The PATRIOT Act comes to cryptocurrency - page 6.

cryptosize

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Quote from: digaran on October 23, 2023, 03:29:45 PM

So FATF is coming to crypto after all these years, finally they get it. This makes you wonder, it's not the world elites who run the global policy making machine but rather a bunch of mentally happy people, after 14 years they got this idea.

If anyone doesn't know what is FATF, it is Financial Action Task Force, established to control the "money" in the world, meaning that they would want to know about a transaction even if it was just to buy a cup of coffee, just to make sure there is no money laundering and terrorist financing involved. If you wanna know whether they monitor all your transactions or not, check to see if your government has signed up to join this task force or not, if they have, you are already exposed.
Welcome to 2030 agenda(a plan for the "new world order", or "novus ordo seclorum").

Please don't be a conspiracy theorist/doomsayer. Roll Eyes

Governments care for their people (according to some people). Cheesy

franky1

legendary

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comments for proposals should be to make bitcoin a private property again not a legal currency. then all these financial jurisdictions cant gain traction
(EG auctioned art is treated differently than currency)

there is no point playing whack a mole of certain definitions of certain niches whist still within the currency jurisdiction., if the overall definition of the whole still gives governments chances to change currency definitions 90 days after x or y.. you just end up in a endless loop of fighting

this also goes towards certain idols of a subnetwork. if they define their units of account as currency. and route it for a fee. they too become a MSB/MTS needing MSB/MTS licence

so redefine your unit of account to not be currency, but instead property. and define the utility of routing in a way that does not fit the definitions of a MSB/MTS

there were good reasons why governments were helpless and unable to do anything with bitcoin in 2009-2013... LEARN WHY

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: coolcoinz on October 23, 2023, 02:35:33 PM

Anyway, the system can be "cheated" as the limits aren't per day, but per transaction, so it only makes things annoying, but not impossible to accomplish Wink

Well, that's already covered under this proposal. This would be classified as "splitting CVC for transmittal and transmitting the CVC through a series of independent transactions", which by their new definition counts as mixing. And I know you are speaking about EUR, but this legislation will absolutely spread beyond the US and affect the whole world soon enough.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 23, 2023, 03:09:03 PM

Is there anything the people outside the US can do to help? Or do comments get submitted eponymous?

Spread the word.

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on October 23, 2023, 03:50:55 PM

If you are using Bitcoin the way the cypherpunks envisioned decentralized money, then Bitcoin fulfills its goal of being decentralized money.

Well yes, but that is missing the point. This bill will not affected me directly since I have never and will never use any KYC platform. But it will absolutely force more service providers down the KYC route, it will massively increase the barriers for new small businesses and service providers to start accepting bitcoin, it will turn many people off of bitcoin altogether, and it will create a two tiered system between "government approved bitcoin" and "free bitcoin". All of this is terrible for bitcoin on the whole.

Comments on the proposal are now open, and remain so until January 22nd: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/10/23/2023-23449/proposal-of-special-measure-regarding-convertible-virtual-currency-mixing-as-a-class-of-transactions#

nutildah

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The good news is the US government won't have the manpower to enforce compliance of such regulations to a T. They can only threaten non-complying entities with sanctions and criminal charges, which likely won't come to fruition unless something like the Lazarus Group is using said entity to launder funds.

What we see time and again is that investigations & raids are only conducted when the government has a strong chance of recouping their expenses... This goes all the way back to the Silk Road bust and continues through the ChipMixer takedown. This is also how the IRS operates: unless the government can more than recoup its cost, an audit is unlikely to take place.

Quote from: minor-transgression on October 24, 2023, 01:35:23 AM

I'll misquote Greg Carlin "Think of how brainwashed the average person is, and then realise that half the population are more brainwashed than that."

Funny enough George (not Greg) Carlin hated it when people accredited him on the internet for stuff he didn't say, but you haven't received any sMerits yet so I sent you a couple of them.

franky1

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Quote from: mvdheuvel1983 on October 24, 2023, 02:07:40 AM

o_e_l_e_o this so called PATRIOT Act should be called the DRACONIAN Act because that is exactly what it is. The PATRIOT Act does exactly the opposite of what patriot means and so this is why I think the DRACONIAN acts fits it better.

patriot does not support "freedom"/individualism
patriot does support the country. aka government

EG an ex-pat american considers themselves american. but lives in another country. so is not supporting the american economy nor paying american tax nor voting nor many things

an ex-pat supports freedom/individualism more than a patriot

when you notice patriots singing to a flag and declaring their allegiance to the government.. you soon see what patriot really means

mvdheuvel1983

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o_e_l_e_o this so called PATRIOT Act should be called the DRACONIAN Act because that is exactly what it is. The PATRIOT Act does exactly the opposite of what patriot means and so this is why I think the DRACONIAN acts fits it better.

To explain this better for those who may not understand it, if this law is eventually passed you cannot do simple bitcoin transactions which you normally do without raising an eye brow from the US government. This simple transactions like sending bitcoin from multiple exchanges to your hardware wallet. Once the US government suspects you, they can confiscate your bitcoin and it is on you to prove that the bitcoin is yours and isn't used for laundering or terrorism financing.

The US is dong this to try and save the US dollar. People are dumping the global reserve asset and this piece of regulation is a desperate measure to try and save it. This is basically their attempt to control and even close the exits. Which is why they want us to own bitcoin through brokerage like the bitcoin ETF which is not real bitcoin and also to only have it on exchanges so they easily freeze it whenever they like.

All bitcoiners must fight against this vehemently.

minor-transgression

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I'll misquote Greg Carlin "Think of how brainwashed the average person is, and then realise that half the population are more brainwashed than that."

If that half of the population got a text message letting them know they could watch themselves being auctioned online, they'd be over the moon if they fetched a higher price than the guy (or gal) before or after.

They'd be texting their mates to let them know their good news.

After that they'd be only too happy to have their number tattooed across their forehead, and demand the the Government provide the service for cheap.

Zaguru12

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Quote from: ?? on ??

It can't be denied that most of us here still don't like giving KYCs to centralized exchanges; even I don't want it either. It's just that, due to the situation and opportunity, we still can't avoid submitting our KYC because we have something that needs to be released to an exchange that is under this regulation, or else we won't be able to release our money on their exchange site platform, right?

By opportunity I think you meant high liquidity, this simply can be solved with if majority value privacy and decides to move towards the decentralized exchanges, this will reduce the liquidity on them and increase more liquidity on the decentralized exchanges. There are also CEX that do not require KYC at first, you can simply make use of them but be rest assured that they will definitely come back one day to ask for full KYC and as such do not leave your coins on them.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Now, the question is: who really controls our KYCs? Is the exchange centralized, or has it passed the requirements so that they can operate legally under the government of a country where their business is located internationally? Isn't it clear that the government is really in control because they don't like the decentralized system?

Needless to ask, it is simple, before you can get the autonomy to operate legally you need to be regulated and how is that done. The government will need the data of its citizens using your platform. Look at the reports of users funds that are got freezed by government, almost all of them are traced to their centralized exchange account.

Despairo

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I think the slogan of "Buy Bitcoin" is over, we need a new slogan "Protect User's Privacy". Sooner or later US will crackdown the P2P exchanges that not comply with the regulation.

Quote from: suzanne5223 on October 23, 2023, 02:27:36 PM

this is also one of the reasons why I am scared of the Bitcoin spot ETF despite its going to increase the crypto market cap because it could be the weapon to treats bitcoin as non-fungible or I am I the only thinking about this?

People must be know if Bitcoin ETF is an IOU, where they not hold the real coins and trust the institutions to hold their coins. I think it's not a problem as long as people fine with that, this what freedom to choose is where you can choose to trust your coins with institutions or buy a real coins and hold it in your own wallet.

Upgrade00

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on October 23, 2023, 03:50:55 PM

It doesn't really matter as long as they don't force miners to censor non-compliant transactions. They can't stop anyone from using privacy tools, doing p2p transactions, paying to services that don't comply, etc. If you are using Bitcoin the way the cypherpunks envisioned decentralized money, then Bitcoin fulfills its goal of being decentralized money.

• They CAN start a crackdown on privacy tools for whatever boogey reason,
• They can do the same to P2P platforms and any other service that doesn't comply for the same non existent reason.

If this is allowed the cost of privacy will keep growing until those seeking it are considered to be doing something illegal.

Quote from: ?? on ??

It's just that, due to the situation and opportunity, we still can't avoid submitting our KYC because we have something that needs to be released to an exchange that is under this regulation, or else we won't be able to release our money on their exchange site platform, right?

There are a couple of non KYC compliant options that you can use.

pooya87

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In my opinion the biggest threat that United States poses to Bitcoin is not through centralized services (that's not new anyways), the biggest threat is to the network itself through 3 things: (1) miners (2) nodes (3) developers.
We've already seen their actions in (1) and (3) like the shenanigans of MARA pool and bringing in bitcoin developers to CIA headquarters for questioning and god knows what else! I still don't know of any case where they tried getting to nodes, specially since a lot of them are running on centralized servers such as Amazon and other remote servers in EU that US can easily influence/exert its power.

So although warning individuals about using centralized KYCed crap services is good and we should continue doing that but I believe the more important concern should be the 3 points above, specially the hashrate that has been growing in US or more importantly any mining pool that is geographically located in a place where US can control (US mainland and colonies).

examplens

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Quote from: apogio on October 23, 2023, 03:25:17 PM

3 months ago, I have decided to permanently delete my Binance account. Meanwhile, I havent used binance since 2022.

The majority of my actions and decisions are based upon this forum.

Just one more note to anyone like me having coins from KYC exchanges. It is ok to have them, just don't mix them with the non-kyc ones. Privacy is everything. If you want to get rid of your KYC coins, that's even better and you will find many ideas in the forum.

I don't know if you know, but the Mixtum which you promote in your signature, enter Bitcoins into their service that originate from exchanges Binance, OKEx, DigiFinex, Cryptonex etc...
It is highly likely that some payments came to you from one of those KYC exchanges.
https://mixtum.io/#how

Alpha Marine

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People have become so used to the usual fiat/banking/centralized systems to the extent that they don't even see anything wrong with using centralized exchanges.
Even if your privacy means nothing to you, why are you so comfortable keeping your funds in a centralized exchange?
How do they sleep peacefully at night knowing they could wake up to devastating news about that exchange or that the exchange has frozen their account or the coins in it?
We don't have to be nonchalant about things like this.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 23, 2023, 09:39:09 AM

And if you happen to live in the US, start contacting your representatives about this draconian piece of legislation

The sad part is that, if this works in the US, many countries would follow this path.

Zaguru12

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Quote from: Upgrade00 on October 23, 2023, 09:58:02 AM

The propaganda machines has been working for several years now to changed the narrative is on Bitcoin and privacy, and they've done such a good job at it that even some Bitcoin users start asking the question of 'why someone wants privacy?' and even those who do not ask the question and sees nothing wrong in wanting privacy does not d anything to protect theirs or teach others how to.

If you ask people who do not have any problem with KYC exchanges you will definitely get the answer that it is use to reduce the risk of crimes or can be used to track down people using it to commit crimes ( at least that’s what the government wants them to believe). The same government that can’t tame down crimes done with fiat and transactions done through banks that have almost all users data.

People will tell you that without centralized exchanges they can exchange their funds and if you suggest decentralized exchanges for them the next question goes to the point that decentralized exchanges do not have much liquidity compared to their counter part. How will they get the liquidity when are busy using the centralized ones, it is not that this liquidity is something that is bought, once we migrate and use more decentralized exchange and give it more liquidity we will be at least saving bitcoin primary purpose which is privacy

Quote from: apogio on October 23, 2023, 03:25:17 PM

Just one more note to anyone like me having coins from KYC exchanges. It is ok to have them, just don't mix them with the non-kyc ones. Privacy is everything. If you want to get rid of your KYC coins, that's even better and you will find many ideas in the forum.

It is not ok to have them as long as they are linked to you. Separating them wouldn’t matter much as they could still be traced to you ones they exists, get total rid of them either by mixing them or converting them to fiat and then buy those coins back from decentralized exchanges.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 23, 2023, 09:39:09 AM

It is clear the US government want the only way to use bitcoin to be through fully KYCed centralized exchanges. They are trying their hardest to absorb bitcoin in to the existing fiat system and surveillance state, and destroy the very thing that bitcoin is.

It doesn't really matter as long as they don't force miners to censor non-compliant transactions. They can't stop anyone from using privacy tools, doing p2p transactions, paying to services that don't comply, etc. If you are using Bitcoin the way the cypherpunks envisioned decentralized money, then Bitcoin fulfills its goal of being decentralized money.

digaran

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🖤😏

So FATF is coming to crypto after all these years, finally they get it. This makes you wonder, it's not the world elites who run the global policy making machine but rather a bunch of mentally happy people, after 14 years they got this idea.

If anyone doesn't know what is FATF, it is Financial Action Task Force, established to control the "money" in the world, meaning that they would want to know about a transaction even if it was just to buy a cup of coffee, just to make sure there is no money laundering and terrorist financing involved. If you wanna know whether they monitor all your transactions or not, check to see if your government has signed up to join this task force or not, if they have, you are already exposed.
Welcome to 2030 agenda(a plan for the "new world order", or "novus ordo seclorum").

apogio

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 23, 2023, 09:39:09 AM

Close your KYCed accounts and refuse to ever complete KYC again. Use privacy tools. Anonymize your coins.

3 months ago, I have decided to permanently delete my Binance account. Meanwhile, I havent used binance since 2022.

The majority of my actions and decisions are based upon this forum.

Just one more note to anyone like me having coins from KYC exchanges. It is ok to have them, just don't mix them with the non-kyc ones. Privacy is everything. If you want to get rid of your KYC coins, that's even better and you will find many ideas in the forum.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

This bill is beyond insane. It literally tries to discriminate anyone owning Bitcoin, unless they're running a fully KYC-operating centralized exchange. And the genius part, is that it is backed by the good assumption that the majority of Bitcoin users store their coins there, so it won't affect them (as it would if they made it officially illegal).

Every true Bitcoiner living in the US should take action.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 23, 2023, 02:00:33 PM

Once this proposal is formally published, there will be a 90 day window to submit comments as a first step to legally challenging this nonsense.

Is there anything the people outside the US can do to help? Or do comments get submitted eponymous?

Upgrade00

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Quote from: coolcoinz on October 23, 2023, 02:35:33 PM

Fortunately you can still exchange EUR 1k per transaction with no KYC here. Used to be 10k, now it's 1k, so the noose is tightening, but it's going to be very hard for them to lower this limit, as this would have to come with fiat currency withdrawal limits at ATMs and all that.

It just seems that the safest option is to use an exchange that allows the freedom to trade anonymously and not to play around the regulation as it gets stricter. There are decentralized options that require no KYC that one can opt for.

Quote from: coolcoinz on October 23, 2023, 02:35:33 PM

Anyway, the system can be "cheated" as the limits aren't per day, but per transaction, so it only makes things annoying, but not impossible to accomplish Wink

If someone spammed this system with multiple maximum order transactions the exchange will very likely flag such an account after a while and freeze what's left on it.

coolcoinz

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I don't use centralized exchanges. Haven't done so for the last 5+ year. Fortunately you can still exchange EUR 1k per transaction with no KYC here. Used to be 10k, now it's 1k, so the noose is tightening, but it's going to be very hard for them to lower this limit, as this would have to come with fiat currency withdrawal limits at ATMs and all that.
Anyway, the system can be "cheated" as the limits aren't per day, but per transaction, so it only makes things annoying, but not impossible to accomplish Wink

As for the US, they're obviously trying to attack bitcoin by making the public think that it's used by terrorists, and since there's a war in Palestine and Palestinians are being labeled as terrorists, it all makes sense. There's always going to be the right side of the conflict. The side that pays more, that can offer more if it wins, and so on.
This is just a proposal and there were many similar proposals in the past that did not get approved, so time will tell how this goes.

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