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Topic: The PATRIOT Act comes to cryptocurrency - page 4. (Read 2048 times)

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
October 27, 2023, 09:41:58 AM
#69
As a reminder:

Any further nonsense from franky1 will be deleted. Please keep this on-topic.

You can see DooMADs post here for an explanation why: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.63048733



There are now over 120 comments on the proposal, but still only two are viewable. I wonder why they have chosen to withhold so many of the comments?

which will give more value to the BTC you actually own.
Maybe, but it still creates a two tier system which is bad for bitcoin on the whole, even if I never interact with any of these custodial services.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 1060
October 27, 2023, 08:57:47 AM
#68
Actually owning your own bitcoin won't be allowed

which will give more value to the BTC you actually own.

If you want no traces left in the fiat system, then cash in person is the best way to do it, yes. I've done this for years. It works well.

not very easy, at least not everywhere on the planet.

the share holders just buy and sell shares into and out of fiat. without ever touching bitcoin

so? why can't they freely do so if the wish? I mean it's their problem after all. Meanwhile, we can hold our own keys and keep doing what we want.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
October 27, 2023, 08:38:09 AM
#67
The Bitcoin ETF will work just like IOU because the institution and the government never like decentralization.
This is clearly the future the government want for bitcoin. The majority just buy ETF IOUs. Those who do actually buy bitcoin can only do through via KYCed exchanges, and their bitcoin can only move from there to other KYCed exchanges. Actually owning your own bitcoin won't be allowed - after all, what are you trying to hide? Roll Eyes

But can the IRS be trusted that it won't share sensitive information with its fellow government agencies?
They will, of course. All branches of the government freely share all the information they have on you with each other.

are we then limited to the option of transacting face to face and on cold cash basis?
If you want no traces left in the fiat system, then cash in person is the best way to do it, yes. I've done this for years. It works well.
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 663
October 26, 2023, 11:36:20 PM
#66
Yeah its good to do peer to peer transaction if there's a lot of people using crypto on where are but if there's few people using it then we don't have a choice but to engage with those Kyc compliant platforms. Its hard situation to get track but we can't do anything if the only option we have is to engage with those KYC platforms.
You don't have to trade through direct P2P with real people, you can trade through DEX or no KYC P2P. I'm not sure where you come from, but you can useBisq (mostly trade for EUR, USD, BRL, GBP, CAD, AUD, or CZK), you can also use Agoradesk since it's wider than Bisq.

Because peer-to-peer transactions which involve the likes of PayPal, bank transfers, and the rest of online payment options are almost pointless because they always ask for personal information.
Are you trade big amount of money? I never face any problem when deal with P2P trade by using bank transfers, usually I cash out my money once a month.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1860
October 26, 2023, 09:29:11 PM
#65
I'm curious now, will you, then, encourage that people don't declare their Bitcoin holdings?
I would encourage people, as I have always done, do trade exclusively peer to peer and to never complete KYC anywhere, so there are no third parties which can track all your bitcoin and share that information with anyone they like.

But can the IRS be trusted that it won't share sensitive information with its fellow government agencies? And should we decide that we won't be declaring any Bitcoin holdings, which I am doing right now, and trade exclusively peer-to-peer, are we then limited to the option of transacting face to face and on cold cash basis? Because peer-to-peer transactions which involve the likes of PayPal, bank transfers, and the rest of online payment options are almost pointless because they always ask for personal information.
hero member
Activity: 2660
Merit: 651
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October 26, 2023, 02:16:16 PM
#64
this is also one of the reasons why I am scared of the Bitcoin spot ETF despite its going to increase the crypto market cap because it could be the weapon to treats bitcoin as non-fungible or I am I the only thinking about this?
People must be know if Bitcoin ETF is an IOU, where they not hold the real coins and trust the institutions to hold their coins. I think it's not a problem as long as people fine with that, this what freedom to choose is where you can choose to trust your coins with institutions or buy a real coins and hold it in your own wallet.
The Bitcoin ETF will work just like IOU because the institution and the government never like decentralization. Besides, I read an article today where BlackRock said it will seed its Bitcoin ETF with its own fund.
As you said, it's a matter of choosing but the way their Bitcoin spot ETF will be operated is going to treat BTC as non-fungible, and also believe very soon KYC will be made compulsory for every crypto-related transaction after the ETF approval.
sr. member
Activity: 1022
Merit: 363
October 26, 2023, 06:31:58 AM
#63
I would encourage people, as I have always done, do trade exclusively peer to peer and to never complete KYC anywhere, so there are no third parties which can track all your bitcoin and share that information with anyone they like.

Yeah its good to do peer to peer transaction if there's a lot of people using crypto on where are but if there's few people using it then we don't have a choice but to engage with those Kyc compliant platforms. Its hard situation to get track but we can't do anything if the only option we have is to engage with those KYC platforms.

Everything I've seen come out of the EU in relation to bitcoin has been just as bad/stupid/misguided/idiotic as what our government in the US spits out. This kind of mass surveillance of bitcoin will only spread if we don't fight to put a stop to it.

Just like they make it a normal habit to spit some bad words against bitcoin and we can't do anything with those old dudes believing some negative about its existence, but for sure they will eat all the words they spit against it once bitcoin will get massive adaption and for sure this guys will change their minds especially they see its real potential.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
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October 26, 2023, 05:38:44 AM
#62
~snip~
A much easier option than that in the short term is just to close all your KYCed accounts and use bitcoin peer to peer as it was intended in the first place. Long term I would say leaving the US is a good plan for a whole host of reasons, given the mass surveillance machine the US government has turned in to.

If someone decides to leave, it would be very good to do a thorough research about the country to which they want to move, because although surveillance in the US went to a completely different level after the terrorist attacks, it is not better in other parts of the world either.

I watched a documentary about how the police in the UK use some kind of AI for facial recognition, and with the help of cameras on vehicles, they try to detect potential terrorists, and the vehicles with these cameras are parked in the middle of city centers where thousands of people pass by. Imagine you're walking with your family/friends and then the police grab you and take you for an extra check because the AI has marked you as suspicious and all the other people are looking at you and wondering if you're really a terrorist.

What I want to say is that there are much worse places in the world when it comes to limiting and endangering human freedoms than is the case in the US, only that a perception has been created that Big Brother is still the biggest in the world's largest democracy.
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
October 26, 2023, 02:14:10 AM
#61
I think it's a really cool idea and we should try to find a way to do it for this act too.
I don't think so. They will simply ignore any AI generated content, and all it does is water down genuine comments and complaints.

I'm pretty sure a lot of normal people are going to fall into a quagmire while trying to write a proper formal letter to a government entity. So do you really think something like the following would be ignored?

Quote from: treasuryraid.lexpunk.army
Dear Internal Revenue Service and Treasury Department,

I am writing to express my concerns about the proposed regulations outlined in the PDF document titled "Gross Proceeds and Basis Reporting by Brokers and Determination of Amount Realized and Basis for Digital Asset Transactions." Specifically, I would like to address the topics of privacy and poorly defined terms.

Firstly, I am deeply concerned about the privacy and safety implications of allowing multiple third parties to have access to my sensitive financial data and social security number. The proposed regulations would require brokers, including digital asset trading platforms, digital asset payment processors, and certain digital asset hosted wallets, to file information returns and furnish payee statements on dispositions of digital assets. This would potentially expose my personal information to numerous entities, which raises significant privacy and security risks.

Furthermore, I find the definitions of certain terms in the proposed regulations to be poorly defined. For instance, terms such as "platform," "software," and "ledger" are left undefined, leaving room for multiple interpretations. Additionally, the definitions of terms like "wallet" and "validator" do not accurately describe their technical meanings, leading to potential confusion and inconsistent application of the regulations.

I believe it is crucial for regulations of this nature to provide clear and precise definitions to ensure consistency and understanding among all stakeholders. Vague and loosely defined terms can lead to misinterpretation and hinder compliance with the regulations.

In conclusion, I urge you to reconsider the implications on privacy and security that may arise from these proposed regulations. Additionally, I strongly recommend providing clearly defined terms to avoid confusion and promote consistent interpretation and application.

Thank you for considering my concerns. I trust that you will take these issues into account when finalizing the regulations.

Sincerely,


There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with this when I look at it from a first glance. Also it's not like it's serving the same letter to everybody, the sentences and vocabulary are slightly different for each.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
October 26, 2023, 02:08:27 AM
#60
I think it's a really cool idea and we should try to find a way to do it for this act too.
I don't think so. They will simply ignore any AI generated content, and all it does is water down genuine comments and complaints.

I'm curious now, will you, then, encourage that people don't declare their Bitcoin holdings?
I would encourage people, as I have always done, do trade exclusively peer to peer and to never complete KYC anywhere, so there are no third parties which can track all your bitcoin and share that information with anyone they like.

The strange thing is that Europe took the lead in this before the United States, which is now lagging behind.
Everything I've seen come out of the EU in relation to bitcoin has been just as bad/stupid/misguided/idiotic as what our government in the US spits out. This kind of mass surveillance of bitcoin will only spread if we don't fight to put a stop to it.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 2017
October 25, 2023, 10:53:36 PM
#59
Well this is something along the same lines of what is underway in Europe and what I talked about back in the day.

Goodbye, privacy, goodbye, it was nice while it lasted.

The strange thing is that Europe took the lead in this before the United States, which is now lagging behind. But yes, the idea is to try to control Bitcoin transactions as banking transactions are controlled, and in Europe the last thing I read is that by January 2026 the full exchange of information between countries should be implemented.

To all this, apart from the advice given in the thread, such as not using CEX, I would like to add that you should use cash as much as possible when you have to pay with fiat. Taking care of privacy as much as possible with Bitcoin and then paying for everything with your smartwatch is not very coherent.
sr. member
Activity: 1554
Merit: 334
October 25, 2023, 10:36:45 PM
#58
Is leaving the US a possible option?
A much easier option than that in the short term is just to close all your KYCed accounts and use bitcoin peer to peer as it was intended in the first place. Long term I would say leaving the US is a good plan for a whole host of reasons, given the mass surveillance machine the US government has turned in to.
People should have left a long time ago if you asked me, Snowden's leaks should have been the lynchpin to the decision that people should leave US, but it just fizzled out through the years and people just moved on but the mass surveillance was still going on which is scary but if we're talking about mass surveillance, I don't think that China and other totalitarian regimes around the world would probably shame US in their mass surveillance programs, if only Bush didn't masterminded the 9/11 attacks, this whole thing wouldn't happen.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1860
October 25, 2023, 07:11:13 PM
#57
Is this somehow expected, that at some point this would come? As the adoption or exploitation of Bitcoin grows, so will the enmity between the technology and the government?

Just a couple of weeks ago, in his Bitcoin Amsterdam speech, Snowden mentioned how he used Bitcoin to pay for the servers that would host the classified information that he shared with certain people.

I can also remember Andreas Antonopoulos mentioning how the efficiency of Bitcoin as money makes it desirable by both upright and crooked men.

And so as the volume of transactions grow and the number of users increase which, of course, include bad actors, the approach of the government against it also grows in severity.

I'm curious now, will you, then, encourage that people don't declare their Bitcoin holdings? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seemed to have advised people quite a while ago to just declare what they have to avoid possible troubles with the IRS.
hero member
Activity: 1750
Merit: 589
October 25, 2023, 04:12:22 PM
#56
https://freedom.tech/patriot-act-comes-to-cryptocurrency/

A fantastic article authored by Seth For Privacy (https://nitter.cz/sethforprivacy), who is the Head of Strategy & Marketing for Foundation Devices, known for their Passport hardware wallet.

As I've mentioned in another thread, and as Seth explains in this article, this newest piece of legislation is an outright attack on bitcoin. It is clear the US government want the only way to use bitcoin to be through fully KYCed centralized exchanges. They are trying their hardest to absorb bitcoin in to the existing fiat system and surveillance state, and destroy the very thing that bitcoin is.

What can you do about it? Get your coins off of any centralized exchange and in to your own wallet. Close your KYCed accounts and refuse to ever complete KYC again. Use privacy tools. Anonymize your coins. Refuse to use any service or product which treats bitcoin as non-fungible and discriminates against or censors certain coins. Bitcoin was not made to become an off-shoot of the fiat system, to be another tool by which the government can can surveil, censor, and control. And if you happen to live in the US, start contacting your representatives about this draconian piece of legislation.

https://bitcoiner.guide/nokyconly/
https://kycnot.me/



Spam will be deleted.
What part of "Anonymous" can these mofos in the government not understand? We've been at it for years now, these people are so concerned about "the dangers that crypto could pose in the AML integrity" that they laser-focused on regulating bitcoin instead of actually finding the time to crack down on industries where money laundering does happen (ahem, charitable organizations, carpet resellers, music industry, everything else where you can create clean money). I sometimes feel like we should just take our business elsewhere cause as long as these senile retards remain seated they will continue to do the most belligerent shit you could ever think of. There's harmony and peace with having a little anonymity, it's been like that for years now, why is it that they are pushing to do it NOW?
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
October 25, 2023, 03:26:10 PM
#55

One new thing I want to note about this:

It has come to my attention that there is a similar draconian bill attempting to be passed by the IRS that would essentially require all crypto to be KYC'ed for all transactions to be allowed.

Some cool dudes made a site where you can submit an AI-generated complaint comment to the paper: https://treasuryraid.lexpunk.army/

I think it's a really cool idea and we should try to find a way to do it for this act too.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
October 25, 2023, 02:17:19 PM
#54
Sounds like "Monero above all", when it comes to privacy.
Pretty much.

Monero has a marketcap of $2.89 billion and the 24th (as of today) on the lists of coins with the higher marketcap.
As far as I am concerned, the price of Monero is even less relevant than the price of bitcoin - it addresses a specific need, and it has been proven over years to work and work well. When Bitcoin fell ~80% I didn't care because the fundamentals hadn't changed. If Monero falls ~80%, the same applies.

Is leaving the US a possible option?
A much easier option than that in the short term is just to close all your KYCed accounts and use bitcoin peer to peer as it was intended in the first place. Long term I would say leaving the US is a good plan for a whole host of reasons, given the mass surveillance machine the US government has turned in to.

I guess they're doing this so that they can tax everyone who is hodling Bitcoin and that's the worst thing they can do with Bitcoiners.
They are doing it so all bitcoin transactions can be easily monitored and surveilled. A population under constant surveillance is a population which is easy to manipulate and control, a population which will never dare to step out of line.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 5637
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October 25, 2023, 10:07:34 AM
#53
I downloaded monero (not the full blockchain), out of curiousity. I used it through coin exchange in order to get rid of some UTXOs. My question remains: why is monero not very widespread? I would argue, according to all the comments and posts I have seen, that monero is a "good" coin.

I don't use CEX, so I don't know what the situation is with the most famous ones when it comes to that coin, but what I do know is that a few years ago in the EU there was increased pressure on the so-called "privacy coins" and that all local crypto exchanges in my country over night removed that coin (and some others) from their trading pairs. Given that people in most cases buy cryptocurrencies because they want to profit from them, privacy is not something that is valued, especially if it is also marked by the authorities as something bad.



I read the entire article from OP and I can only say that I am not at all surprised that all this is happening, because any decentralization that goes in the direction of finance is literally a thorn in the side of every government that wants to have absolute control over every individual and his life. Although there is quite clear evidence that cryptocurrencies are to a very small extent responsible for financing terrorism or money laundering (according to what Chainalysis claims) and that there should be much more focus on the classic methods used by terrorists/criminals. Unable to admit that their (FIAT) system is as full of holes as Swiss cheese, some governments look for the culprit on the completely wrong side, and it's even easier if that someone might not even defend himself.
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 4085
Farewell o_e_l_e_o
October 25, 2023, 10:04:01 AM
#52
If we search, we will find that some of the mixing service providers accused in the above list are present in this forum, and according to the page --->  https://bitcointalk.org/privacy.php,


Quote
Bitcointalk.org is in US jurisdiction, and is subject to US subpoenas, wiretap orders, preservation orders (which would negate the above retention rules), and similar. Furthermore, our service providers could also be subject to similar orders without our knowledge. Note that we consider PMs to require a warrant in order to be released.
theymos was summoned to US subpoenas after the Silk Road investigation.
Bitcoin Forum Bitcointalk.org Receives and Answers First Subpoena from DOJ.

DPR subpoena.
Quote
This is the first government request/inquiry I've received related to Ulbricht's case. I have received a few other inquiries for other cases.

All advertisements in Bitcointalk, in my understanding, falls into Section 230 of the 1996 Communications Decency Act.

Section 230: Everything you must know about the rule that shaped the internet.

Quote
According to Section 230 of the 1996 Communications Decency Act, no provider or user of an interactive computer service will be regarded as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 672
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October 25, 2023, 10:03:36 AM
#51
I really don't know why they want Bitcoiners to be trapped in the traditional banking system is it that they don't want us to be independent and Kyced thing could be pretty much unacceptable for many Bitcoiners who don't want to reveal their identity in public. I guess they're doing this so that they can tax everyone who is hodling Bitcoin and that's the worst thing they can do with Bitcoiners.

People love and use Bitcoin because of its decentralized nature and now they want to take away that freedom from us. I'm not sure but I guess that all KYCed centralized exchanges have accepted their proposal of sharing the users complete data to the governments and that's why now they want to every Bitcoin holder to use Bitcoin via centralized exchanges.
sr. member
Activity: 1554
Merit: 334
October 25, 2023, 09:59:01 AM
#50
Is leaving the US a possible option? Because I've replied in an earlier post that being an expatriate working outside of the US but still making US pay grade and possibly living in other country might be an option against this act against cryptocurrency. The Carribean might be a good option, it's near the US and it's outside so you can still visit family or are they still able to tax you even if you live there?
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