This Bitfinex Credit Bubble cannot end well - page 28.

CEG5952

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Buy and sell bitcoins,

Quote from: Coinfan on July 15, 2014, 11:10:18 PM

However, some members have checked the Hong-Kong registry before the information was deleted. It doesn't seem proper to publish it, but I wonder if someone is willing to share it in a PM?

What's the problem with publishing it exactly? If it was public information, I don't see why it would be an issue. In fact, I'm not sure why they would delete it. I know when I search dissolved/suspended corporations in my work, the records are retained. Out of curiosity, what are you looking for?

Coinfan

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Speaking about running away and since this thread is becoming the unofficial (and unmoderated) thread on Bitfinex...

The Hong-Kong corporation registry allows searching on a corporation (https://www.eregistry.gov.hk/icris-ext/apps/por01a/index#) and getting all the information they have on the partners, but it seems Bitfinex (iFinex Inc.) no longer is incorporated there, now it's at the British Virgin Islands (BVI), as they state in their home page.

The BVI Registrar website (http://www.bvifsc.vg/) only has information about regulated entities, not about the other more than a million corporations they incorporated.

However, some members have checked the Hong-Kong registry before the information was deleted. It doesn't seem proper to publish it, but I wonder if someone is willing to share it in a PM?

Coinfan

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The words were reiterated a few days ago, but are just words:

"No we continue to cover the default of traders. Hence our changes to ensure no default happens" (http://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinMarkets/comments/2akrbp/psa_bfx_is_making_some_changes_to_margin_trading/ciw69d5).

In the end, the guaranty against default is reversing trades.

But if there were defaults, despite a reversal of trades, and they didn't honored this promise, they would have problems to stay in business. The damaged to their reputation would be heavy.

Therefore, in face of the losses, they will balance what is best: to pay and keep in business; or, end the business and run away.

If I recall well, it was in April 2013, because of the crash and connection problems with Gox, since it wasn't possible to liquidate positions, they end up paying the lenders losses, even without any promise in that sense. Of course, it was a relatively small value. Now we are talking about millions of potential losses.

CEG5952

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Buy and sell bitcoins,

"Effectively insured." No, they do not guarantee lenders a damn thing. And do the math, 15% insurance off swap fees vs. actual swaps....

thezerg

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Quote from: hollowframe on July 15, 2014, 07:40:16 PM

Quote from: thezerg on July 15, 2014, 12:29:04 PM

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 12:06:29 PM

Quote from: fonzie on July 15, 2014, 04:11:03 AM

Quote from: urwhatuknow on July 13, 2014, 09:46:58 AM

We might increase leverage in the future if we see our swap market is cooling off a little.
For the time being we believe it's a good idea, for the sake of traders, liquidity providers and the bitcoin market to slow down a little the growth of our swap total market.

I hope this helps.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

"Earlier today, Mt. Gox halted trading, saying the market needed to "cool down""

I knew i heard that phrase somewhere else before... Cheesy

Hehe, I don't know about the validity of that analogy, but this is a pretty clear acknowledgement by Bitfinex that swaps/leverage have gotten out of hand vs. liquidity.

"cool down" is a very common phrase... bitfinex is guaranteeing the lender's principal, AND it schedules the margin calls. In other words, bitfinex can choose to not execute a forced sale if it wants. So clearly they aren't going to do margin calls so fast that they flash crash to the point where principal is lost because that will be suicide. Its therefore unlikely we'll get a deep flash crash on bitfinex alone... but a flash crash (or even something smaller than a crash) on other exchanges could trigger a big flash crash on bitfinex.

I don't think they guarantee the lenders' principle. Do you have a link/quote to back this up? AFAIK lenders are putting their money at risk, although they do have ways that should protect your money.

You used to be able to choose "insured" or "uninsured" swaps. They sent an announcement around a month or so ago increasing their take and saying that they will all be "insured" now. You are right, what exactly that means is perhaps unclear.

@Coinfan: I and I'd expect that you don't really know how automatic vs manual it is. However, its not all or nothing... you could do an automatic call until BTC price drops X%, then pause... the human could configure how fast the margin calls are executed... etc.

hollowframe

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Activity: 266

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Quote from: thezerg on July 15, 2014, 12:29:04 PM

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 12:06:29 PM

Quote from: fonzie on July 15, 2014, 04:11:03 AM

Quote from: urwhatuknow on July 13, 2014, 09:46:58 AM

We might increase leverage in the future if we see our swap market is cooling off a little.
For the time being we believe it's a good idea, for the sake of traders, liquidity providers and the bitcoin market to slow down a little the growth of our swap total market.

I hope this helps.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

"Earlier today, Mt. Gox halted trading, saying the market needed to "cool down""

I knew i heard that phrase somewhere else before... Cheesy

Hehe, I don't know about the validity of that analogy, but this is a pretty clear acknowledgement by Bitfinex that swaps/leverage have gotten out of hand vs. liquidity.

"cool down" is a very common phrase... bitfinex is guaranteeing the lender's principal, AND it schedules the margin calls. In other words, bitfinex can choose to not execute a forced sale if it wants. So clearly they aren't going to do margin calls so fast that they flash crash to the point where principal is lost because that will be suicide. Its therefore unlikely we'll get a deep flash crash on bitfinex alone... but a flash crash (or even something smaller than a crash) on other exchanges could trigger a big flash crash on bitfinex.

I don't think they guarantee the lenders' principle. Do you have a link/quote to back this up? AFAIK lenders are putting their money at risk, although they do have ways that should protect your money.

Coinfan

full member

Activity: 653

Merit: 217

The system of liquidation is automatic, not manual.

And they can't risk to convert it to manual, because in a crash they might have dozens of liquidations almost imminent and making each one depending on a human decision means that they will be done at a bigger loss.

manfred

legendary

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Energy is Wealth

Quote from: HarHarHar9965 on July 15, 2014, 02:02:16 PM

LOL, Giancarlo. What a master of public relations that guy is. Anyway, I think you're right MatTheCat. Next exchange fiasco has got BFX written all over it....

+1

HarHarHar9965

hero member

Activity: 994

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LOL, Giancarlo. What a master of public relations that guy is. Anyway, I think you're right MatTheCat. Next exchange fiasco has got BFX written all over it....

MatTheCat

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Merit: 1000

Quote from: fonzie on July 15, 2014, 12:32:05 PM

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 12:06:29 PM

Quote from: fonzie on July 15, 2014, 04:11:03 AM

Quote from: urwhatuknow on July 13, 2014, 09:46:58 AM

We might increase leverage in the future if we see our swap market is cooling off a little.
For the time being we believe it's a good idea, for the sake of traders, liquidity providers and the bitcoin market to slow down a little the growth of our swap total market.

I hope this helps.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

"Earlier today, Mt. Gox halted trading, saying the market needed to "cool down""

I knew i heard that phrase somewhere else before... Cheesy

Hehe, I don't know about the validity of that analogy, but this is a pretty clear acknowledgement by Bitfinex that swaps/leverage have gotten out of hand vs. liquidity.

Well, 2 weeks ago they(Bitfinex) called the assumption of the OP "FUD". How fast things can change....

Quote from: urwhatuknow on June 27, 2014, 09:35:05 AM

Guys

Since when so called "moderators" are starting FUD threads?

Cui prodest?

Ask yourself this simple question and if your IQ is not lower than your shoe size you'll come up with the right conclusion.

Have a good day and a great weekend

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

Yep.

Bitfinex will be central to next Bitcoin disaster.

Won't try to claim any soothsaying rights on this one as loads of people have been saying the same thing all over the internet.

Bitfinex = Hookey as fuck and probably out of their depth..........sounds all to similar to another well known French run Bitcoin exchange based in the Far East that is sadly no longer with us.

hodap

full member

Activity: 306

Merit: 102

Quote from: nrd525 on July 14, 2014, 08:02:50 PM

Apparently BitVC has 1 million CNY lent out (around 150k US).

What is the current rate on lending? And what is the main reason people trust the exchange?

Newbie1022

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

Quote from: fonzie on July 15, 2014, 12:32:05 PM

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 12:06:29 PM

Quote from: fonzie on July 15, 2014, 04:11:03 AM

Quote from: urwhatuknow on July 13, 2014, 09:46:58 AM

We might increase leverage in the future if we see our swap market is cooling off a little.
For the time being we believe it's a good idea, for the sake of traders, liquidity providers and the bitcoin market to slow down a little the growth of our swap total market.

I hope this helps.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

"Earlier today, Mt. Gox halted trading, saying the market needed to "cool down""

I knew i heard that phrase somewhere else before... Cheesy

Hehe, I don't know about the validity of that analogy, but this is a pretty clear acknowledgement by Bitfinex that swaps/leverage have gotten out of hand vs. liquidity.

Well, 2 weeks ago they(Bitfinex) called the assumption of the OP "FUD". How fast things can change....

Quote from: urwhatuknow on June 27, 2014, 09:35:05 AM

Guys

Since when so called "moderators" are starting FUD threads?

Cui prodest?

Ask yourself this simple question and if your IQ is not lower than your shoe size you'll come up with the right conclusion.

Have a good day and a great weekend

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

Wow. They really don't know what they are doing, do they? That messages is eerie to me... has scam written all over it. Anyhow, maybe I am wrong. They should really figure out what the hell they are doing, give everybody a heads up, and honor their commitments.

fonzie

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Moderator

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 12:06:29 PM

Quote from: fonzie on July 15, 2014, 04:11:03 AM

Quote from: urwhatuknow on July 13, 2014, 09:46:58 AM

We might increase leverage in the future if we see our swap market is cooling off a little.
For the time being we believe it's a good idea, for the sake of traders, liquidity providers and the bitcoin market to slow down a little the growth of our swap total market.

I hope this helps.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

"Earlier today, Mt. Gox halted trading, saying the market needed to "cool down""

I knew i heard that phrase somewhere else before... Cheesy

Hehe, I don't know about the validity of that analogy, but this is a pretty clear acknowledgement by Bitfinex that swaps/leverage have gotten out of hand vs. liquidity.

Well, 2 weeks ago they(Bitfinex) called the assumption of the OP "FUD". How fast things can change....

Quote from: urwhatuknow on June 27, 2014, 09:35:05 AM

Guys

Since when so called "moderators" are starting FUD threads?

Cui prodest?

Ask yourself this simple question and if your IQ is not lower than your shoe size you'll come up with the right conclusion.

Have a good day and a great weekend

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

thezerg

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1010

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 12:06:29 PM

Quote from: fonzie on July 15, 2014, 04:11:03 AM

Quote from: urwhatuknow on July 13, 2014, 09:46:58 AM

We might increase leverage in the future if we see our swap market is cooling off a little.
For the time being we believe it's a good idea, for the sake of traders, liquidity providers and the bitcoin market to slow down a little the growth of our swap total market.

I hope this helps.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

"Earlier today, Mt. Gox halted trading, saying the market needed to "cool down""

I knew i heard that phrase somewhere else before... Cheesy

Hehe, I don't know about the validity of that analogy, but this is a pretty clear acknowledgement by Bitfinex that swaps/leverage have gotten out of hand vs. liquidity.

"cool down" is a very common phrase... bitfinex is guaranteeing the lender's principal, AND it schedules the margin calls. In other words, bitfinex can choose to not execute a forced sale if it wants. So clearly they aren't going to do margin calls so fast that they flash crash to the point where principal is lost because that will be suicide. Its therefore unlikely we'll get a deep flash crash on bitfinex alone... but a flash crash (or even something smaller than a crash) on other exchanges could trigger a big flash crash on bitfinex.

CEG5952

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 500

Buy and sell bitcoins,

Quote from: fonzie on July 15, 2014, 04:11:03 AM

Quote from: urwhatuknow on July 13, 2014, 09:46:58 AM

We might increase leverage in the future if we see our swap market is cooling off a little.
For the time being we believe it's a good idea, for the sake of traders, liquidity providers and the bitcoin market to slow down a little the growth of our swap total market.

I hope this helps.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

"Earlier today, Mt. Gox halted trading, saying the market needed to "cool down""

I knew i heard that phrase somewhere else before... Cheesy

Hehe, I don't know about the validity of that analogy, but this is a pretty clear acknowledgement by Bitfinex that swaps/leverage have gotten out of hand vs. liquidity.

Teppino

full member

Activity: 139

Merit: 100

bitcoin hates walls

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 02:42:23 AM

Quote from: FattyMcButterpants on July 15, 2014, 01:21:07 AM

Quote from: shinjikenny123 on July 15, 2014, 01:06:22 AM

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 12:59:11 AM

Quote from: shinjikenny123 on July 15, 2014, 12:44:45 AM

On a normal market, when position gets liquidated, stocks gets sold. End of story.
If bitfinex would rollback/freeze trades, isn't that market manipulation? They're interfering with "the free and fair operation of the market"
Since bitfinex promised to compensate lenders in case of losses because of a crash, they should pay them out of their own pocket. Otherwise, they should let the lenders take the risk.
Those waiting at the buy side never did anything wrong, they placed their buy orders, btc get sold, buyers get their btc.
You shouldn't undo what has been sold. Once it's sold, it's sold! If it has to crash to $1, then let it crash.

As someone who has lost significant gains as a result of Bitfinex's rollback a few months back, I tend to agree. However, it is what it is. This is their policy, they've done it, and they'll do it again. What I've learned is: bid accordingly. Don't aim too low on Bitfinex, or they'll take your BTC.

THen I guess I should move away from them.. I didn't know they have this unfair policy

What about btce? Do they rollback trades too?

no. btce experienced a flash crash to $100~ at the very same time. they did not roll back trades, and many traders reported having their bids filled in the $100s.

Yep, I remember that. Unfortunately didn't have my fiat on BTCE at the time -- stupid me, taking like a $15-20 arb profit instead of keeping money there. Now, I always keep lowball bids on BTCE when I am in fiat.

i was watching as well when the flash crash happened, but the first thought i had was "they found a bug in bitcoin protocol" and was simply too scared to do anything. Price then climbed back halfway, did a little fight there and went back to normal in a matter of minutes..

fonzie

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Moderator

Quote from: urwhatuknow on July 13, 2014, 09:46:58 AM

We might increase leverage in the future if we see our swap market is cooling off a little.
For the time being we believe it's a good idea, for the sake of traders, liquidity providers and the bitcoin market to slow down a little the growth of our swap total market.

I hope this helps.

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

"Earlier today, Mt. Gox halted trading, saying the market needed to "cool down""

I knew i heard that phrase somewhere else before... Cheesy

CEG5952

hero member

Activity: 658

Merit: 500

Buy and sell bitcoins,

Quote from: FattyMcButterpants on July 15, 2014, 01:21:07 AM

Quote from: shinjikenny123 on July 15, 2014, 01:06:22 AM

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 12:59:11 AM

Quote from: shinjikenny123 on July 15, 2014, 12:44:45 AM

On a normal market, when position gets liquidated, stocks gets sold. End of story.
If bitfinex would rollback/freeze trades, isn't that market manipulation? They're interfering with "the free and fair operation of the market"
Since bitfinex promised to compensate lenders in case of losses because of a crash, they should pay them out of their own pocket. Otherwise, they should let the lenders take the risk.
Those waiting at the buy side never did anything wrong, they placed their buy orders, btc get sold, buyers get their btc.
You shouldn't undo what has been sold. Once it's sold, it's sold! If it has to crash to $1, then let it crash.

As someone who has lost significant gains as a result of Bitfinex's rollback a few months back, I tend to agree. However, it is what it is. This is their policy, they've done it, and they'll do it again. What I've learned is: bid accordingly. Don't aim too low on Bitfinex, or they'll take your BTC.

THen I guess I should move away from them.. I didn't know they have this unfair policy

What about btce? Do they rollback trades too?

no. btce experienced a flash crash to $100~ at the very same time. they did not roll back trades, and many traders reported having their bids filled in the $100s.

Yep, I remember that. Unfortunately didn't have my fiat on BTCE at the time -- stupid me, taking like a $15-20 arb profit instead of keeping money there. Now, I always keep lowball bids on BTCE when I am in fiat.

FattyMcButterpants

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 250

Quote from: shinjikenny123 on July 15, 2014, 01:06:22 AM

Quote from: CEG5952 on July 15, 2014, 12:59:11 AM

Quote from: shinjikenny123 on July 15, 2014, 12:44:45 AM

On a normal market, when position gets liquidated, stocks gets sold. End of story.
If bitfinex would rollback/freeze trades, isn't that market manipulation? They're interfering with "the free and fair operation of the market"
Since bitfinex promised to compensate lenders in case of losses because of a crash, they should pay them out of their own pocket. Otherwise, they should let the lenders take the risk.
Those waiting at the buy side never did anything wrong, they placed their buy orders, btc get sold, buyers get their btc.
You shouldn't undo what has been sold. Once it's sold, it's sold! If it has to crash to $1, then let it crash.

As someone who has lost significant gains as a result of Bitfinex's rollback a few months back, I tend to agree. However, it is what it is. This is their policy, they've done it, and they'll do it again. What I've learned is: bid accordingly. Don't aim too low on Bitfinex, or they'll take your BTC.

THen I guess I should move away from them.. I didn't know they have this unfair policy

What about btce? Do they rollback trades too?

no. btce experienced a flash crash to $100~ at the very same time. they did not roll back trades, and many traders reported having their bids filled in the $100s.

ask

legendary

Activity: 1386

Merit: 1004

Last two days I spent closing my open positions. Time will show if I was right or wrong.

Topic: This Bitfinex Credit Bubble cannot end well - page 28. (Read 62099 times)