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Topic: This Bitfinex Credit Bubble cannot end well - page 23. (Read 62102 times)

full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
sooo, i was a bit relieved to see USD swaps going down on the fall (sometimes we have seen the opposite), but now i see that bulls are pushing swaps up to $30 million again.... Shocked

29,854,318.41 USD at the moment.

The small flash drop the other day doesn't seem to have much effect on the swaps, just a small valley. On the other hand, we seem to be going down for 10 days now - which doesn't look like a bubble collapsing, but rather a small and gradual retreat. But I guess it is still too early to tell if this continues.

I think they are getting squeezed on purpose. In the face of getting squeezed, like most gamblers, they are starting to double down. It is at this point that the house moves in to take all of their chips. This could get ugly (and at best, it'll just stay sideways and a few guys will be ruined).

So there's some kind of Martingale strategy when it comes to (leveraged) trading? Ha! Awesome... Umm but yeah, they could end up getting burned. But how would this affect us (apart from Finex maybe collapsing and the trades being reversed)?

Assuming most if not all people on here are non-whales, it just means that cheap coins could be coming to town (not 100% prediction, maybe not even 50-50... but good enough odds to have the idea in your back pocket). Even if trades get reversed, a flash crash (or even a slow drain) will depress prices beyond a normal level. Also, other exchanges might not roll back their trades (although they might also not fall as much). So, that's mostly how I am playing my hand... half in bitcoin, half in fiat with the fiat ready to be pushed into bitcoin if the price dips.

Am I just taking trading advice from a Jr. Member called 'Newbie1022'? Cheesy But yeah, it's an interesting view. You may be right with that.

Meh, I am either right or I am wrong without regard to experience or status. The idea is simply a hedge with some upside. It amounts to a bet on volatility. If the price goes up, I win. If the price goes down substantially, I win. If the price stays flat and goes down slightly then I lose slightly. I'm not really a gambler so I look for situations where the odds are stacked in my favor. The way the order book reads, it seems like traders are treating a major event as a 100 or 1000 to 1 type of event whereas I think it is about a 5 or 10 to 1 event sometime within the next three weeks. I also feel much more comfortable with this play than a traditional short because, frankly, I am a Newbie... I lack the ability to do proper technical analysis to make those bets intelligently and I know it. =D
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night
sooo, i was a bit relieved to see USD swaps going down on the fall (sometimes we have seen the opposite), but now i see that bulls are pushing swaps up to $30 million again.... Shocked

29,854,318.41 USD at the moment.

The small flash drop the other day doesn't seem to have much effect on the swaps, just a small valley. On the other hand, we seem to be going down for 10 days now - which doesn't look like a bubble collapsing, but rather a small and gradual retreat. But I guess it is still too early to tell if this continues.

I think they are getting squeezed on purpose. In the face of getting squeezed, like most gamblers, they are starting to double down. It is at this point that the house moves in to take all of their chips. This could get ugly (and at best, it'll just stay sideways and a few guys will be ruined).

So there's some kind of Martingale strategy when it comes to (leveraged) trading? Ha! Awesome... Umm but yeah, they could end up getting burned. But how would this affect us (apart from Finex maybe collapsing and the trades being reversed)?

Assuming most if not all people on here are non-whales, it just means that cheap coins could be coming to town (not 100% prediction, maybe not even 50-50... but good enough odds to have the idea in your back pocket). Even if trades get reversed, a flash crash (or even a slow drain) will depress prices beyond a normal level. Also, other exchanges might not roll back their trades (although they might also not fall as much). So, that's mostly how I am playing my hand... half in bitcoin, half in fiat with the fiat ready to be pushed into bitcoin if the price dips.

Am I just taking trading advice from a Jr. Member called 'Newbie1022'? Cheesy But yeah, it's an interesting view. You may be right with that.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
sooo, i was a bit relieved to see USD swaps going down on the fall (sometimes we have seen the opposite), but now i see that bulls are pushing swaps up to $30 million again.... Shocked

29,854,318.41 USD at the moment.

The small flash drop the other day doesn't seem to have much effect on the swaps, just a small valley. On the other hand, we seem to be going down for 10 days now - which doesn't look like a bubble collapsing, but rather a small and gradual retreat. But I guess it is still too early to tell if this continues.

I think they are getting squeezed on purpose. In the face of getting squeezed, like most gamblers, they are starting to double down. It is at this point that the house moves in to take all of their chips. This could get ugly (and at best, it'll just stay sideways and a few guys will be ruined).

So there's some kind of Martingale strategy when it comes to (leveraged) trading? Ha! Awesome... Umm but yeah, they could end up getting burned. But how would this affect us (apart from Finex maybe collapsing and the trades being reversed)?

Assuming most if not all people on here are non-whales, it just means that cheap coins could be coming to town (not 100% prediction, maybe not even 50-50... but good enough odds to have the idea in your back pocket). Even if trades get reversed, a flash crash (or even a slow drain) will depress prices beyond a normal level. Also, other exchanges might not roll back their trades (although they might also not fall as much). So, that's mostly how I am playing my hand... half in bitcoin, half in fiat with the fiat ready to be pushed into bitcoin if the price dips.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night
sooo, i was a bit relieved to see USD swaps going down on the fall (sometimes we have seen the opposite), but now i see that bulls are pushing swaps up to $30 million again.... Shocked

29,854,318.41 USD at the moment.

The small flash drop the other day doesn't seem to have much effect on the swaps, just a small valley. On the other hand, we seem to be going down for 10 days now - which doesn't look like a bubble collapsing, but rather a small and gradual retreat. But I guess it is still too early to tell if this continues.

I think they are getting squeezed on purpose. In the face of getting squeezed, like most gamblers, they are starting to double down. It is at this point that the house moves in to take all of their chips. This could get ugly (and at best, it'll just stay sideways and a few guys will be ruined).

So there's some kind of Martingale strategy when it comes to (leveraged) trading? Ha! Awesome... Umm but yeah, they could end up getting burned. But how would this affect us (apart from Finex maybe collapsing and the trades being reversed)?
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
sooo, i was a bit relieved to see USD swaps going down on the fall (sometimes we have seen the opposite), but now i see that bulls are pushing swaps up to $30 million again.... Shocked

29,854,318.41 USD at the moment.

The small flash drop the other day doesn't seem to have much effect on the swaps, just a small valley. On the other hand, we seem to be going down for 10 days now - which doesn't look like a bubble collapsing, but rather a small and gradual retreat. But I guess it is still too early to tell if this continues.

I think they are getting squeezed on purpose. In the face of getting squeezed, like most gamblers, they are starting to double down. It is at this point that the house moves in to take all of their chips. This could get ugly (and at best, it'll just stay sideways and a few guys will be ruined).
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
A pumpkin mines 27 hours a night
sooo, i was a bit relieved to see USD swaps going down on the fall (sometimes we have seen the opposite), but now i see that bulls are pushing swaps up to $30 million again.... Shocked

29,854,318.41 USD at the moment.

The small flash drop the other day doesn't seem to have much effect on the swaps, just a small valley. On the other hand, we seem to be going down for 10 days now - which doesn't look like a bubble collapsing, but rather a small and gradual retreat. But I guess it is still too early to tell if this continues.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
sooo, i was a bit relieved to see USD swaps going down on the fall (sometimes we have seen the opposite), but now i see that bulls are pushing swaps up to $30 million again.... Shocked

29,854,318.41 USD at the moment.
sr. member
Activity: 312
Merit: 250
IIRC, the margin requirement is 13% (or something like that). So it will liquidate you when the ticker indicates you've only got 13% over what you need to cover. This is to cover lack of liquidity, I assume.
The max leverage is 2.5x so it is much more then 13%

Huh? What did you think was being said? 2.5x means that you are margin called at 13%. Meaning that if there is sufficient liquidity at your margin call price, you will be left with 13% of your original account.
full member
Activity: 195
Merit: 100
This is like the 8th day in a row this particular 30 minute candle has been a higher volume down at Bitfinex. Must be liquidations. Is it at 9:30 AM HK time?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
Has this last drop squeezed any longs for now? How low do you think it should go that we could say longs are properly squeezed?

must be impossible to say, its not like everyone opened a  long at 400  all at once.

old longs might be covering, but at the same time new longs are opening.
newbie
Activity: 52
Merit: 0
IIRC, the margin requirement is 13% (or something like that). So it will liquidate you when the ticker indicates you've only got 13% over what you need to cover. This is to cover lack of liquidity, I assume.
The max leverage is 2.5x so it is much more then 13%
full member
Activity: 155
Merit: 100
Has this last drop squeezed any longs for now? How low do you think it should go that we could say longs are properly squeezed?
full member
Activity: 160
Merit: 101
It seems that Bifinex's measures to limit the swaps volume might not be effective in time. The amount only went down for 1 or 2 million. This is looking bad to the long traders and many prefer to sink with the ship than to accept losses.

A crash at Bitfinex is becoming a serious possibility. Just in case, better prepare your bid offers. But don't be greedy or your trades will be reversed.

What is this greedy you speak of (what is kind of greedy v. comically greedy no chance in hell)? Should people play BTC-e since it seems to go lockstep despite not having the leverage problem because of a thin order book and they have a reputation of not reversing trades? General thoughts?
BTC-E is used by Plus500, so it is probably also affected by leveraged trading gambling.
sr. member
Activity: 312
Merit: 250
IIRC, the margin requirement is 13% (or something like that). So it will liquidate you when the ticker indicates you've only got 13% over what you need to cover. This is to cover lack of liquidity, I assume.
full member
Activity: 653
Merit: 217
You are welcome.

To justify the 450 usds per bitcoin:

Most long traders are still using a 2.5:1 leverage, since the new limits don't affect current positions.

Therefore, someone with 100 btcs could borrow USDs that allowed him to buy about more 250 btcs. So, if he bought them at about 630, he borrowed 157,500 USDs (250x630).

He is going to be liquidated when he is about to lose all his own 100 btcs and the value of the 350 btcs he has (the original 100+250 borrowed) only can pay the 157,500 USDs borrowed.

So, 157,500 / 350= 450. 450 will be the last price at which his 350 btcs can still pay the borrowed USDs. I never did the math based on the liquidation price they show in order to figure out at what exact value the Bitfinex liquidation happens. Probably, it will liquidate the position before the 450.

Anyone feel free to correct me.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
At about 450 (math based on a buy price of about 630-640, taking in account the drop in value of the borrowed btcs and also of the btcs offered as collateral), most long traders will be liquidated. If Bitfinex doesn't stop trading before 450, the price will end below 1usd and they will have to reverse trades.

But the price probably will go to 450 faster on Bitfinex than on the chinese exchanges, since many long traders won't be willing to risk the liquidation and soon or later will start dumping. And some will be liquidated before 450.

Yes, betting in BTC-e is a good choice also.

Thanks for the thoughts!!
full member
Activity: 653
Merit: 217
At about 450 (math based on a buy price of about 630-640, taking in account the drop in value of the borrowed btcs and also of the btcs offered as collateral), most long traders will be liquidated. If Bitfinex doesn't stop trading before 450, the price will end below 1usd and they will have to reverse trades.

But the price probably will go to 450 faster on Bitfinex than on the chinese exchanges, since many long traders won't be willing to risk the liquidation and soon or later will start dumping. And some will be liquidated before 450.

Yes, betting in BTC-e is a good choice also.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
It seems that Bifinex's measures to limit the swaps volume might not be effective in time. The amount only went down for 1 or 2 million. This is looking bad to the long traders and many prefer to sink with the ship than to accept losses.

A crash at Bitfinex is becoming a serious possibility. Just in case, better prepare your bid offers. But don't be greedy or your trades will be reversed.

What is this greedy you speak of (what is kind of greedy v. comically greedy no chance in hell)? Should people play BTC-e since it seems to go lockstep despite not having the leverage problem because of a thin order book and they have a reputation of not reversing trades? General thoughts?
full member
Activity: 653
Merit: 217
It seems that Bifinex's measures to limit the swaps volume might not be effective in time. The amount only went down for 1 or 2 million. This is looking bad to the long traders and many prefer to sink with the ship than to accept losses.

A crash at Bitfinex is becoming a serious possibility. Just in case, better prepare your bid offers. But don't be greedy or your trades will be reversed.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
It's too bad that they'll rollback trades to a certain point and freeze trading if a crash does occur... I've got student loans that need paying. =D

Would you rather want the whole market to crash or all positions being completely screwed up at Finex, at least? I guess it's their only option.

I don't want anything bad to happen to the other traders or Bitcoin, broadly. At the same time, I've got student loans to pay off (this is a personal debate with the good angel on one shoulder and the bad angel on the other).
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