Topic: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism - page 3. (Read 33901 times)

Ever heard of the creative commons? Number of users isnt important, utility is.

Tell me, how do you cc license a plot of land? Or did you forget that was what we're talking about?

You should tip me for all this edjakayshun imma layin on you. A full btc to keep playing.

If I don't, will you stop spreading your Proudhonite idiocy? 'Cuz that sounds like win/win, to me.

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 02:25:29 PM

I traded a pretty rock for this phone, which was given to me secondhand.

Capitalism at work, baby.

Google "commons" and tell me if you see land or not.
Tip me or read moar. Also the correct term is Proudhonian idiocy. Personally I prefer Kropotkinite idiocy, but Proudhon, who influenced every single theorist after him wrote a really neat book pertaining to property and early capitalism.
As to the other post, scientific developments that benefeit the public happen in spite of capitalist profit obsession, even though public school teaches otherwise. Hitting ignore unless I get paid for this particular brand of foolishness.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 18, 2013, 01:52:08 PM

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 01:49:38 PM

Capitalism requires unfounded remote ownership a la Property is Theft.

Define "unfounded."

I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo. A field left unplowed. A castle waiting for a soon-to-return-noble in the crusades. A locked dumpster. These are examples of wasted property needlessly accumulated and consolidated for the supposed purpose of private wealth to the detriment of public good. Proudhon is pretty cool.
We could also go into the idea of stocks in things that involved anything from fraud to genogide to obtain, like the entire US. We can also think of unfounded as unfair or unjust.
Now the real crazy part comes in during a consideration of wage slavery, human beings and other animals as property, and labor as a commodity.

all this will be irrelevant if we remove the right to own stuff, the very foundation of any capitalistic society.

See, these folks be confusing private property with private posessions.

So, can I take your land, your lawnmower, or your wife, or that nice statue on your lawn? Sheesh!

Priceless.
I liek how you slipped "wife," in there.

Call it a tribute to Islam.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Ever heard of the creative commons? Number of users isnt important, utility is.

Tell me, how do you cc license a plot of land? Or did you forget that was what we're talking about?

You should tip me for all this edjakayshun imma layin on you. A full btc to keep playing.

If I don't, will you stop spreading your Proudhonite idiocy? 'Cuz that sounds like win/win, to me.

Quote from: myrkul on May 18, 2013, 02:23:02 PM

I traded a pretty rock for this phone, which was given to me secondhand.

Capitalism at work, baby.

ktttn

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Capitalism is the crisis.

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 02:11:52 PM

It's unfounded because it exists without someone owning it, it can be utilized without someone owning it, and a capitalist owning it always results in waste.

The irony that you're posting this on a smartphone is not lost on me.

First:
Yes, it exists without something owning it. Thus "unowned property." Not a good justification for calling property unfounded.
While something can be utilized without someone owning it, that likewise a poor justification for calling property unfounded, because it cannot be utilized by two people at the same time.
And finally, Capitalism does not "always result in waste." Waste is loss. Capitalists don't like loss. They like profit. Capitalists avoid waste like the plague.

Roasting alive in a troll bread.
Unowned property is an oxymoron.
Ever heard of the creative commons? Number of users isnt important, utility is.
Waste of profit, yup agreed. Waste of every single other factor? People's lives?
I traded a pretty rock for this phone, which was given to me secondhand.
You should tip me for all this edjakayshun imma layin on you. A full btc to keep playing.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 02:22:07 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 18, 2013, 01:54:15 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 18, 2013, 01:52:08 PM

Capitalism requires unfounded remote ownership a la Property is Theft.

Define "unfounded."

I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo. A field left unplowed. A castle waiting for a soon-to-return-noble in the crusades. A locked dumpster. These are examples of wasted property needlessly accumulated and consolidated for the supposed purpose of private wealth to the detriment of public good. Proudhon is pretty cool.

That does not define "unfounded."
Plus, some are very poor examples of waste.
The castle is like saying "an empty home waiting for it's owner to come home from work," and fields sometimes need to be left unplowed to recover nutrients.

Not gonna pander to dictionary copypasta.
Examples of waste are examples of waste.
Fuck affluence. Squat the burbs. An unoccupied house, unoccupied because the resident is off being a dick to muslims should get squatted.
A field =/= nurtient depleted field. -until capitalism, that is.

Muslims are dicks to each other, and infidels, and women, and are antithetical to freedom, at least when they are given free reign. And now we all know where you're coming from. You may now join the ranks of blablabla and kokjo. Have fun, but not at others expense!

Did you just out-troll yoursef?

ktttn

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Capitalism is the crisis.

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 01:49:38 PM

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 02:11:52 PM

Capitalism requires unfounded remote ownership a la Property is Theft.

Define "unfounded."

I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo. A field left unplowed. A castle waiting for a soon-to-return-noble in the crusades. A locked dumpster. These are examples of wasted property needlessly accumulated and consolidated for the supposed purpose of private wealth to the detriment of public good. Proudhon is pretty cool.
We could also go into the idea of stocks in things that involved anything from fraud to genogide to obtain, like the entire US. We can also think of unfounded as unfair or unjust.
Now the real crazy part comes in during a consideration of wage slavery, human beings and other animals as property, and labor as a commodity.

all this will be irrelevant if we remove the right to own stuff, the very foundation of any capitalistic society.

See, these folks be confusing private property with private posessions.

So, can I take your land, your lawnmower, or your wife, or that nice statue on your lawn? Sheesh!

Priceless.
I liek how you slipped "wife," in there.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

It's unfounded because it exists without someone owning it, it can be utilized without someone owning it, and a capitalist owning it always results in waste.

The irony that you're posting this on a smartphone is not lost on me.

First:
Yes, it exists without something owning it. Thus "unowned property." Not a good justification for calling property unfounded.
While something can be utilized without someone owning it, that likewise a poor justification for calling property unfounded, because it cannot be utilized by two people at the same time.
And finally, Capitalism does not "always result in waste." Waste is loss. Capitalists don't like loss. They like profit. Capitalists avoid waste like the plague.

ktttn

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Capitalism is the crisis.

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 18, 2013, 01:54:15 PM

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 02:11:52 PM

Capitalism requires unfounded remote ownership a la Property is Theft.

Define "unfounded."

I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo. A field left unplowed. A castle waiting for a soon-to-return-noble in the crusades. A locked dumpster. These are examples of wasted property needlessly accumulated and consolidated for the supposed purpose of private wealth to the detriment of public good. Proudhon is pretty cool.

That does not define "unfounded."
Plus, some are very poor examples of waste.
The castle is like saying "an empty home waiting for it's owner to come home from work," and fields sometimes need to be left unplowed to recover nutrients.

Not gonna pander to dictionary copypasta.
Examples of waste are examples of waste.
Fuck affluence. Squat the burbs. An unoccupied house, unoccupied because the resident is off being a dick to muslims should get squatted.
A field =/= nurtient depleted field. -until capitalism, that is.

Muslims are dicks to each other, and infidels, and women, and are antithetical to freedom, at least when they are given free reign. And now we all know where you're coming from. You may now join the ranks of blablabla and kokjo. Have fun, but not at others expense!

Did you just out-troll yoursef?

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: myrkul on May 18, 2013, 01:49:08 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 18, 2013, 01:50:54 PM

Capitalism requires unfounded remote ownership a la Property is Theft.

Define "unfounded."

I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo. A field left unplowed. A castle waiting for a soon-to-return-noble in the crusades. A locked dumpster. These are examples of wasted property needlessly accumulated and consolidated for the supposed purpose of private wealth to the detriment of public good. Proudhon is pretty cool.

That does not define "unfounded."
Plus, some are very poor examples of waste.
The castle is like saying "an empty home waiting for it's owner to come home from work," and fields sometimes need to be left unplowed to recover nutrients.

Not gonna pander to dictionary copypasta.

I don't want you to. I want you to explain why it is unfounded. What makes property an unfounded right?
'Cuz Proudhon said so?
'Cuz you're poor, and fuck the rich?

It's unfounded because it exists without someone owning it, it can be utilized without someone owning it, and a capitalist owning it always results in waste.
Yes. I have been paraphrasing his book this whole time.
Also yes.
Also fuck formatting on a tiny touchscreen.

Capitalism and free markets: Industrial revolution, vaccines, men on the moon, lower infant mortality rates, longer lifespans, fridges, phones and computers:
Not capitalism and free markets: 100 million murdered or starved in the 20th century.

I see you've made your choice.

ktttn

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Capitalism is the crisis.

Quote from: myrkul on May 18, 2013, 01:40:52 PM

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 01:39:08 PM

unowned land they own

Maybe you don't see the logical contradiction here, but I do.

But if it's an illiterate sheep-herder who has been using the land for pasture, like is father before him, etc?
In that case, I would consider the land as owned. But I can still make a deal with him. Hmmm...arbitration companies representing indigenous peoples, ensuring that they don't get fleeced, for a return on the profits of those who exploit those assets? Yes, AnCap can promote justice for them too, like a "Charitable Arbitration Company".

Thats how kings and judges were invented. I love judge-kings...
Only the groovy ones though. Not the OTHER KIND.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: kokjo on May 18, 2013, 02:08:30 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 18, 2013, 01:54:15 PM

Have fun, but not at others expense!

who are you to decided that?

Ah, so now posting is law? it's a piece of advice, brainiac.
Now go back to mugging old ladies, you sick freak!

ktttn

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Capitalism is the crisis.

Quote from: myrkul on May 18, 2013, 01:49:08 PM

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 02:03:38 PM

Capitalism requires unfounded remote ownership a la Property is Theft.

Define "unfounded."

I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo. A field left unplowed. A castle waiting for a soon-to-return-noble in the crusades. A locked dumpster. These are examples of wasted property needlessly accumulated and consolidated for the supposed purpose of private wealth to the detriment of public good. Proudhon is pretty cool.

That does not define "unfounded."
Plus, some are very poor examples of waste.
The castle is like saying "an empty home waiting for it's owner to come home from work," and fields sometimes need to be left unplowed to recover nutrients.

Not gonna pander to dictionary copypasta.

I don't want you to. I want you to explain why it is unfounded. What makes property an unfounded right?
'Cuz Proudhon said so?
'Cuz you're poor, and fuck the rich?

It's unfounded because it exists without someone owning it, it can be utilized without someone owning it, and a capitalist owning it always results in waste.
Yes. I have been paraphrasing his book this whole time.
Also yes.
Also fuck formatting on a tiny touchscreen.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 18, 2013, 01:31:19 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 18, 2013, 01:54:15 PM

That's not a very anarchist thing to say.
Hypothetical situation A:
I grow grain and sell it to a foreign customer. A drought causes starvation in my local area, but my techniques of farming render me immune, and the foreign buyer has contractual rights to the next 6 months of my output. the locals are starving, and try to take my grain, and I kill many in self-defense as they storm my grain silos. Am I a criminal?
Hypothetical situation B:
I have full silos of grain, and I choose to let it rot, and the locals are starving, and I kill many when they storm my silos. Does that make me a criminal?

Criminal? Anarchist, remember? No state, no crime, no institutionalized demonization.
I will try to assess the ethical implications of your situations, however.
A. The foreign buyer is not sympathetic to the people who now depend on your technology. You would be foolish to let yourself be obligated to the foreign buyer in order to keep your techniques out of the public domain.
B. Nope.

A. So my contract is rendered invalid? Bad for business, bad for the buyer and the seller.
B. "I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo." So what term to you use?
"Criminal? Anarchist, remember? No state, no crime, no institutionalized demonization."
I see, theft is not a crime, in your books.

I begin to see yet greater difficulties in implementing AnCap, but I still think it's the best choice.
Freedom carries a steep price, but still a bargain compared to every alternative.

kokjo

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1000

You are WRONG!

Have fun, but not at others expense!

who are you to decided that?

ktttn

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Capitalism is the crisis.

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 18, 2013, 01:31:19 PM

That's not a very anarchist thing to say.
Hypothetical situation A:
I grow grain and sell it to a foreign customer. A drought causes starvation in my local area, but my techniques of farming render me immune, and the foreign buyer has contractual rights to the next 6 months of my output. the locals are starving, and try to take my grain, and I kill many in self-defense as they storm my grain silos. Am I a criminal?
Hypothetical situation B:
I have full silos of grain, and I choose to let it rot, and the locals are starving, and I kill many when they storm my silos. Does that make me a criminal?

Criminal? Anarchist, remember? No state, no crime, no institutionalized demonization.
I will try to assess the ethical implications of your situations, however.
A. The foreign buyer is not sympathetic to the people who now depend on your technology. You would be foolish to let yourself be obligated to the foreign buyer in order to keep your techniques out of the public domain.
B. Nope.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 01:49:38 PM

Capitalism requires unfounded remote ownership a la Property is Theft.

Define "unfounded."

I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo. A field left unplowed. A castle waiting for a soon-to-return-noble in the crusades. A locked dumpster. These are examples of wasted property needlessly accumulated and consolidated for the supposed purpose of private wealth to the detriment of public good. Proudhon is pretty cool.

That does not define "unfounded."
Plus, some are very poor examples of waste.
The castle is like saying "an empty home waiting for it's owner to come home from work," and fields sometimes need to be left unplowed to recover nutrients.

Not gonna pander to dictionary copypasta.
Examples of waste are examples of waste.
Fuck affluence. Squat the burbs. An unoccupied house, unoccupied because the resident is off being a dick to muslims should get squatted.
A field =/= nurtient depleted field. -until capitalism, that is.

Muslims are dicks to each other, and infidels, and women, and are antithetical to freedom, at least when they are given free reign. And now we all know where you're coming from. You may now join the ranks of blablabla and kokjo. Have fun, but not at others expense!

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: myrkul on May 18, 2013, 01:40:52 PM

Capitalism requires unfounded remote ownership a la Property is Theft.

Define "unfounded."

I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo. A field left unplowed. A castle waiting for a soon-to-return-noble in the crusades. A locked dumpster. These are examples of wasted property needlessly accumulated and consolidated for the supposed purpose of private wealth to the detriment of public good. Proudhon is pretty cool.
We could also go into the idea of stocks in things that involved anything from fraud to genogide to obtain, like the entire US. We can also think of unfounded as unfair or unjust.
Now the real crazy part comes in during a consideration of wage slavery, human beings and other animals as property, and labor as a commodity.

all this will be irrelevant if we remove the right to own stuff, the very foundation of any capitalistic society.

See, these folks be confusing private property with private posessions.

So, can I take your land, your lawnmower, or your wife, or that nice statue on your lawn? Sheesh!

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: ktttn on May 18, 2013, 01:39:08 PM

unowned land they own

Maybe you don't see the logical contradiction here, but I do.

But if it's an illiterate sheep-herder who has been using the land for pasture, like is father before him, etc?
In that case, I would consider the land as owned. But I can still make a deal with him. Hmmm...arbitration companies representing indigenous peoples, ensuring that they don't get fleeced, for a return on the profits of those who exploit those assets? Yes, AnCap can promote justice for them too, like a "Charitable Arbitration Company".

ktttn

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

Capitalism is the crisis.

Capitalism requires unfounded remote ownership a la Property is Theft.

Define "unfounded."

I'll give some examples. Grain rotting in a silo. A field left unplowed. A castle waiting for a soon-to-return-noble in the crusades. A locked dumpster. These are examples of wasted property needlessly accumulated and consolidated for the supposed purpose of private wealth to the detriment of public good. Proudhon is pretty cool.
We could also go into the idea of stocks in things that involved anything from fraud to genogide to obtain, like the entire US. We can also think of unfounded as unfair or unjust.
Now the real crazy part comes in during a consideration of wage slavery, human beings and other animals as property, and labor as a commodity.

all this will be irrelevant if we remove the right to own stuff, the very foundation of any capitalistic society.

See, these folks be confusing private property with private posessions.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM