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Topic: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism - page 39. (Read 33901 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Oh, I think I see what this is. You got pwned on the FDR forums, didn't you?
No, never been there. I have no reason to go there.

You don't say....

i should join their forum, and see how long before a ban. if i did said i supported communism...
it was meant as a joke on the libertards. I don't want to fight a meaning less war, and im not a communist...

actually when im with some of my communistic friends i become a libertard, just for the fun of it.
And you call me crazy. That's rich.
but you are! you believe in a hallucination called "reality".
Yeah, OK, Dank.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
What threat from higher powers keeps the US government from exploiting it's citizens in the way you describe?
If you want the right answers, you have to ask the right questions!

If we go back to that analogy I used earlier where e.g.: each country = 1 person, the 'world' with 200-and-something inhabitants would basically be an An-Cap society.
So:
What stops the US -- as a person with some psychological issues -- from "cutting itself"? Charity.
What stops the US -- as a big fat bully -- from attacking other people? That super-effective arbitration and stuff (read: probably the UN and some think-tanks).
And the same mechanisms would prevent a non-state entity from abusing it's customers, with the additional disincentive of losing those customers to another entity.

And, of course, as I stated earlier, the "property" of the various states extant is mostly stolen, whereas the territory of the non-state entities would be voluntarily assigned.
Do you own your own body? Surely you didn't "steal" it from your individual cells?
Surely you're not comparing the citizens of a country to the cells of a body?

When/if they demand freedom, I'll grant it.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
Oh, I think I see what this is. You got pwned on the FDR forums, didn't you?
No, never been there. I have no reason to go there.

You don't say....

i should join their forum, and see how long before a ban. if i did said i supported communism...
it was meant as a joke on the libertards. I don't want to fight a meaning less war, and im not a communist...

actually when im with some of my communistic friends i become a libertard, just for the fun of it.
And you call me crazy. That's rich.
but you are! you believe in a hallucination called "reality".
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Oh, I think I see what this is. You got pwned on the FDR forums, didn't you?
No, never been there. I have no reason to go there.

You don't say....

i should join their forum, and see how long before a ban. if i did said i supported communism...
it was meant as a joke on the libertards. I don't want to fight a meaning less war, and im not a communist...

actually when im with some of my communistic friends i become a libertard, just for the fun of it.
And you call me crazy. That's rich.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
Oh, I think I see what this is. You got pwned on the FDR forums, didn't you?
No, never been there. I have no reason to go there.

You don't say....

i should join their forum, and see how long before a ban. if i did said i supported communism...
it was meant as a joke on the libertards. I don't want to fight a meaning less war, and im not a communist...

actually when im with some of my communistic friends i become a libertard, just for the fun of it.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
What threat from higher powers keeps the US government from exploiting it's citizens in the way you describe?
If you want the right answers, you have to ask the right questions!

If we go back to that analogy I used earlier where e.g.: each country = 1 person, the 'world' with 200-and-something inhabitants would basically be an An-Cap society.
So:
What stops the US -- as a person with some psychological issues -- from "cutting itself"? Charity.
What stops the US -- as a big fat bully -- from attacking other people? That super-effective arbitration and stuff (read: probably the UN and some think-tanks).
And the same mechanisms would prevent a non-state entity from abusing it's customers, with the additional disincentive of losing those customers to another entity.

And, of course, as I stated earlier, the "property" of the various states extant is mostly stolen, whereas the territory of the non-state entities would be voluntarily assigned.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Oh, I think I see what this is. You got pwned on the FDR forums, didn't you?
No, never been there. I have no reason to go there.

You don't say....

i should join their forum, and see how long before a ban. if i did said i supported communism...
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
have you made aggressions against the state, which you are allowed to by NAP, that are hard to trace back to you?

2 things:
1: If they are retributive strikes against an oppressive government, they are not, by definition, aggression.
2: If I had, do you honestly think I would be stupid enough to admit it on a public forum?

However, no, I've made no violent actions against the government. They would be counterproductive, and wasteful. No violent revolution has ever gained the revolutionaries lasting liberty.
so, you sit in front of your computer, spreading libertarian propaganda on the internet, waiting for the ancap revolution to come.

good luck, bro! Smiley
So, in your mind the only actions I can take against the government are violent ones? Why would I want to play their game?
no, i did not say that. what i meant was that you are talking the a very small subset of the population that mostly agrees with you(well i don't, but im one of the few.).

go join a communist or statist forum and try to do a difference.
Oh, I think I see what this is. You got pwned on the FDR forums, didn't you?
No, never been there. I have no reason to go there.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
have you made aggressions against the state, which you are allowed to by NAP, that are hard to trace back to you?

2 things:
1: If they are retributive strikes against an oppressive government, they are not, by definition, aggression.
2: If I had, do you honestly think I would be stupid enough to admit it on a public forum?

However, no, I've made no violent actions against the government. They would be counterproductive, and wasteful. No violent revolution has ever gained the revolutionaries lasting liberty.
so, you sit in front of your computer, spreading libertarian propaganda on the internet, waiting for the ancap revolution to come.

good luck, bro! Smiley
So, in your mind the only actions I can take against the government are violent ones? Why would I want to play their game?
no, i did not say that. what i meant was that you are talking the a very small subset of the population that mostly agrees with you(well i don't, but im one of the few.).

go join a communist or statist forum and try to do a difference.
Oh, I think I see what this is. You got pwned on the FDR forums, didn't you?
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
circle jerking on this forum can not be considered education of the masses...

It's certainly educating me Grin  Now I can educate others.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
so, you sit in front of your computer, spreading libertarian propaganda on the internet, waiting for the ancap revolution to come.

good luck, bro! Smiley

That's the idea.  Educate the masses, so a revolution can happen.  One or two guys planting bombs to "stick it to the man" would get labeled terrorists, and everybody would hate them.  Plus, they wouldn't teach anyone anything.

You ever hear the phrase, "The pen is mightier than the sword"?
circle jerking on this forum can not be considered education of the masses...
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
have you made aggressions against the state, which you are allowed to by NAP, that are hard to trace back to you?

2 things:
1: If they are retributive strikes against an oppressive government, they are not, by definition, aggression.
2: If I had, do you honestly think I would be stupid enough to admit it on a public forum?

However, no, I've made no violent actions against the government. They would be counterproductive, and wasteful. No violent revolution has ever gained the revolutionaries lasting liberty.
so, you sit in front of your computer, spreading libertarian propaganda on the internet, waiting for the ancap revolution to come.

good luck, bro! Smiley
So, in your mind the only actions I can take against the government are violent ones? Why would I want to play their game?
no, i did not say that. what i meant was that you are talking the a very small subset of the population that mostly agrees with you(well i don't, but im one of the few.).

go join a communist or statist forum and try to do a difference.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
so, you sit in front of your computer, spreading libertarian propaganda on the internet, waiting for the ancap revolution to come.

good luck, bro! Smiley

That's the idea.  Educate the masses, so a revolution can happen.  One or two guys planting bombs to "stick it to the man" would get labeled terrorists, and everybody would hate them.  Plus, they wouldn't teach anyone anything.

You ever hear the phrase, "The pen is mightier than the sword"?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
have you made aggressions against the state, which you are allowed to by NAP, that are hard to trace back to you?

2 things:
1: If they are retributive strikes against an oppressive government, they are not, by definition, aggression.
2: If I had, do you honestly think I would be stupid enough to admit it on a public forum?

However, no, I've made no violent actions against the government. They would be counterproductive, and wasteful. No violent revolution has ever gained the revolutionaries lasting liberty.
so, you sit in front of your computer, spreading libertarian propaganda on the internet, waiting for the ancap revolution to come.

good luck, bro! Smiley
So, in your mind the only actions I can take against the government are violent ones? Why would I want to play their game?
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
have you made aggressions against the state, which you are allowed to by NAP, that are hard to trace back to you?

2 things:
1: If they are retributive strikes against an oppressive government, they are not, by definition, aggression.
2: If I had, do you honestly think I would be stupid enough to admit it on a public forum?

However, no, I've made no violent actions against the government. They would be counterproductive, and wasteful. No violent revolution has ever gained the revolutionaries lasting liberty.
so, you sit in front of your computer, spreading libertarian propaganda on the internet, waiting for the ancap revolution to come.

good luck, bro! Smiley
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
have you made aggressions against the state, which you are allowed to by NAP, that are hard to trace back to you?

2 things:
1: If they are retributive strikes against an oppressive government, they are not, by definition, aggression.
2: If I had, do you honestly think I would be stupid enough to admit it on a public forum?

However, no, I've made no violent actions against the government. They would be counterproductive, and wasteful. No violent revolution has ever gained the revolutionaries lasting liberty.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
myrkul, if you think that the state is evil, and have committed an act of aggression  against you or one else, why have you not asserted the NAP and gone on some crazy suicide mission against the wrongful and evil oppression done by the state?

Because I'm neither crazy nor suicidal?
the part about you not being crazy is debatable.

okay. have you made aggressions against the state, which you are allowed to by NAP, that are hard to trace back to you?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
myrkul, if you think that the state is evil, and have committed an act of aggression  against you or one else, why have you not asserted the NAP and gone on some crazy suicide mission against the wrongful and evil oppression done by the state?

Because I'm neither crazy nor suicidal?
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
You are WRONG!
myrkul, if you think that the state is evil, and have committed an act of aggression  against you or one else, why have you not asserted the NAP and gone on some crazy suicide mission against the wrongful and evil oppression done by the state?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Quote
Whence it follows:
That no government should have
the right to prevent another govern-
ment from going into competition with
it, or to require consumers of secu-
rity to come exclusively to it for this
commodity.

So when you strip away the extraneous language, all he's got is a circular statement saying:
Quote
Capitalism that's free from government intervention is the best! Therefore, governments should not interfere with each other or prevent their customers from switching.
Fixed that for you. You left out an important part, that made it not circular.

Even if we assume that yes, the Capitalist principles are all fine, and governments usually only get in the way, then we can still debate whether Molinari's "private security" idea holds water. We can try a bit of inductive reasoning by attempting specific examples where private security might not work, and then seeing if it causes problems overall.
E.g.:
  • The "marauding by night, selling security by day" example. It seems plausible that without a threat of force from higher powers, corruption is not only possible but financial incentives for it seem strong. So unless you can effectively nullify the 'corruption' argument, it seems that the whole private security system could break down. All this over-abundance of safety and harmoniousness seems bad for business! Surely Capitalists could just find a way to make it more profitable? E.g.: by making it more scarce?
What threat from higher powers keeps the US government from exploiting it's citizens in the way you describe?

Quote
If you require protection, you are a consumer of security. Our current producers call these people "citizens."
Point a)
I would have thought that peace, safety and social harmony, all those other things that make up Molinari's 'security' are the ideal candidate for a kind of intellectual commons! I can have some security, but I can't own it. I can't withhold it from others who are near me -- if I tried (e.g.: disturbing the peace, starting a fight...), I would by necessity deprive myself of it, too!
By George, I think you may be starting to grasp the concept behind the Non-aggression Principle.

By living peacefully and harmoniously within some civilisation, I'm not consuming security. It's just there!
Again you seem to state that governments provide no service. Awesome! we can start dismantling them right away.
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