Topic: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism - page 37. (Read 33901 times)

Quote from: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 12:41:36 PM

Who owns your life, then?

We have been there once already: property is not well defined. No, i don't own myself. (is that what i need to say to win?)

Well, if you don't own yourself, who does?

im not a fan of private property, so i will play along and say: no one, not even me. im un-owned.

No, don't "play along." Tell me what you actually think. I'm tired of running around in circles with you because you won't nail down an actual position. If you do not own your life, who does?

no one, im unowned. I reject the concept of private property.

Quote from: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 12:41:36 PM

For reference:
prop·er·ty
/ˈpräpərtē/
Noun

A thing or things belonging to someone; possessions collectively.

i know the definition. but people can still have lengthy discussions about who owns what.

You said "property is not well defined" Well, there is property, very well defined.

knowing the definition does not mean that its always well defined.

absurd example:
an alien race decided for many millions years ago, ot play god, and create the planet earth, and they therefor owns it, and everything on it.
now we humans live and owns the earth.now we humans live and owns the earth.
what will happen when they come back, and take back the earth and us humans that they created? who owns what?

do you eat meat?

I do indeed. I assume you have a point here.

you know some people like to extend the so-called natural rights to every living being, right?

well you just violated a cute cow's inalienable right to live, by having someone kill it so you could eat a good and tasty beef.

now if you say that your natural rights does not work that way, i will say that they are arbitrary and therefor not natural, and ask you: "do black people have natural rights?".

myrkul

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Who owns your life, then?

We have been there once already: property is not well defined. No, i don't own myself. (is that what i need to say to win?)

Well, if you don't own yourself, who does?

im not a fan of private property, so i will play along and say: no one, not even me. im un-owned.

No, don't "play along." Tell me what you actually think. I'm tired of running around in circles with you because you won't nail down an actual position. If you do not own your life, who does?

For reference:
prop·er·ty
/ˈpräpərtē/
Noun

A thing or things belonging to someone; possessions collectively.

i know the definition. but people can still have lengthy discussions about who owns what.

You said "property is not well defined" Well, there is property, very well defined.

do you eat meat?

I do indeed. I assume you have a point here.

kokjo

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Activity: 1050

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You are WRONG!

Who owns your life, then?

We have been there once already: property is not well defined. No, i don't own myself. (is that what i need to say to win?)

Well, if you don't own yourself, who does?

im not a fan of private property, so i will play along and say: no one, not even me. im un-owned.

For reference:
prop·er·ty
/ˈpräpərtē/
Noun

A thing or things belonging to someone; possessions collectively.

i know the definition. but people can still have lengthy discussions about who owns what.

do you eat meat?

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Who owns your life, then?

We have been there once already: property is not well defined. No, i don't own myself. (is that what i need to say to win?)

Well, if you don't own yourself, who does?

For reference:
prop·er·ty
/ˈpräpərtē/
Noun

A thing or things belonging to someone; possessions collectively.

kokjo

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1000

You are WRONG!

Quote from: kokjo on April 28, 2013, 12:23:15 PM

Quote from: kokjo on April 28, 2013, 12:23:15 PM

See, here we disagree again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights#Definitional_issues

The state have the right to grant rights to others.

Then you support only legal rights, and deny natural rights?

yup. i believe that all rights are artificial and are therefor not natural, which means that the whole concept of natural rights is a oxymoron.

legal rights does not lie about their artificially. they 100% man made and arbitrary, just as "natural" rights. supports of "natural" rights just don't want to admit it.

Who owns your life, then?

We have been there once already: property is not well defined. No, i don't own myself. (is that what i need to say to win?)

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

See, here we disagree again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights#Definitional_issues

The state have the right to grant rights to others.

Then you support only legal rights, and deny natural rights?

yup. i believe that all rights are artificial and are therefor not natural, which means that the whole concept of natural rights is a oxymoron.

legal rights does not lie about their artificially. they 100% man made and arbitrary, just as "natural" rights. supports of "natural" rights just don't want to admit it.

Who owns your life, then?

kokjo

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1000

You are WRONG!

See, here we disagree again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights#Definitional_issues

The state have the right to grant rights to others.

Then you support only legal rights, and deny natural rights?

yup. i believe that all rights are artificial and are therefor not natural, which means that the whole concept of natural rights is a oxymoron.

legal rights does not lie about their artificially. they 100% man made and arbitrary, just as "natural" rights. supports of "natural" rights just don't want to admit it.

Have you ever earned an honest Krone in your life?

nope! but im hopefully going to when im done with my state paid education.

myrkul

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See, here we disagree again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights#Definitional_issues

The state have the right to grant rights to others.

Then you support only legal rights, and deny natural rights?

Quote from: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 11:43:16 AM

I come from a poor family and my mother cannot support me. Private charity for education does no longer exist in Denmark, as least not as much that it does any difference.

Taxes exist to level the playing field, and minimize the difference between rich and poor.

have you ever been poor?

Have I ever been poor? Yes, I have. I have scrimped, and saved, and STARVED, and put myself in debt to pay my own way through school, I have been homeless, sleeping in an elevator at my workplace and washing in the bathroom. I'm still not rich. I own a home, I have a family. And I got there without stealing from others. Have you ever earned an honest Krone in your life?

kokjo

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Quote from: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 11:43:16 AM

Welfare? Private charities are orders of magnitude more efficient than government welfare.

proof please. it does not feel good to beg, and be at the mercy of others. if i have the right receive to SU while under education, im not begging.

You're right, you're not begging. you're demanding. You have no right to the productivity of others without their consent.

The danish SU law disagrees with you, i have the right under danish law.

https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/r0710.aspx?id=125699

Danish law grants you the privilege of leeching off the productivity of others. Rights are not granted by laws. They cannot be taken away by laws. If that law were to change, you would lose the ability to benefit from other's work. Since you cannot lose a right, that is by definition not a right, but, in fact, a violation of other's right to their own productivity. Asking someone else to mug someone is no better than mugging them yourself.

See, here we disagree again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights#Definitional_issues

The state have the right to grant rights to others.

You might even *gasp* have to work! (Oh noes!)

...and take my focus away from my education?

i want to work, WHEN IM FINISHED WITH MY EDUCATION!

Then live off your real mother, or seek private charity, and take your support voluntarily, rather than by force.

I come from a poor family and my mother cannot support me. Private charity for education does no longer exist in Denmark, as least not as much that it does any difference.

Taxes exist to level the playing field, and minimize the difference between rich and poor.

have you ever been poor?

myrkul

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Activity: 532

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Welfare? Private charities are orders of magnitude more efficient than government welfare.

proof please. it does not feel good to beg, and be at the mercy of others. if i have the right receive to SU while under education, im not begging.

You're right, you're not begging. you're demanding. You have no right to the productivity of others without their consent.

The danish SU law disagrees with you, i have the right under danish law.

https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/r0710.aspx?id=125699

Danish law grants you the privilege of leeching off the productivity of others. Rights are not granted by laws. They cannot be taken away by laws. If that law were to change, you would lose the ability to benefit from other's work. Since you cannot lose a right, that is by definition not a right, but, in fact, a violation of other's right to their own productivity. Asking someone else to mug someone is no better than mugging them yourself.

You might even *gasp* have to work! (Oh noes!)

...and take my focus away from my education?

i want to work, WHEN IM FINISHED WITH MY EDUCATION!

Then live off your real mother, or seek private charity, and take your support voluntarily, rather than by force.

kokjo

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1000

You are WRONG!

Welfare? Private charities are orders of magnitude more efficient than government welfare.

proof please. it does not feel good to beg, and be at the mercy of others. if i have the right receive to SU while under education, im not begging.

You're right, you're not begging. you're demanding. You have no right to the productivity of others without their consent.

The danish SU law disagrees with you, i have the right under danish law.

https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/r0710.aspx?id=125699

You might even *gasp* have to work! (Oh noes!)

...and take my focus away from my education?

i want to work, WHEN IM FINISHED WITH MY EDUCATION!

myrkul

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Activity: 532

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http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2009/06/medicare-administrative-costs-are-higher-not-lower-than-for-private-insurance

Healthcare? Private insurance is much cheaper than government-funded.

proof please. i payback 500$ to the government, of what they have giving me. Its all the rich people that pays.

Roads? Pay only for those you actually use.

Shit no!

Why not? You'd prefer to pay for roads you never use?

Welfare? Private charities are orders of magnitude more efficient than government welfare.

proof please. it does not feel good to beg, and be at the mercy of others. if i have the right receive to SU while under education, im not begging.

You're right, you're not begging. you're demanding. You have no right to the productivity of others without their consent.

As for your proof:
http://mises.org/journals/jls/21_2/21_2_1.pdf

Now, with what's left over, buy better housing, a better car, better food, and tell me your life isn't better off.

no taxes, no SU. So i will get exactly 0$ every month, for which i have to pay for my education, my housing, a car, food. which gives me +2000$ in debt every month, yay! (btw. i have no car, right now. im fine with public transportation and my bike.)

I think i will stick with the government support, and pay my taxes.

Ah... So it becomes clear. You're sucking off Mama's teat, of course you would reject any plan which would actually make you responsible for your own welfare. So you would not get your student support money. You'd have to live off your real mother, or else seek a private charity. You might even *gasp* have to work! (Oh noes!)

kokjo

legendary

Activity: 1050

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You are WRONG!

Take all your tax money, set it aside. With that money, select the services you would like.

okay, i will play your little game.

Healthcare? Private insurance is much cheaper than government-funded.

proof please. i payback 500$ to the government, of what they have giving me. Its all the rich people that pays.

Roads? Pay only for those you actually use.

Shit no!

Military? A defensive force is much cheaper than one on the attack (This, likely, wouldn't change much in Denmark but what a change it would be here in the US!).

+1 that i agree on.

Welfare? Private charities are orders of magnitude more efficient than government welfare.

proof please. it does not feel good to beg, and be at the mercy of others. if i have the right receive to SU while under education, im not begging.

Quote from: kokjo on April 28, 2013, 09:26:14 AM

Now, with what's left over, buy better housing, a better car, better food, and tell me your life isn't better off.

no taxes, no SU. So i will get exactly 0$ every month, for which i have to pay for my education, my housing, a car, food. which gives me +2000$ in debt every month, yay! (btw. i have no car, right now. im fine with public transportation and my bike.)

I think i will stick with the government support, and pay my taxes.

hawkeye

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agreed. but if the dependent people can't find work(you know, the current economic crisis) it is actually a good thing to have government support, and wait for better times. if i could live my whole life on government support, i would not do it because i would get bored and i assume other people will too.

government support is only for the needing. currently i am on the governments education support, as i believe that its better for my education and in turn better for the society.

That's not what that article says.

What about the tax rates? They are bad enough here in Australia but if I had to pay that much I'd choke and certainly consider emigrating.

And if the economic crisis keeps going, like it does, how long can it last? What is the govt's balance sheet like? What are the big banks balance sheets like? All I'm saying is, I can't imagine the entire situation being in any way sustainable and in fact that's what the economists have cited in the article.

It reminds me of Australia in a way. Australians have this image of Australia being some kind of nirvana. Some kind of port away from the economic storm. The reality is that it is a property bubble. We are almost entirely dependent on China continuing to have their crazy levels of growth. Private debt is at insane levels, Foreign debt is insane. It's not a healthy situation at all when you peer under the surface.

myrkul

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Quote from: kokjo on April 28, 2013, 09:17:43 AM

Quote from: kokjo on April 28, 2013, 09:17:43 AM

Funny how abused children almost always say that. "Mommy hits me because she loves me!"

I don't feel abused, and mother denmark does not hit me.

Only because you pay up on schedule.

Quote from: kokjo on April 28, 2013, 09:17:43 AM

But i would likely get ass raped and murdered in a AnCap society.

I take this to mean that you would refuse to operate within the constraints of such a society, and not subscribe to a protection service or arbitration firm, and as such, be an outlaw. Well, if you don't play the game right, don't be surprised when you lose.

so i have to have a protection service, like im forced to or i will die?

No, but you said that you would "likely get ass raped and murdered" which implies that you would be hanging out with anal rapists and murderers, ie other outlaws. If you were a subscriber to, at the very least, an arbitration agency (and a General Submission to Arbitration is free, or at the very least, very cheap), then you would be no more or less likely to be anally raped or murdered than you are now. At least, by criminals. You'd be much less likely to get murdered by a government, or anally raped in prison.

Quote from: hawkeye on April 28, 2013, 09:19:02 AM

look at somalia, AnCap was going strong there, and people where really happy and lived in peace.

Yes, Let's look at Somalia. (Even though that's more of a anarcho-socialist arrangement.)
http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

Quote

Such was the case with Somalia’s government, which did more harm to its citizens than good.

why don't you live in Somalia if its such a good place?

yes, it did got better after their state collapsed, but its still not as good as northern Europe. you can not extrapolate like that, just because the somali governement was fucked and it got better, does not mean that it will be that way for all states of the world.

Really? Take all your tax money, set it aside. With that money, select the services you would like. Healthcare? Private insurance is much cheaper than government-funded. Roads? Pay only for those you actually use. Military? A defensive force is much cheaper than one on the attack (This, likely, wouldn't change much in Denmark but what a change it would be here in the US!). Welfare? Private charities are orders of magnitude more efficient than government welfare. Now, with what's left over, buy better housing, a better car, better food, and tell me your life isn't better off.

kokjo

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You are WRONG!

Quote from: kokjo on April 28, 2013, 08:53:05 AM

Quote from: hawkeye on April 28, 2013, 08:38:00 AM

Quote from: kokjo on April 28, 2013, 08:53:05 AM

in the state of Denmark, i have more then enough freedom to be happy. and i think giving me more freedom and responsibility would make me less happy. It is nice to have a state to blame when stuff fucks up.

Denmark, huh. No wonder you guys love the state.

Danes Rethink a Welfare State
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/world/europe/danes-rethink-a-welfare-state-ample-to-a-fault.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

But I wouldn't get too comfortable, if I were you...

aaahh yes the carina case. lol it was a huge fail.

I was shocked when I read that article. How do you guys sustain that crazy situation? How do you afford it? And how are you going to make it last? Creating a society of dependent people might look OK for awhile, but it's really unhealthy.

agreed. but if the dependent people can't find work(you know, the current economic crisis) it is actually a good thing to have government support, and wait for better times. if i could live my whole life on government support, i would not do it because i would get bored and i assume other people will too.

government support is only for the needing. currently i am on the governments education support, as i believe that its better for my education and in turn better for the society.

hawkeye

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Quote from: hawkeye on April 28, 2013, 08:38:00 AM

in the state of Denmark, i have more then enough freedom to be happy. and i think giving me more freedom and responsibility would make me less happy. It is nice to have a state to blame when stuff fucks up.

Denmark, huh. No wonder you guys love the state.

Danes Rethink a Welfare State
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/world/europe/danes-rethink-a-welfare-state-ample-to-a-fault.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

But I wouldn't get too comfortable, if I were you...

aaahh yes the carina case. lol it was a huge fail.

I was shocked when I read that article. How do you guys sustain that crazy situation? How do you afford it? And how are you going to make it last? Creating a society of dependent people might look OK for awhile, but it's really unhealthy.

kokjo

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1000

You are WRONG!

Funny how abused children almost always say that. "Mommy hits me because she loves me!"

I don't feel abused, and mother denmark does not hit me.

But i would likely get ass raped and murdered in a AnCap society.

I take this to mean that you would refuse to operate within the constraints of such a society, and not subscribe to a protection service or arbitration firm, and as such, be an outlaw. Well, if you don't play the game right, don't be surprised when you lose.

so i have to have a protection service, like im forced to or i will die?

look at somalia, AnCap was going strong there, and people where really happy and lived in peace.

Yes, Let's look at Somalia. (Even though that's more of a anarcho-socialist arrangement.)
http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

Quote

Such was the case with Somalia’s government, which did more harm to its citizens than good.

why don't you live in Somalia if its such a good place?

yes, it did got better after their state collapsed, but its still not as good as northern Europe. you can not extrapolate like that, just because the somali governement was fucked and it got better, does not mean that it will be that way for all states of the world.

myrkul

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Quote from: myrkul on April 28, 2013, 08:26:09 AM

in the state of Denmark, i have more then enough freedom to be happy. and i think giving me more freedom and responsibility would make me less happy. It is nice to have a state to blame when stuff fucks up.

Yup, personal responsibility is a bitch, it's nice to have mommy Government to fall back on, huh? Too bad she's such an abusive parent.

no, Mother Denmark is not abusive.

Funny how abused children almost always say that. "Mommy hits me because she loves me!"

But i would likely get ass raped and murdered in a AnCap society.

I take this to mean that you would refuse to operate within the constraints of such a society, and not subscribe to a protection service or arbitration firm, and as such, be an outlaw. Well, if you don't play the game right, don't be surprised when you lose.

look at somalia, AnCap was going strong there, and people where really happy and lived in peace.

Yes, Let's look at Somalia. (Even though that's more of a anarcho-socialist arrangement.)
http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf

hawkeye

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Activity: 364

Merit: 253