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oblox

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Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 08:10:18 PM

Quote from: illodin on March 08, 2015, 07:49:23 PM

Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 07:28:23 PM

The weak point would be to regulate the masternodes as MSBs.

Masternodes are not transacting coins. They can be ran in any country, not just in the USA. And moreover, I think it's guaranteed that some countries (USA very likely being one of them) will make all anonymous coins illegal eventually. At that point, it's imperative that the coin can run hidden under tor/i2p or some other solution.
...

Every time I raise the question of regulating the masternodes as MSBs

I've already answered this but will refresh your memory. At least from the standpoint of CURRENT United States qualifiers to be considered a Money Service Business, it doesn't meet any of the three. Could this guidance change in the future, sure, but I'm living under the present.

ArticMine

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Quote from: illodin on March 08, 2015, 08:16:43 PM

...
No, the response was also that the masternodes are not transacting money. And every anon coin will need to "go dark" eventually.

This comes down to 1) The regulators won't do this and 2) It won't matter anyway. The real issue here is this is a real structural weakness in Darkcoin that is not present in its closest competitor, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

oblox

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Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 08:02:29 PM

Quote from: illodin on March 08, 2015, 07:49:23 PM

Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 07:28:23 PM

Collect enough data from enough masternodes and over time one could start to unravel DRK transactions even with blinded masternodes. How resistant are blinded masternodes to this type of Sybil attack?

What is enough data? I'd say they are extremely resistant. You'd probably need to collect the data from 95% of the masternodes to get any hope of unraveling anything, and the 1000 DRK requirement for running a masternode is exactly for that purpose. To get it expensive enough to gain large enough percentage.

The question becomes what happens when one trades time for the percentage of compromised masternodes? Over a short period of time yes it may take 95% of the masternodes, but what happens where the attacker collects data over say a period of 6 months or longer using a much smaller percentage of compromised masternodes. I am talking here of a regulator or a group of regulators who persuade a fraction of the masternodes to provide the regulator(s) with data at essentially no cost to the compromised masternodes. All of this is of course separate from an attack on the proof of stake aspect of DRK (the 1000 DRK masternode requirement) using "borrowed" stake.

You want to try to piece together a web of tx's with fragments over months? Ok.

And it's not proof of stake for the last time. Proof of service if anything. There is no borrowed stake... no one is going to lend you the coins to create a masternode when they could run one themselves. /facepalm

illodin

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Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 08:10:18 PM

Quote from: illodin on March 08, 2015, 07:49:23 PM

Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 07:28:23 PM

The weak point would be to regulate the masternodes as MSBs.

Masternodes are not transacting coins. They can be ran in any country, not just in the USA. And moreover, I think it's guaranteed that some countries (USA very likely being one of them) will make all anonymous coins illegal eventually. At that point, it's imperative that the coin can run hidden under tor/i2p or some other solution.
...

Every time I raise the question of regulating the masternodes as MSBs the response is 1) This is a US only issue which it is not and 2) We will "go dark", pardon the pun, to solve the problem. This is nothing more than an admission of defeat and justifies the argument that government regulation of the masternodes is the real Achilles Heel of Darkcoin.

Edit: There is also the argument that "all anonymous coins will be made illegal anyway", which is again a further admission of defeat.

No, the response was also that the masternodes are not transacting money. And every anon coin will need to "go dark" eventually.

ArticMine

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Monero Core Team

Quote from: illodin on March 08, 2015, 07:49:23 PM

Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 07:28:23 PM

The weak point would be to regulate the masternodes as MSBs.

Masternodes are not transacting coins. They can be ran in any country, not just in the USA. And moreover, I think it's guaranteed that some countries (USA very likely being one of them) will make all anonymous coins illegal eventually. At that point, it's imperative that the coin can run hidden under tor/i2p or some other solution.
...

Every time I raise the question of regulating the masternodes as MSBs the response is 1) This is a US only issue which it is not and 2) We will "go dark", pardon the pun, to solve the problem. This is nothing more than an admission of defeat and justifies the argument that government regulation of the masternodes is the real Achilles Heel of Darkcoin.

Edit: There is also the argument that "all anonymous coins will be made illegal anyway", which is again a further admission of defeat.

ArticMine

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Quote from: illodin on March 08, 2015, 07:49:23 PM

Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 07:28:23 PM

Collect enough data from enough masternodes and over time one could start to unravel DRK transactions even with blinded masternodes. How resistant are blinded masternodes to this type of Sybil attack?

What is enough data? I'd say they are extremely resistant. You'd probably need to collect the data from 95% of the masternodes to get any hope of unraveling anything, and the 1000 DRK requirement for running a masternode is exactly for that purpose. To get it expensive enough to gain large enough percentage.

The question becomes what happens when one trades time for the percentage of compromised masternodes? Over a short period of time yes it may take 95% of the masternodes, but what happens where the attacker collects data over say a period of 6 months or longer using a much smaller percentage of compromised masternodes. I am talking here of a regulator or a group of regulators who persuade a fraction of the masternodes to provide the regulator(s) with data at essentially no cost to the compromised masternodes. All of this is of course separate from an attack on the proof of stake aspect of DRK (the 1000 DRK masternode requirement) using "borrowed" stake.

illodin

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Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 07:28:23 PM

The weak point would be to regulate the masternodes as MSBs.

Masternodes are not transacting coins. They can be ran in any country, not just in the USA. And moreover, I think it's guaranteed that some countries (USA very likely being one of them) will make all anonymous coins illegal eventually. At that point, it's imperative that the coin can run hidden under tor/i2p or some other solution.

Quote from: ArticMine on March 08, 2015, 07:28:23 PM

Collect enough data from enough masternodes and over time one could start to unravel DRK transactions even with blinded masternodes. How resistant are blinded masternodes to this type of Sybil attack?

What is enough data? I'd say they are extremely resistant. You'd probably need to collect the data from 95% of the masternodes depending on the rounds of mixing used to get any hope of unraveling anything, and the 1000 DRK requirement for running a masternode is exactly for that purpose. To get it expensive enough to gain large enough percentage.

Kuriso

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Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on March 08, 2015, 06:33:59 PM

Quote from: Kuriso on March 08, 2015, 12:46:33 PM

He isn't asking you to track his web traffic so why are you asking him to track yours? Why is it not possible for you guys to directly answer a question or take a challenge? He's asking you to track coins sent from one address to another. Who the fuck cares about the rest of your net traffic. Break the anonymous transaction.

You sure are good at playing dumb. But just in case you're not:

Smooth's point is that just because your system is secure against regular folk doesn't mean it's invulnerable to greater threats with more access and resources (ISPs, large corporations, governments, etc.).

Just like you can't deanonymize smooth's web browsing, he can't identify your transactions. Does that imply either are truly anonymous or secure? Nope.

Is this starting to make sense to you?

This is why "put up or shut up" is an argument for retards: Link my bitcoin address to my identity. Go ahead, Kuriso. Can't you do it? If not, then I guess we don't even need darkcoin, right?

I do try to dumb it down a bit. Most people only read at a 7th grade level. Do you fit into this category?

Did you respond to my previous post before reading the rest of the posts made? Who here has claimed to be able to track an address to a personal identity? I surely never have but this could happen when: a) you decide to buy something and have to provide personal information like shipping, b) your ISP or gov agency tracks traffic from your IP to an IP that is associated with an anon coin that's on a watch list, c) face to face transactions where you are not wearing a mask and driving your own car Grin

. Any of the 3 possibilities are a problem for any and every coin.

I digress again.... The OP and the purpose of this thread was to confirm or debunk the "... possible proof ..." that DRK's transactions were traceable. The OP suggests that the transactions are traceable. With the block explorer no less. So far its been proven wrong yet shills and fud'sters continue to say its possible by going off on completely different scenarios. Again, focus on the purpose of this thread. Prove the transactions themselves are traceable.

This is where the "put up or shut up" argument becomes VERY valid. If DRK's darksend transactions are traceable, prove it or STFU and move on.

ArticMine

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The weak point would be to regulate the masternodes as MSBs. Collect enough data from enough masternodes and over time one could start to unravel DRK transactions even with blinded masternodes. How resistant are blinded masternodes to this type of Sybil attack?

kadrek

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Quote from: RenegadeMan on March 08, 2015, 06:51:43 PM

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on March 08, 2015, 06:33:59 PM

Quote from: Kuriso on March 08, 2015, 12:46:33 PM

He isn't asking you to track his web traffic so why are you asking him to track yours? Why is it not possible for you guys to directly answer a question or take a challenge? He's asking you to track coins sent from one address to another. Who the fuck cares about the rest of your net traffic. Break the anonymous transaction.

You sure are good at playing dumb. But just in case you're not:

Smooth's point is that just because your system is secure against regular folk doesn't mean it's invulnerable to greater threats with more access and resources (ISPs, large corporations, governments, etc.).

Just like you can't deanonymize smooth's web browsing, he can't identify your transactions. Does that imply either are truly anonymous or secure? Nope.

Is this starting to make sense to you?

This is why "put up or shut up" is an argument for retards: Link my bitcoin address to my identity. Go ahead, Kuriso. Can't you do it? If not, then I guess we don't even need darkcoin, right?

Just more of the same. FFS! You people are unbelievably determined to keep moving the conversation off onto a tangential angle away from the issue at hand to a whole raft of other hypothetical possibilities that are so far out in "one in ten trillion" land it's a pointless exercise.

No one is saying Darkcoin's anon is "for regular folk", its anonymity is ANONYMITY.....period.

Demonstrate to us HOW Darkcoin's anonymity can be broken.

It's simple.....it's what this thread is about.....it's what's troubling you all just SOOO MUCH!

Do it.....or SHUT UP.....that's the whole point of this thread and all your other stuff is just rhetoric and a never ending attempt to discredit Darkcoin.

Lame....so lame.

Exactly this.

RenegadeMan

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Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on March 08, 2015, 06:33:59 PM

Quote from: Kuriso on March 08, 2015, 12:46:33 PM

He isn't asking you to track his web traffic so why are you asking him to track yours? Why is it not possible for you guys to directly answer a question or take a challenge? He's asking you to track coins sent from one address to another. Who the fuck cares about the rest of your net traffic. Break the anonymous transaction.

You sure are good at playing dumb. But just in case you're not:

Smooth's point is that just because your system is secure against regular folk doesn't mean it's invulnerable to greater threats with more access and resources (ISPs, large corporations, governments, etc.).

Just like you can't deanonymize smooth's web browsing, he can't identify your transactions. Does that imply either are truly anonymous or secure? Nope.

Is this starting to make sense to you?

This is why "put up or shut up" is an argument for retards: Link my bitcoin address to my identity. Go ahead, Kuriso. Can't you do it? If not, then I guess we don't even need darkcoin, right?

Just more of the same. FFS! You people are unbelievably determined to keep moving the conversation off onto a tangential angle away from the issue at hand to a whole raft of other hypothetical possibilities that are so far out in "one in ten trillion" land it's a pointless exercise.

No one is saying Darkcoin's anon is "for regular folk", its anonymity is ANONYMITY.....period.

Demonstrate to us HOW Darkcoin's anonymity can be broken.

It's simple.....it's what this thread is about.....it's what's troubling you all just SOOO MUCH!

Do it.....or SHUT UP.....that's the whole point of this thread and all your other stuff is just rhetoric and a never ending attempt to discredit Darkcoin.

Lame....so lame.

RenegadeMan

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Johnny Mnemonic

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Quote from: Kuriso on March 08, 2015, 12:46:33 PM

He isn't asking you to track his web traffic so why are you asking him to track yours? Why is it not possible for you guys to directly answer a question or take a challenge? He's asking you to track coins sent from one address to another. Who the fuck cares about the rest of your net traffic. Break the anonymous transaction.

You sure are good at playing dumb. But just in case you're not:

Smooth's point is that just because your system is secure against regular folk doesn't mean it's invulnerable to greater threats with more access and resources (ISPs, large corporations, governments, etc.).

Just like you can't deanonymize smooth's web browsing, he can't identify your transactions. Does that imply either are truly anonymous or secure? Nope.

Is this starting to make sense to you?

This is why "put up or shut up" is an argument for retards: Link my bitcoin address to my identity. Go ahead, Kuriso. Can't you do it? If not, then I guess we don't even need darkcoin, right?

bitcreditscc

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Quote from: Este Nuno on March 08, 2015, 04:51:54 PM

Isn't bloat kind of a non-issue at this point considering even Bitcoin itself is likely going to be moving towards 20mb blocks and beyond? In a sense Bitcoin's existence and continued growth of its blockchain will demonstrate whether or not bloat is really going to be a limiting factor.

Actually, that is MAX block size. For now most blocks will remain the same size. ~ 1 MB

Este Nuno

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amarha

Isn't bloat kind of a non-issue at this point considering even Bitcoin itself is likely going to be moving towards 20mb blocks and beyond? In a sense Bitcoin's existence and continued growth of its blockchain will demonstrate whether or not bloat is really going to be a limiting factor.

Kuriso

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Quote from: Joshuar on March 08, 2015, 03:16:52 PM

Quote from: Kuriso on March 08, 2015, 02:31:54 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on March 08, 2015, 02:16:52 PM

Quote from: Lukas_Jackson on March 08, 2015, 02:14:32 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on March 08, 2015, 01:43:35 PM

for funs sake: a drkler needs to steal mutliple cars before he even can go out Wink

From A to Z please...after 16 rounds

i really like that comparison.... stealing a car is dangerous and you may get caught.

fits perfectly to masternodes Cheesy

Applies to any anon coin. You think monero is any different? Tell me how monero provides anonymity for my personal information when I have to provide it for shipping. Show me how monero provides protections for face to face transactions. How does monero protect my browser traffic? It doesn't do any of that nor does any other coin. That's the point. So why do your monero shills constantly deflect and muddy the water with all of these different situations?

Focus on the purpose of this thread. Prove the transactions themselves are traceable.

That's quite silly. The discussion is about the anonymous currency's protocol, not other external factors(Like shipping information) that would de-anonymize you.

Sure it's silly but go back a few post and see where RenegadeMan ask smooth (or anyone else) to prove the transaction is traceable and smooth continues to shift the conversation and talks about tracking his web browsing in an attempt to tie that to tracking anon transactions. I had a bit of fun and attempted to point out that's there's several more realistic problems with anonymity. The coin tech is just 1 layer of the puzzle.

I digress.... That's not what this thread was started for. The thread suggest that the transactions are traceable. With the block explorer no less. So far its been proven wrong yet shills and fud-artist continue to tell you its possible by going off on completely different scenarios. Again, focus on the purpose of this thread. Prove the transactions themselves are traceable.

Kuriso

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Quote from: barwizi on March 08, 2015, 03:12:20 PM

Quote from: tacotime on March 08, 2015, 02:41:08 PM

Quote from: Kuriso on March 08, 2015, 12:46:33 PM

It’s significant to this debate that Darkcoin had ring signatures on its roadmap and decided against implementing them (for now) because of adverse practical issues associated with their use - in particular the bloat problem.

DRK's solution is also O(n) in size and thus has the same relative amount of bloat, as I stated earlier in the thread... The only real reason I can see that DRK stuck to their CoinJoin model was because so much effort had already been made into writing a method of trying to decentralize CoinJoins, and because implementing ring signatures is a giant pain in the ass (you need to keep track of a whole separate database where you keep outputs of the same age in order of their incidence in the blockchain, for one).

Hmm, but the question is can a transaction be traced?

I have heard that SDC tried to apply ring signatures, how does their bloat compare?

child_harold and smooth talking about SDC ring sigs: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10688532

Joshuar

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eidoo wallet

Quote from: Kuriso on March 08, 2015, 02:31:54 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on March 08, 2015, 02:16:52 PM

Quote from: Lukas_Jackson on March 08, 2015, 02:14:32 PM

Quote from: onemorexmr on March 08, 2015, 01:43:35 PM

for funs sake: a drkler needs to steal mutliple cars before he even can go out Wink

From A to Z please...after 16 rounds

i really like that comparison.... stealing a car is dangerous and you may get caught.

fits perfectly to masternodes Cheesy

Applies to any anon coin. You think monero is any different? Tell me how monero provides anonymity for my personal information when I have to provide it for shipping. Show me how monero provides protections for face to face transactions. How does monero protect my browser traffic? It doesn't do any of that nor does any other coin. That's the point. So why do your monero shills constantly deflect and muddy the water with all of these different situations?

Focus on the purpose of this thread. Prove the transactions themselves are traceable.

That's quite silly. The discussion is about the anonymous currency's protocol, not other external factors(Like shipping information) that would de-anonymize you.

barwizi

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Quote from: tacotime on March 08, 2015, 02:41:08 PM

Quote from: Kuriso on March 08, 2015, 12:46:33 PM

It’s significant to this debate that Darkcoin had ring signatures on its roadmap and decided against implementing them (for now) because of adverse practical issues associated with their use - in particular the bloat problem.

DRK's solution is also O(n) in size and thus has the same relative amount of bloat, as I stated earlier in the thread... The only real reason I can see that DRK stuck to their CoinJoin model was because so much effort had already been made into writing a method of trying to decentralize CoinJoins, and because implementing ring signatures is a giant pain in the ass (you need to keep track of a whole separate database where you keep outputs of the same age in order of their incidence in the blockchain, for one).

Hmm, but the question is can a transaction be traced?

I have heard that SDC tried to apply ring signatures, how does their bloat compare?

tacotime

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Quote from: Kuriso on March 08, 2015, 12:46:33 PM

It’s significant to this debate that Darkcoin had ring signatures on its roadmap and decided against implementing them (for now) because of adverse practical issues associated with their use - in particular the bloat problem.

DRK's solution is also O(n) in size and thus has the same relative amount of bloat, as I stated earlier in the thread... The only real reason I can see that DRK stuck to their CoinJoin model was because so much effort had already been made into writing a method of trying to decentralize CoinJoins, and because implementing ring signatures is a giant pain in the ass (you need to keep track of a whole separate database where you keep outputs of the same age in order of their incidence in the blockchain, for one).

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