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Topic: This message was too old and has been purged - page 7. (Read 26100 times)

legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
You cannot argue logic with people that have an agenda, they are bag holders and will argue with every fallacy they can squirm into.

I can't believe you guys have the patience to deal with these fools, let them sink when their ship does. It makes no difference in the end anyway. Smiley
Maybe if your dev wasn't in here arguing about petty things XMR might see some progress. If you haven't noticed, Evan hasn't been in here arguing. I think that shows the work ethic of both of them.  Wink

NOW this is amusing! EVAN is the ONE person who should be in this thread!
He did address the claimed issue.

You mean where he posted It's random this and random that and you can never unravel it so go ahead and do it?

Let me let you in on a little secret, IT is IMPOSSIBLE for a computer to generate anything random except a fire maybe. Cheesy

What he should be doing is answering posts like this.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10683089

AND especially this!

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10684983






You are intentionally using misleading statements and it's no surprise that you would refer to posts by an open supporter of XMR, and we alll know the disgusting habits of XMR supporters.

Let me correct you before you think you can get away with what is tantamount to a lie

 
Quote
IT is IMPOSSIBLE for a computer to generate anything random except a fire maybe. Cheesy

Quote
Several computational methods for random number generation exist. Many fall short of the goal of true randomness — though they may meet, with varying success, some of the statistical tests for randomness intended to measure how unpredictable their results are (that is, to what degree their patterns are discernible).

In response to

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10683089

let me pose you an interesting concept-- "The proof is in the pudding" Many a so called developer have written proofs and whitepapers, yet very few came through with an actual product. The OP conceded defeat in his original hypothesis and has returned to the drawing board.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10684983

Now that is sheer desperation. This thread was made buy a guy who jumped the gun, and was proven wrong. Leave it to XMR fanboys to turn it into a discussion about difficulty and emissions.  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
You cannot argue logic with people that have an agenda, they are bag holders and will argue with every fallacy they can squirm into.

I can't believe you guys have the patience to deal with these fools, let them sink when their ship does. It makes no difference in the end anyway. Smiley
Maybe if your dev wasn't in here arguing about petty things XMR might see some progress. If you haven't noticed, Evan hasn't been in here arguing. I think that shows the work ethic of both of them.  Wink

NOW this is amusing! EVAN is the ONE person who should be in this thread!
He did address the claimed issue.

You mean where he posted It's random this and random that and you can never unravel it so go ahead and do it?

Let me let you in on a little secret, IT is IMPOSSIBLE for a computer to generate anything random except a fire maybe. Cheesy

What he should be doing is answering posts like this.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10683089

AND especially this!

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.10684983
sr. member
Activity: 327
Merit: 250
You cannot argue logic with people that have an agenda, they are bag holders and will argue with every fallacy they can squirm into.

I can't believe you guys have the patience to deal with these fools, let them sink when their ship does. It makes no difference in the end anyway. Smiley
Maybe if your dev wasn't in here arguing about petty things XMR might see some progress. If you haven't noticed, Evan hasn't been in here arguing. I think that shows the work ethic of both of them.  Wink

NOW this is amusing! EVAN is the ONE person who should be in this thread!
He did address the claimed issue.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
(a) don't require a MN (centralized) to do mixing

This is ultimately what really matters and renders the rest of the mixing process irrelevant (though flaws in that, such as those allegedly found by the OP, can compound the failure and make things even worse).

Masternodes can't be trusted, and their behavior can't be verified. Even with so-called "blinding" the necessarily information to reverse the mixing still flows throw masternodes and therefore its security can never be trusted. If someone comes up with a way to do this without disclosing the private information to the masternodes, then it could be a system that isn't entirely unsound in the sense of having an undetectable information leak. But that is not DRK.

Quote
become progressively more pernicious in their activities

Exactly. There is no mechanism to prevent that. Information is valuable, so masternodes will collect it, sell it, and likely inadvertently leak it. In some sense the best case possible would be the NSA actually running them all. At least they won't sell it.



legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1005
Well, I haven't really gone through the entire thread but I don't think the DRK CoinJoin is entirely unsound from the perspective of being a centralized CoinJoin.

The theory is basically, you have n many outputs (O_n) of denomination size D. For simplicity, for any O_n there is an owner Z_n.

Z_n sends her output O_n to a masternode (MN) along with a new receiving address A_n. The MN shuffles these O_n as inputs and makes shuffled outputs to A_n in a single tx. The tx is then signed by all Z_n. The MN submits the tx to the network and the outputs are indistinguishable to everyone except the MN. Well, they're slightly known to the participants too, because they know which address and input is theirs.

It suffers from some of the same flaws as ring signatures (I'm not going to go over that, we've already published on them). But at the same time, ring signatures (a) don't require a MN (centralized) to do mixing because you can use any previous outpoint and (b) are somewhat more expensive space wise (but not really; see below) and (c) the MNs know 100% the outputs owned by their participants, who obviously have to connect to them somehow over TCP/IP. The last point is a big deal in terms of privacy, and even with Tor you can have timing correlation attacks.

The size of the ring signature is O(n), but then again, so is sequential DarkCoin mixing, per mix tx. The cost per mix for DRK is that of the signed input and output for the recipient, and the obfuscational security of a single tx is also O(n). For the latter I mean number of participants in terms of inputs/outputs... obviously a single participant is useless, and two participants is nearly useless. So, the DRK method still introduces O(n) bloat. It just load balances it differently.

The fact that the MNs are the centralized authority in the CoinJoin and now in network consensus (as of instant tx, since the MN decide which chain is valid by which tx is allowed to be in it) is more of an issue, along with providing correct incentives. Long term most of the rewards go to the MNs who I would guess will, over time, become progressively more pernicious in their activities. Another issue is legal ones for potential people running MNs, as they're effectively laundering money on behalf of the participants and directly benefiting from doing so monetarily.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
You cannot argue logic with people that have an agenda, they are bag holders and will argue with every fallacy they can squirm into.

I can't believe you guys have the patience to deal with these fools, let them sink when their ship does. It makes no difference in the end anyway. Smiley
Maybe if your dev wasn't in here arguing about petty things XMR might see some progress. If you haven't noticed, Evan hasn't been in here arguing. I think that shows the work ethic of both of them.  Wink

NOW this is amusing! EVAN is the ONE person who should be in this thread!
sr. member
Activity: 327
Merit: 250
You cannot argue logic with people that have an agenda, they are bag holders and will argue with every fallacy they can squirm into.

I can't believe you guys have the patience to deal with these fools, let them sink when their ship does. It makes no difference in the end anyway. Smiley
Maybe if your dev wasn't in here arguing about petty things XMR might see some progress. If you haven't noticed, Evan hasn't been in here arguing. I think that shows the work ethic of both of them.  Wink
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
You cannot argue logic with people that have an agenda, they are bag holders and will argue with every fallacy they can squirm into.

I can't believe you guys have the patience to deal with these fools, let them sink when their ship does. It makes no difference in the end anyway. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1002
Decentralize Everything
* child_harold enters stage left
Wink
* child_harold exits stage right

Ok, I LOL'd
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
* child_harold enters stage left
Wink
* child_harold exits stage right
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500

Dark mainstream adoption is starting to happen? That's a good one! Funny!



To my knowledge we have 59 merchants accepting DRK.  From VPS providers, VPN Providers to hardware stores, wine merchants, 3d printing services, a lawyer(!)


Good thing too. Sounds like people using DRK are going to need one! Tongue

(sorry, couldn't resist Cheesy)
I always have at least 2 law firms on retainer at all times, 1 personal, 1 corporate.  I should set them up to accept some DRK/BTC.  thanks for the suggestion.  Wink
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha

Dark mainstream adoption is starting to happen? That's a good one! Funny!



To my knowledge we have 59 merchants accepting DRK.  From VPS providers, VPN Providers to hardware stores, wine merchants, 3d printing services, a lawyer(!)


Good thing too. Sounds like people using DRK are going to need one! Tongue

(sorry, couldn't resist Cheesy)
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
To my knowledge we have 59 merchants accepting DRK.  From VPS providers, VPN Providers to hardware stores, wine merchants, 3d printing services, a lawyer(!), precious metals traders, electronics shops to general shops.

Thats a respectable achievement

For a generic brand of peanuts maybe.

Where can I spend my SDC? 
Before you can spent something you must have it.

 Roll Eyes  got to love haters!
PoS
full member
Activity: 223
Merit: 101
If you can be anything, be kind and fair
To my knowledge we have 59 merchants accepting DRK.  From VPS providers, VPN Providers to hardware stores, wine merchants, 3d printing services, a lawyer(!), precious metals traders, electronics shops to general shops.

Thats a respectable achievement

For a generic brand of peanuts maybe.

Where can I spend my SDC? 
Before you can spent something you must have it.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1002
Decentralize Everything
To my knowledge we have 59 merchants accepting DRK.  From VPS providers, VPN Providers to hardware stores, wine merchants, 3d printing services, a lawyer(!), precious metals traders, electronics shops to general shops.

Thats a respectable achievement

For a generic brand of peanuts maybe.

Where can I spend my SDC? 
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1050
To my knowledge we have 59 merchants accepting DRK.  From VPS providers, VPN Providers to hardware stores, wine merchants, 3d printing services, a lawyer(!), precious metals traders, electronics shops to general shops.

Thats a respectable achievement

For a generic brand of peanuts maybe.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
To my knowledge we have 59 merchants accepting DRK.  From VPS providers, VPN Providers to hardware stores, wine merchants, 3d printing services, a lawyer(!), precious metals traders, electronics shops to general shops.

Thats a respectable achievement
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1002
Decentralize Everything

Dark mainstream adoption is starting to happen? That's a good one! Funny!



To my knowledge we have 59 merchants accepting DRK.  From VPS providers, VPN Providers to hardware stores, wine merchants, 3d printing services, a lawyer(!), precious metals traders, electronics shops to general shops.

59 isn't much, agreed, but its a start.  Glad it makes you laugh. 
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Maybe you should take a look at the Kristov Atlas review on DRK

I have read it but thank you for the suggestion anyway!

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work to 3rd parties to develop wallets (how is this secure)

Most if not all of the wallets are wrappers around the core code or recompile and link with core code. They did not reimplement the cryptography. Good question though!

Quote
that time Dark adoption will be mainstream and too late for Monero to even be noticed. Oh wait thats already starting to happen.

Dark mainstream adoption is starting to happen? That's a good one! Funny!

legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1050
What a viper. In almost every post you are trying to cut drk head to feel a bit taller.

The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.

I'm criticizing some aspects of DRK because they are deeply flawed and snake oil anonymity is profoundly dangerous. If you want to ascribe other motives to avoid confronting the inconvenient truth of your emperor having no clothes, I can't stop you.

I'm also not going to remain silent and watch people hawking this crap without speaking out just to avoid being called names or accused of "talking trash'

Your wallet seems pretty, the logo is good, InstantX seems cool, I have no problem with any of these things, and there are probably other parts of the DRK project that are great. Anonymity-wise your whole approach is a disaster. Sorry.,


Why don't you write a paper on why darksend is a disaster rather than just post here saying that it is without going into details?  That way you could really give people facts to help their decision making.

Not an entirely bad idea I must say. Thank you for the suggestion.

Maybe you should take a look at the Kristov Atlas review on DRK..all the concerns that were raised were fixed....although I dont think his review will live up to your standards will it. You live in a mindset the the world is doomed and apart from digging a hole and burring yourself, there is no solution.

At the end of the day Dark is winning because we are moving forward and continuously have innovation to SHOW. Monero is still stuck trying to farm off work to 3rd parties to develop wallets (how is this secure)  whilst they deal with database and bloat issues. You arent moving forward, just stuck in the mud and slowly sinking.

So yes, feel free to continue throwing around your "its my way or the highway with cryptography" statements which will take 30 years to complete. By that time Dark adoption will be mainstream and too late for Monero to even be noticed. Oh wait thats already starting to happen.



*facepalm* Would you kindly remove yourself from the internets please. It is quite clear that you have never contributed anything but dribble to it thus wasting perfectly good server space.
This topic is about a possibly deanonomised, anon CRYPTO project. Smooth seems to be replying only to the onslaught of loaded statements. But you are just being a doofus, as usual.

Be nice if we can stop the dick measuring and actually just get on with the topic.
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