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Topic: This sums it up well. - page 6. (Read 6171 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
May 31, 2013, 11:26:27 PM
#63
Wow, I just did a calculation and if you work 40 hours a week for 4 weeks @ $8/hr you only get $1,200.
And that's before taxes. And the other state and federal withholdings.

To say nothing of the 5-10% of your money that gets sucked away every time you buy something (unless you live in New Hampshire)
But that's fine, because they can apply for welfare and get free food, even cigarettes in some states Smiley
You don't get it, do you? It's not free. It's paid for by that very money that was stolen from them!
No YOU don't get it. If we paid them just A LITTLE MORE, they 1. Wouldn't need it 2. Wouldn't qualify
Or, maybe just stopped robbing them of 20-30% of their pay?
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
May 31, 2013, 11:25:44 PM
#62
Taxes may be wrong but they are constitutional. Sorry guys, taxes may be evil, but they are libertarian. Unless that libertarian is also a secessionist.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
May 31, 2013, 11:25:00 PM
#61
I disagree on both counts.  And therefore, there isn't much left to debate.  You seem to have taken a position that is ideological/philosophical in nature.  I have taken one that is based in the realities of the world we live in.

You're really saying that:
a) roads and other infrastructure, the protection of private property, and the other various benefits that a government provides to it's citizens could not be voluntarily funded, and;
b) that robbery is moral if I have a jacket that says IRS?
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
May 31, 2013, 11:24:21 PM
#60
Wow, I just did a calculation and if you work 40 hours a week for 4 weeks @ $8/hr you only get $1,200.
And that's before taxes. And the other state and federal withholdings.

To say nothing of the 5-10% of your money that gets sucked away every time you buy something (unless you live in New Hampshire)
But that's fine, because they can apply for welfare and get free food, even cigarettes in some states Smiley
You don't get it, do you? It's not free. It's paid for by that very money that was stolen from them!

No YOU don't get it. If we paid them just A LITTLE MORE, they 1. Wouldn't need it 2. Wouldn't qualify
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Whoa, there are a lot of cats in this wall.
May 31, 2013, 11:21:14 PM
#59
I only see one wrong. 
The government taking money by force?
You mean taxes? 
Yes, that is the definition of taxation.

Close, but an incomplete definition.

A tax is a pecuniary burden laid upon individuals or property owners to support the government [...] a payment exacted by legislative authority." It "is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority" and is "any contribution imposed by government [...] whether under the name of toll, tribute, tallage, gabel, impost, duty, custom, excise, subsidy, aid, supply, or other name.  Money provided by taxation has been used by states and their functional equivalents throughout history to carry out many functions. Some of these include expenditures on war, the enforcement of law and public order, protection of property, economic infrastructure (roads, legal tender, enforcement of contracts, etc.), public works, social engineering, subsidies, and the operation of government itself.

You only include the burden in your definition, not the benefit.
The benefit can be achieved without the force.

Wow, I just did a calculation and if you work 40 hours a week for 4 weeks @ $8/hr you only get $1,200.

And that's before taxes. And the other state and federal withholdings.

To say nothing of the 5-10% of your money that gets sucked away every time you buy something (unless you live in New Hampshire)

Somewhere we both can probably agree however, is that certain types of taxes are immoral or wrong.  A sales tax being one of those.
All taxes are immoral, and wrong.

I disagree on both counts.  And therefore, there isn't much left to debate.  You seem to have taken a position that is ideological/philosophical in nature.  I have taken one that is based in the realities of the world we live in.

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
May 31, 2013, 11:14:43 PM
#58
Wow, I just did a calculation and if you work 40 hours a week for 4 weeks @ $8/hr you only get $1,200.
And that's before taxes. And the other state and federal withholdings.

To say nothing of the 5-10% of your money that gets sucked away every time you buy something (unless you live in New Hampshire)
But that's fine, because they can apply for welfare and get free food, even cigarettes in some states Smiley
You don't get it, do you? It's not free. It's paid for by that very money that was stolen from them!
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
May 31, 2013, 11:14:34 PM
#57
My point is that the job creators could solve all of this.

They could, but it's not like forcing them to do so will make things any better.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
May 31, 2013, 11:12:05 PM
#56
You only include the burden in your definition, not the benefit.
The benefit can be achieved without the force. And the proper definition of "taxation" does not include what the government then proceeds to do with the funds acquired through taxation, but only the means of acquiring the funds.

Somewhere we both can probably agree however, is that certain types of taxes are immoral or wrong.  A sales tax being one of those.
All taxes are immoral, and wrong.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
May 31, 2013, 11:10:50 PM
#55
My point is that the job creators could solve all of this.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Whoa, there are a lot of cats in this wall.
May 31, 2013, 11:10:08 PM
#54
Wow, I just did a calculation and if you work 40 hours a week for 4 weeks @ $8/hr you only get $1,200.

And that's before taxes. And the other state and federal withholdings.

To say nothing of the 5-10% of your money that gets sucked away every time you buy something (unless you live in New Hampshire)

Something we both can probably agree on however, is that certain types of taxes are immoral or wrong.  A sales tax being one of those.  
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
May 31, 2013, 11:09:57 PM
#53
Wow, I just did a calculation and if you work 40 hours a week for 4 weeks @ $8/hr you only get $1,200.

And that's before taxes. And the other state and federal withholdings.

To say nothing of the 5-10% of your money that gets sucked away every time you buy something (unless you live in New Hampshire)

But that's fine, because they can apply for welfare and get free food, even cigarettes in some states Smiley
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
May 31, 2013, 11:08:48 PM
#52
Wow, I just did a calculation and if you work 40 hours a week for 4 weeks @ $8/hr you only get $1,200.

And that's before taxes. And the other state and federal withholdings.

To say nothing of the 5-10% of your money that gets sucked away every time you buy something (unless you live in New Hampshire)
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Whoa, there are a lot of cats in this wall.
May 31, 2013, 11:07:58 PM
#51

Please try reading. I was agreeing with you that the workers are owed money for work. Again, that is called "pay." And, again, I clearly recall getting a paycheck when I worked at Walmart. They even cashed it for me.


And how much did you get paid if you worked part time? Say, a 90 year old woman who says hello at the door for 4-8 hours 3 days a week?
And what benefits did you get?
And how many part time employees worked there?
Well, I'm not a 90 year-old woman, and I didn't say hello at the door part time. I worked in the freezer, pulling apart pallets and stocking the shelves. I don't recall the hourly rate, but it was significantly better than minimum wage, and I was able to support myself just fine. I don't recall all my bennies, either, but I do know I had a 401(k) through them. I think I had health insurance, too.
I only see one wrong. 
The government taking money by force?
You mean taxes? 
Yes, that is the definition of taxation.

Close, but an incomplete definition.

A tax is a pecuniary burden laid upon individuals or property owners to support the government [...] a payment exacted by legislative authority." It "is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority" and is "any contribution imposed by government [...] whether under the name of toll, tribute, tallage, gabel, impost, duty, custom, excise, subsidy, aid, supply, or other name.  Money provided by taxation has been used by states and their functional equivalents throughout history to carry out many functions. Some of these include expenditures on war, the enforcement of law and public order, protection of property, economic infrastructure (roads, legal tender, enforcement of contracts, etc.), public works, social engineering, subsidies, and the operation of government itself.

You only include the burden in your definition, not the benefit.  
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
May 31, 2013, 11:04:31 PM
#50
We'll give the kids a coat (Education system)
Violent people or people who have been tricked get a coat (Military)
Politicians get coats (Public Service Salary)
Even Bankers get a coat (Bailouts)

But you're worried about the POOR guy getting a coat!?!?!??!?!?

Did you know most Wal Mart employees qualify for welfare? How bout you stop bitching at poor people, and tell Wal Mart to get THEIR employees off welfare. And they aren't the only ones.

Sounds about right.  When the poor get money from the government it's called welfare.  When the rich get money from the government its called a bailout.  



Two wrongs don't make one right.

I only see one wrong.  

Two wrongs is exactly what it is. If I do one thing wrong, like paying my workers too little, what law should do is asking me to correct my wrong by raising my pay(not that I agree but let's leave it at it for a moment). What a tax bill does is to create another wrong instead: claiming that without violating the contemporary laws, what I have been doing for many years have all became unacceptable retroactively, so a percentage of my wealth should be confiscated to compensate the workers, no matter how much additional damage it will wrought me.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
May 31, 2013, 11:02:51 PM
#49
Wow, I just did a calculation and if you work 40 hours a week for 4 weeks @ $8/hr you only get $1,200

So if you work for minimum wage in America you make SHIT even working 40 hours a week. And can probably apply for welfare.
So imagine what people are making that work 10-30 hours.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
May 31, 2013, 11:00:43 PM
#48

Please try reading. I was agreeing with you that the workers are owed money for work. Again, that is called "pay." And, again, I clearly recall getting a paycheck when I worked at Walmart. They even cashed it for me.


And how much did you get paid if you worked part time? Say, a 90 year old woman who says hello at the door for 4-8 hours 3 days a week?
And what benefits did you get?
And how many part time employees worked there?
Well, I'm not a 90 year-old woman, and I didn't say hello at the door part time. I worked in the freezer, pulling apart pallets and stocking the shelves. I don't recall the hourly rate, but it was significantly better than minimum wage, and I was able to support myself just fine. I don't recall all my bennies, either, but I do know I had a 401(k) through them. I think I had health insurance, too.
EDIT: I remember I got an employee discount, too. Nothing special, 5% or so... and that was applied before tax, too. It was pretty nice.
I only see one wrong. 
The government taking money by force?
You mean taxes? 
Yes, that is the definition of taxation.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
May 31, 2013, 10:59:44 PM
#47
BTW, "Qualifying for welfare" means you make less than $1,400 a month.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
Google/YouTube
May 31, 2013, 10:57:19 PM
#46

"Oh, it's really terrible!  Those Walmart employees can't afford their second plasma TV and caviar is just not an option for them.  What is the world coming to?"

LOL, they can't afford the FIRST plasma TV, smart ass.
Unless they go to rent a center.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 253
May 31, 2013, 10:56:03 PM
#45
And by the way YOU are the king of missing the point.
I said that Wal Mart should get it's employees off welfare. That doesn't just apply to the welfare picture, but by YOUR logic (and that cartoon) applies to all of it.

If Wal Mart would PAY its employees, there would be less people needing coats. Then everyone could see who really needed coats.

Isn't this Walmart thing a myth?  That most of them are actually getting along just fine.

"Getting along just fine" is completely possible, that doesn't mean they don't qualify or use welfare though.

Right.  The phrase is used to denote whether someone is in the poor house or not, but when you examine it closely it actually doesn't have the meaning it seems to.

"Oh, it's really terrible!  Those Walmart employees can't afford their second plasma TV and caviar is just not an option for them.  What is the world coming to?"
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Whoa, there are a lot of cats in this wall.
May 31, 2013, 10:55:05 PM
#44
We'll give the kids a coat (Education system)
Violent people or people who have been tricked get a coat (Military)
Politicians get coats (Public Service Salary)
Even Bankers get a coat (Bailouts)

But you're worried about the POOR guy getting a coat!?!?!??!?!?

Did you know most Wal Mart employees qualify for welfare? How bout you stop bitching at poor people, and tell Wal Mart to get THEIR employees off welfare. And they aren't the only ones.

Sounds about right.  When the poor get money from the government it's called welfare.  When the rich get money from the government its called a bailout. 



Two wrongs don't make one right.

I only see one wrong. 
The government taking money by force?

You mean taxes?  
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