Zooko (CEO of Zcash) is answering questions live now for the next 2 hours if anyone wants to participate:
https://forum.bitcoin.com/post16211.html
Topic: Thoughts on Zcash? - page 66. (Read 123361 times)
have the project sales zcash? where is I can buy it?
https://forum.bitcoin.com/ama-ask-me-anything/i-m-zooko-wilcox-ceo-of-the-zcash-company-ask-me-anything-t5413.html
Quote
Hello Zooko,
I'm interested in reading your goals and motivations for taking on anonymity in general or anonymous digital cash specifically as your priority project?
Haven't you seen the new laws coming (eventually in all Five Eyes countries I've heard from reliable sources) that will ban end-to-end encryption?
To that end do you expect to support a viewkey or other way that users individually or a global backdoor, so that Zcash can be compliant with the lurch towards a 666 NWO which seems to be rapidly taking form now (and I assert will accelerate with the full global contagion sovereign debt collapse 2017 -2020)?
I am all for the ideology, but I am also pragmatic. We as society may have to fight with social networking and the political-economic revolution of a DIY economy, e.g. self-publishing, 3D printing, etc.. I have been looking at the concept of a decentralized social network. Any comments?
Sincerely,
TPTB_need_war
AnonyMint
Shelby Moore III
I'm interested in reading your goals and motivations for taking on anonymity in general or anonymous digital cash specifically as your priority project?
Haven't you seen the new laws coming (eventually in all Five Eyes countries I've heard from reliable sources) that will ban end-to-end encryption?
To that end do you expect to support a viewkey or other way that users individually or a global backdoor, so that Zcash can be compliant with the lurch towards a 666 NWO which seems to be rapidly taking form now (and I assert will accelerate with the full global contagion sovereign debt collapse 2017 -2020)?
I am all for the ideology, but I am also pragmatic. We as society may have to fight with social networking and the political-economic revolution of a DIY economy, e.g. self-publishing, 3D printing, etc.. I have been looking at the concept of a decentralized social network. Any comments?
Sincerely,
TPTB_need_war
AnonyMint
Shelby Moore III
have the project sales zcash? where is I can buy it?
Welcome back TPTB... I am glad to see it was a temporary ban. You did not deserve that. 
I will try to read what you posted over. I only have so much time.. 40 hour work weeks plus school is tough. I wish you could make TL;DR versions of your posts.
I will try to read what you posted over. I only have so much time.. 40 hour work weeks plus school is tough. I wish you could make TL;DR versions of your posts.
Functionally the main difference between Monero and Zcash (esp. after RingCT is integrated) is that Zcash has a larger anonymity set at the level of individual transactions (all previous users) than Monero (some randomly chosen subset of previous users). In practice the difference is likely somewhat narrower, but difficult to fully characterize.
I agreePlease refute this then if you agree with smooth:
http://reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/42rvm3/truth_about_ethereum_is_being_banned_at/czefpyb
There appears to be an epic distinction that is not about anonymity set size (although I claim RingCT will fail in unprovable, uncharacterizable, unreliable ways in that comparison as well), but rather around meta-data.
Note Zcash will be commenting on this soon:
https://forum.z.cash/t/zcash-vs-bytecoin/136/2
https://forum.z.cash/t/fundamental-challenges/39/12?u=shelby3 (here I requested they point out any flaws in my logic if they have time)
I finally found some time to properly respond... busy week! 
I agree.
-------------------
I think you gave a mostly fair review, but I disagree (and/or disagree about how big of a deal) some of your claims are.
Disclaimer: I am an investor in Monero, and will also be buying some Zcash as soon as I am able.
Functionally the main difference between Monero and Zcash (esp. after RingCT is integrated) is that Zcash has a larger anonymity set at the level of individual transactions (all previous users) than Monero (some randomly chosen subset of previous users). In practice the difference is likely somewhat narrower, but difficult to fully characterize.
I agreeThe trade off for that difference in anonymity set is a wide gap in efficiency
I agree, but I am not sure it is a huge deal. Most cryptocurrencies hardly process any transactions per second. It is unclear exactly how less efficient Zerocash is compared to RingCT anyways, so we will not really be able to test how big of an effect this will have until both technologies are out in the wild. When using privacy-focused cryptocurrencies, I think that it is reasonable to accept longer transaction processing times and a larger amount of data per transaction for the sake of anonymity/privacy. I am not sure how worried privacy/anonymity focused users will be when it comes to efficiency and data usage. a wide gap in cryptographic complexity and maturity
I disagree here. Maybe if you are comparing Zerocash to Monero as it currently exists, but you are comparing Zerocash vs Monero with RingCT... hardly anyone truly understands the math behind Monero as it currently exists, much less the math behind RingCT. Although it may be true Zerocash is more complicated mathematically than RingCT, they both are quite hard to grasp if you don't dedicate a long time to understanding them and/or are a mathematician/genius. Furthermore, people use things they don't understand every day. Many people don't understand how a car works but drive, how a credit card works but use their cards for every transaction they make, how a plane works but fly, etc.probably a gap in implementation maturity
I disagree with this as well. RingCT will be just as new, as far as the implementation, as Zerocash because both have barely entered the library/alpha stage.the trusted setup,
After a little research, they seem to have figured out a good way to do this using multi party computation. Using MPC to generate the seed was talked about in the original version of Zerocoin, and it seems like they will use their own version of it for Zerocash. If you look into the (now proven false rumors) that Anoncoin was going to implement Zerocoin there is a lot of discussion about MPC. The whitepaper for the MPC math they will use to generate the seed is written by the authors of the Zerocash whitepaper. https://forum.z.cash/t/trusted-setup-phase/68/2 some functional limitations
I'm not sure what you meanand some stronger cryptographic assumptions (meaning more ways it can break, but not necessarily to a degree that is a huge concern).
I can agree with this.Anyway given that Monero already uses cryptography rather than mixing, the option to swap out the cryptography with zerocash exists, just as regular ring signatures are now being swapped out with RingCT. There are no current plans to do so for the above reasons, but if zerocash techniques become more mature and trusted (and perhaps efficient), and it becomes clear that's what users want, it could be done at some point.
tldr, these are both serious, credible cryptographic techniques to deliver private transactions, with different advantages and disadvantages.
tldr, these are both serious, credible cryptographic techniques to deliver private transactions, with different advantages and disadvantages.
I agree.
-------------------
I think you gave a mostly fair review, but I disagree (and/or disagree about how big of a deal) some of your claims are.
Disclaimer: I am an investor in Monero, and will also be buying some Zcash as soon as I am able.
This was written in June 2015, which probably motivated Shen-noether and Maxwell to work on combining CT with CN to create RingCT. And I was working on combining CCT with CN to create ZKT:
https://leastauthority.com/blog/zerocash_and_confidential_transactions.html
Any way, they all need to catch up with my latest logic on these matters:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/42rvm3/truth_about_ethereum_is_being_banned_at/czefpyb
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13713790
https://leastauthority.com/blog/zerocash_and_confidential_transactions.html
Any way, they all need to catch up with my latest logic on these matters:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/42rvm3/truth_about_ethereum_is_being_banned_at/czefpyb
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.13713790
Don't ask me to comment on Z.Cash v's Monero/Dash/et. al, ring signatures never interested me due to the 3rd party requirement, so I haven't researched them at all.
Ring signature is built into Monero protocol. So it does not rely on 3rd party involvement. That is my understanding.
This doesn't sound like such a big problem until the recipient's wallet gets seized by some authority and all his payers are revealed to them.
Hmmm. If the block chain is entirely amorphous then one would need to seize all recipient wallets to rebuild the structure of the block chain.
Damn the
Oh 
If the payer reveals their identity to the recipient voluntarily, then there is nothing you can do, but if he doesn't there should be no way for the recipient to follow the transaction back to him - this is one of the critical failures of the bitshares anonymity design; the payer is always revealed. This doesn't sound like such a big problem until the recipient's wallet gets seized by some authority and all his payers are revealed to them.
And everybody knows that when a payer reveals his or her identity to the recipient of the transaction, then it is still necessary to employ Tor to hide the IP address from the recipient because otherwise the recipient would know the identity of the payer.
That's a logical contradition. If the payer reveals thier identity, it is revealed, full stop.
Oh
And he continues his arrogant boasting! Can you believe that he is mr-know-it-all arrogantly insulting the recent points in this thread from Reddit talking to himself and everybody is ignoring him. What kind of sanity is that to have a debate with yourself after you've been kicked out of the party, lol.
You might want to check your facts. Many smart people (and ZeroCash team members) are watching what Monero is doing with RingCT right now:
.... Post from your actual account and then maybe we will consider what you have to say. Obvious sock puppet is obvious.
Even still, a re-tweet hardly constitutes as an endorsement. I am sure he stands behind Zerocash tech and was genuinely interested in RingCT for academic purposes. Pretty much all of the Zcash guys hail from academia.
This is why I never seriously supported Monero. I have claimed repeatedly over the past couple years that better technology would come along and render it useless. I recently invested a little into Monero, because its marketing on these forums is on point, but it is really just a safety net in case Zcash crashes and burns. As long as the initial parameters for Zcash can be generated in a transparent manner, then I have no doubts it will take over the "anon coin" market.
Isn´t that even a critical thing to achieve before we can even start to cheer for Zcash?
Not really. If they screw it up, someone will come in behind them and do it properly. The success of the cryptocurrency hinges on this one moment, do you really think they are going to "half ass" it?
Also I remember hearing about an anonymisation technique in which you have to trust the person who generated the first block to destroy the private key without writing it down, otherwise they have the ability to decrypt the anonymisation forever after. Is this using that technique ? If so why trust they don't have the backdoor key handy ?
Your memory is only partially right. There is a potential problem with trusted setup. They have said they play to do this in some public ceremony with multiple parties so that unless ALL of those parties collude, the minting process is safe.
If all parties colluded they could print a unlimited number of coins undetected, however the privacy of transactions would not be affected. Essentially it is an economic threat of a poorly designed setup allowing parties to collude to print unlimited coins. There is not a privacy threat from collusion.
I think that will be the biggest problem. Why should anyone trust a few people(from a "for profit" company) to not profit if they have the possibility to do it without anyone noticing it? Thats a no-brainer...
Who said there will only be a few people from the company at this ceremony? Maybe they are inviting mother teresa, ghandi, oprah, and pinnochio.
Also I remember hearing about an anonymisation technique in which you have to trust the person who generated the first block to destroy the private key without writing it down, otherwise they have the ability to decrypt the anonymisation forever after. Is this using that technique ? If so why trust they don't have the backdoor key handy ?
Your memory is only partially right. There is a potential problem with trusted setup. They have said they play to do this in some public ceremony with multiple parties so that unless ALL of those parties collude, the minting process is safe.
If all parties colluded they could print a unlimited number of coins undetected, however the privacy of transactions would not be affected. Essentially it is an economic threat of a poorly designed setup allowing parties to collude to print unlimited coins. There is not a privacy threat from collusion.
I think that will be the biggest problem. Why should anyone trust a few people(from a "for profit" company) to not profit if they have the possibility to do it without anyone noticing it? Thats a no-brainer...
Right what i said last page.
Also I remember hearing about an anonymisation technique in which you have to trust the person who generated the first block to destroy the private key without writing it down, otherwise they have the ability to decrypt the anonymisation forever after. Is this using that technique ? If so why trust they don't have the backdoor key handy ?
Your memory is only partially right. There is a potential problem with trusted setup. They have said they play to do this in some public ceremony with multiple parties so that unless ALL of those parties collude, the minting process is safe.
If all parties colluded they could print a unlimited number of coins undetected, however the privacy of transactions would not be affected. Essentially it is an economic threat of a poorly designed setup allowing parties to collude to print unlimited coins. There is not a privacy threat from collusion.
I think that will be the biggest problem. Why should anyone trust a few people(from a "for profit" company) to not profit if they have the possibility to do it without anyone noticing it? Thats a no-brainer...
It doesn't matter because some people have already voted to become the company's sales representatives and will be applying for positions as soon as they are available. It's too bad they are not doing an ICO. All we need is voodoo TA charts and dumperooo.
Anyways lets wait for the coin company to setup help desk and support lines first.
Anyways lets wait for the coin company to setup help desk and support lines first.
Also I remember hearing about an anonymisation technique in which you have to trust the person who generated the first block to destroy the private key without writing it down, otherwise they have the ability to decrypt the anonymisation forever after. Is this using that technique ? If so why trust they don't have the backdoor key handy ?
Your memory is only partially right. There is a potential problem with trusted setup. They have said they play to do this in some public ceremony with multiple parties so that unless ALL of those parties collude, the minting process is safe.
If all parties colluded they could print a unlimited number of coins undetected, however the privacy of transactions would not be affected. Essentially it is an economic threat of a poorly designed setup allowing parties to collude to print unlimited coins. There is not a privacy threat from collusion.
I have done zero bedtime reading about zero cash so forgive me if I'm writing crap, but anyway my impressions I have that I don't like are that it is owned by a company. In a sense it is centralised with a generous slice of minted coins directed to the aforementioned company.
Also I remember hearing about an anonymisation technique in which you have to trust the person who generated the first block to destroy the private key without writing it down, otherwise they have the ability to decrypt the anonymisation forever after. Is this using that technique ? If so why trust they don't have the backdoor key handy ?
Also I remember hearing about an anonymisation technique in which you have to trust the person who generated the first block to destroy the private key without writing it down, otherwise they have the ability to decrypt the anonymisation forever after. Is this using that technique ? If so why trust they don't have the backdoor key handy ?
Functionally the main difference between Monero and Zcash (esp. after RingCT is integrated) is that Zcash has a larger anonymity set at the level of individual transactions (all previous users) than Monero (some randomly chosen subset of previous users).
tldr, these are both serious, credible cryptographic techniques to deliver private transactions, with different advantages and disadvantages.
tldr, these are both serious, credible cryptographic techniques to deliver private transactions, with different advantages and disadvantages.
That insolent banned narcissist claimed the main difference is that the IP address and other markers of activity could be correlated to specific UTXO on the ring of potential payers and that this was not possible in Zcash. And he arrogantly claimed that this was some fundamental distinction. Thanks for the clarifying slogan.
He claims that you don't need to use Tor/I2P to hide your IP if you are using zerocash because the transactions are so opaque even revealing your IP does not matter. I'm sure there is a narrow way of looking at it that makes that the case, but overall, I don't agree and the Zcash developers don't agree (they are integrating Tor).
Monero works with a Tor proxy and will have I2P integrated. Dash (and Bitcoin) works with Tor.
Yeah! Everybody knows Tor is precisely 98% reliable same as the internet and precisely 98% anonymous which is much better than the internet. That TPTB tried to pull the wool over our eyes.
And everybody knows that when a payer reveals his or her identity to the recipient of the transaction, then it is still necessary to employ Tor to hide the IP address from the recipient because otherwise the recipient would know the identity of the payer.
Your logic is clearly superior to AnnoyingMint's drivel.
As always its simply a case of "use whats right for the job", there's tradeoffs with everything.
If you want as close to real anonymity as you can get, then use Zero, Monero and connect over TOR/I2P (I too don't agree with TPTB's statements on the IP argument). If you want some other feature that these can't provide due to technical limitations, then settle for a psuedo-anon platform and again, connect over TOR/I2P.
If you don't care, well, use whatever you fancy
Jump to: