Topic: Transactions Withholding Attack - page 6. (Read 27579 times)

Prior art?

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/the-best-way-to-take-control-of-bitcoin-rally-other-greedy-selfish-miners/

You claim that you've laid this attack out months ago.  Perhaps you have.  It's still not the first of this type of attack that I've seen claimed, but I have to admit that this is the first of it's type to earn it's own whitepaper.

Of course, the authors of this same whitepaper also offer a simple solution to this kind of attack as well, that simply involves a small protocol change in how mining clients decide upon the block version that they build upon.  I've yet to read this whitepaper myself, so I'm not yet ready to comment on their take on the attack.

I'm amused.

Can you envision any information that might force you to reconsider your position?  Or are you truely this certain that you understand this topic?

Just remember you blew your credibility to smithereens with your ignorance of proof-of-work math upthread.

And every time you try to reply with subjective political grandstanding, I am going to repeat the same statement until you shut up.

The very fact that you regard this whole debacle as a form of a Tragedy of the Commons failure is evidence enough that only you regard yourself as a member of the "technologically capable".  In fact, most people have resorted to mocking you simply because trying to reason with you is futile, and none of us are here for your benefit.

Seriously capable technical people don't view technical debates as public juries.

They view them as founded in facts and objective consensus, because rational people know when they are wrong (or at least rationality is recognition of lack of sufficient expertise).

Whereas, arrogant Dunning-Kruger technology neophytes who don't understand what they are talking about and motivated by what they naively perceive to be political "rewards", can filibuster forever and prefer a subjective political contest by obfuscating the information content with pages upon pages of 60 Hz noise. Political contests are won by whom every can make the most useless noise, because the other dolts in the public jury commit the erroneous conclusion the entire thread is noise.

That is precisely a form of Tragedy of the Commons failure.

This is one of the synergistic reasons why academics communicate using cryptic vocabulary and symbols, so the dolts are unable to participate.

P.S. It is intentional that the dolts will perceive this post as a victory for them, and the technologically capable will realize who won the debate.

...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!

Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

Isn't it ironic when a Dunning-Kruger dolt thinks he is arguing against me, yet the logic implied by what he wrote is supporting my point. He of course doesn't realize this, thus it is wisest not to point it out to him. Then hopefully he shuts up thinking he won the argument.  

I regret the argumentation by filibuster here, i.e. very few new points were made after the first few pages of this thread. My huge mistake not to make this a self-moderated thread.

At the time I started this thread, I was thinking openness was the most important. Thanks to those who have taught me why open-source never works without a benevolent dictator such as Linus Torvalds or Guido van Rossum.

You might as well put me on ignore also, because I'm not the one displaying ignorance while feigning understanding.

anth0ny has been placed on ignore.

MoonShadow, you will need to find a more convincing way to weasel out of your display of ignorance of the proof-of-work algorithm.

Perhaps you misunderstood what they were talking about.  Have you ever considered the possibility that you're wrong?

I certainly could not make this case for Bitcoin, because the marketing demographic is based significantly on the asymptotic limit of 21M coins.

And the only fix I currently see is to not diminish coin rewards asymptotically towards 0.

But crypto-currencies are a broader topic than Bitcoin. And an altcoin could offer the proposed fix, c.f. my upthread reply to MoonShadow where I claim that an inflatacoin with no other compelling improvements over Bitcoin would not succeed in the market place.

Also inflatacoin is entirely the wrong connotation, since non-excessive coin rewards have no algebraic correlation to inflation, even Mises admitted that. Even at the current 12.5% per annum (monotonically decreasing) debasement of Bitcoin, the coin is deflationary (ahem, well not the past couple of days with the fall in price).

You are displaying your ignorance of the proof-of-work technology.

This is wonderful. You are destroying your reputation all by yourself.

You better go research, because what I wrote (above in bold text) is 100% correct.

(variance will mean it is not a level percentage but will vary greater and lower, but that is irrelevant)

You think it out, or go ask JoelKatz or any knowledgeable Bitcoin developer.

While the percentage of total hashrate controls the percentage of blocks that said cartel can control, they can't control the others in any fashion.  Control of blocks is not akin to control of transaction processing, nor is it akin to delaying of transaction processing.  I can accept that, under some rather extreme conditions, such a cartel could force up the market rate for transaction fees, and perhaps backlog transactions with insufficient fees for a period of time if blocks are regularly full; however this is a far cry from the assumption that such a cartel can delay those transactions to any noticable degree.  (It might be measureable, but not likely noticable to the average bicoin consumer/merchant)  That all changes at the 50% mark, ut getting there is no small task.  As I write this, the network Petaflops rate is roghly 1000 petaflops higher than when I mentioned it yesterday. It took three years to build the 33 petaflop supercomputer that holds the top spot worldwide.

I want to destroy my reputation.

Because those can't discern truth from filibuster don't deserve the extravagant fruits I will bestow on them.

Matthew13:10 The disciples came to him (Jesus) and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
    though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

John 15:19

19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Proverbs 12:1

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, But he who hates reproof is stupid.

Proverbs 17:10

A rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding Than a hundred blows into a fool.

Deuteronomy

"The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me.

Ezekiel 33:7-12

“So you, son of man, I have made a watchman for the house of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. If I say to the wicked, O wicked one, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked person shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. But if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, that person shall die in his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.

Timothy 6

False Teachers and the Love of Money

These are the things you are to teach and insist on. 3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4 they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5 and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Matthew 10

12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

“‘a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36     a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. 41 Whoever welcomes a prophet as a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and whoever welcomes a righteous person as a righteous person will receive a righteous person’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward.”

Matthew 25:14-30

The Parable of the Bags of Gold

14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’

21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’

23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Mark 10:17-31

The Rich Man

17 As Jesus was starting out on his way to Jerusalem, a man came running up to him, knelt down, and asked, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked. “Only God is truly good. 19 But to answer your question, you know the commandments: ‘You must not murder. You must not commit adultery. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. You must not cheat anyone. Honor your father and mother.’[a]”

20 “Teacher,” the man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.”

21 Looking at the man, Jesus felt genuine love for him. “There is still one thing you haven’t done,” he told him. “Go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 At this the man’s face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.

23 Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God!” 24 This amazed them. But Jesus said again, “Dear children, it is very hard to enter the Kingdom of God. 25 In fact, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!”

26 The disciples were astounded. “Then who in the world can be saved?” they asked.

27 Jesus looked at them intently and said, “Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God.”

28 Then Peter began to speak up. “We’ve given up everything to follow you,” he said.

29 “Yes,” Jesus replied, “and I assure you that everyone who has given up house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or property, for my sake and for the Good News, 30 will receive now in return a hundred times as many houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and property—along with persecution. And in the world to come that person will have eternal life. 31 But many who are the greatest now will be least important then, and those who seem least important now will be the greatest then.[c]”

Proverbs 23:5

5 Cast but a glance at riches, and they are gone,
    for they will surely sprout wings
    and fly off to the sky like an eagle.

Proverbs 13:11

Dishonest money dwindles away,
    but whoever gathers money little by little makes it grow.

2 Timothy 3

3 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

A Final Charge to Timothy

10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance,

A miner will do what he think is best for him. In most cases, he has coins and won't join the cartel. Neither as miner nor as customer since it will destroy his economy. The zero fees won't matter the more coins he already has.

Your ignorance of Satoshi's white paper and Bitcoin 101 stands out like a blackeye.

The percentage of the hashrate controls the percentage of blocks won, which therefor controls the percentage blocks that the cartel can exclude non-cartel transactions.

Now shutup mofo.

Reputation? You just blew yours to smithereens.

You think that is so?  You must not be much of a libertarian.  Reputation matters a great deal here, and I have a very good reputation.  A great many members here will take my opinion of you on faith, whether or not I come across as a dick or not.

Yes, much hand waving.  Again, just because you can say it, does not make it so.  There is zero evidence that a cartel of any size less than 51% of the total network can delay fee paying transactions issued by others to any noticible extent.  With 51% of total hashrate, such a cartel could do so, but there are other consequences to that cartel for doing so, and even then it requires that the cartel keep it up.  If they ever stop, those delayed transactions complete nearly immediately.  It's apparent to many of us that you still don't really grok how the p2p protocol actually does what it does, so you have made up a theoretical flaw based upon what you believe happens.

Please spread that opinion as much as you want to. That helps me.

It wasn't an argument, it was my personal opinion.