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Topic: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors. - page 21. (Read 92656 times)

vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
For other examples of logical fallacy look (if you can still find them quoted - as most originals were deleted) at usagi's various statements over the past months that go along the lines of "I hold/control a majority of shares so I can do what I want" - making the error of believing that one factor in determining ability to act (number of shares in favour) totally negates all others (e.g. fiduciary duty, avoiding conflict of interest etc).

So, you certainly have the contract which specifies Usagi's 'fiduciary duty' to avoid 'conflict of interest' with the best of his 'ability'.

Where is?
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
Usagi already said "CPA has ceased to exist"

Why are you arguing about semantics ?

That is not the definition of bankrupt:

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/bankrupt?q=bankrupt

Quote
Definition of bankrupt
adjective
1 (of a person or organization) declared in law as unable to pay their debts

2 completely lacking in a particular good quality

noun
a person judged by a court to be insolvent, whose property is taken and disposed of for the benefit of their creditors.

Did Usagi declared insolvency? There are evidence which indicates that he is not able to pay back the CPA debt?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Apparently usagi's now selling off FPGAs bought using BMF funds on behalf of BMF shareholders and using the proceeds to repay the "liquidity loans" he took out for CPA, presumably because he offered to make himself personally liable for those loans but reckons he can tell the BMF shareholders to go screw themselves:

First point.
1. Due to the closing of GLBSE, CPA has ceased to exist. All of our assets were on the GLBSE so we have no money and no operations and no income from operations.
2. Before GLBSE closed, BMF ordered a few FPGA and ASIC singles.
3. Both I myself, and CPA, owned 800 and change shares of BMF.
4. Therefore I have valid, personal claim on these singles, as does CPA.
5. Therefore this FPGA will be sold to pay off a loanholder (jborkl).
STATUS: I'm boxing and shipping it today. I will update this post with links to the receipt and tracking number later.


Second point.
1. I promised to be personally responsible for the CPA liquidity loans.

That's gotta be fraud, surely?

re-quoted for posterity.

If you really want a logical fallacy Augusto (as opposed to just to keep hanging off usagi's dick) then look at what usagi said there in the quote.

Look at point 3.
Then look at point 4 - which begins "therefore" - indicating a (supposed logical connection).

And there's a logical fallacy.

IF point 4 had said "Therefore I and CPA together have a valid claim on a percentage of those singles equivalent to the percentage that 800 is of outstanding shares" then it would have been better (not quite right - but getting there).  Note that point 5 (and other posts from usagi - if it hasn't deleted them yet) make plain that it wasn't just a typo - but a stated intent to take the entire cash raised from the sale (and then use it on some mix of personal/CPA debt - which usagi appears not to ever appreciate are seperate).

For other examples of logical fallacy look (if you can still find them quoted - as most originals were deleted) at usagi's various statements over the past months that go along the lines of "I hold/control a majority of shares so I can do what I want" - making the error of believing that one factor in determining ability to act (number of shares in favour) totally negates all others (e.g. fiduciary duty, avoiding conflict of interest etc).
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
I'm not trying to make an argument.

Are you requesting a scammer tag because Usagi is making preferential payment for his bankrupt company? 
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
In cryptography we trust
I am not interested in logical fallacies.

You should be if you are trying to make an argument.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
In cryptography we trust
Still, you did not presented any evidence as I have required.

The evidence you require (for what exactly?) has been presented many times.

Re-read the last posts and let me know which points are still unclear to you.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
He said he was boxing up assets and paying out one creditor over another. Are you saying usagi was making a false statement.

I am asking for evidence which proves that Usagi enterprise is bankrupt.

Usagi already said "CPA has ceased to exist"

Why are you arguing about semantics ?
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
He said he was boxing up assets and paying out one creditor over another. Are you saying usagi was making a false statement.

I am asking for evidence which proves that Usagi enterprise is bankrupt.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
Apparently usagi's now selling off FPGAs bought using BMF funds on behalf of BMF shareholders and using the proceeds to repay the "liquidity loans" he took out for CPA, presumably because he offered to make himself personally liable for those loans but reckons he can tell the BMF shareholders to go screw themselves:

First point.
1. Due to the closing of GLBSE, CPA has ceased to exist. All of our assets were on the GLBSE so we have no money and no operations and no income from operations.
2. Before GLBSE closed, BMF ordered a few FPGA and ASIC singles.
3. Both I myself, and CPA, owned 800 and change shares of BMF.
4. Therefore I have valid, personal claim on these singles, as does CPA.
5. Therefore this FPGA will be sold to pay off a loanholder (jborkl).
STATUS: I'm boxing and shipping it today. I will update this post with links to the receipt and tracking number later.


Second point.
1. I promised to be personally responsible for the CPA liquidity loans.

That's gotta be fraud, surely?

re-quoted for posterity.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
Observation: 'Usagi is unable to provide proper accounting.'

Again: learn to read. I didn't say usagi is unable to provide proper accounting. I said "... if usagi doesn't provide proper accounting".


Learn to read. I didn't say that it proves, but that it is reasonable to assume if usagi doesn't provide proper accounting.

The rest of your argument is unclear. Feel free to explain what your point is.


Nice strawman you made there though.

Exactly, augustocroppo, you may also want to read some more about strawman and other logical fallacies while your at it.

Still, you did not presented any evidence as I have required. I am not interested in logical fallacies.

Whatever pretension you have, your assumption does not prove that Usagi is defrauding his investors.

Usagi stated that intent himself. It wasnt like some accused him of doing it .

He said he was boxing up assets and paying out one creditor over another. Are you saying usagi was making a false statement.
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
Observation: 'Usagi is unable to provide proper accounting.'

Again: learn to read. I didn't say usagi is unable to provide proper accounting. I said "... if usagi doesn't provide proper accounting".


Learn to read. I didn't say that it proves, but that it is reasonable to assume if usagi doesn't provide proper accounting.

The rest of your argument is unclear. Feel free to explain what your point is.


Nice strawman you made there though.

Exactly, augustocroppo, you may also want to read some more about strawman and other logical fallacies while your at it.

Still, you did not presented any evidence as I have required. I am not interested in logical fallacies.

Whatever pretension you have, your assumption does not prove that Usagi is defrauding his investors.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
if the crux of this argument  is that preferential payment in case of a bankrupt company is a fraudulent crime.

Then someone should be working on a scammer tag for bitfloor, correct?

Pretty much.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
In cryptography we trust
The observation here isn't that usagi didn't provide proper accounting.  The observation is that usagi stated it was going to preferentially give itself BTC and other people shares.  Nice strawman you made there though.

Wrong.

I am verifying if deeplink's observation is evidence to support kjj's original proposition. Therefore my argument remains.

By the way, nice strawman you made there though.

The observation is that usagi stated it was going to preferentially pay out. Preferential payment in case of a bankrupt company is a fraudulent crime. Where is the argument?
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
The observation here isn't that usagi didn't provide proper accounting.  The observation is that usagi stated it was going to preferentially give itself BTC and other people shares.  Nice strawman you made there though.

Wrong.

I am verifying if deeplink's observation is evidence to support kjj's original proposition. Therefore my argument remains.

By the way, nice strawman you made there though.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
In cryptography we trust
Nice strawman you made there though.

Exactly, augustocroppo, you may also want to read some more about strawman and other logical fallacies while your at it.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
In cryptography we trust
Observation: 'Usagi is unable to provide proper accounting.'

Again: learn to read. I didn't say usagi is unable to provide proper accounting. I said "... if usagi doesn't provide proper accounting".


Learn to read. I didn't say that it proves, but that it is reasonable to assume if usagi doesn't provide proper accounting.

The rest of your argument is unclear. Feel free to explain what your point is.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
The evidence is in the verifiable fact that preferential payment in case of a bankrupt company is a fraudulent crime.

A observation which is compatible with other plausible state of affair is not evidence for a proposition.

Observation: 'Usagi is unable to provide proper accounting.'

Plausible state of affair: 'Preferential payment in case of a bankrupt company is a fraudulent crime.'

Proposition: 'What you said you were doing was the textbook definition of a crime, namely fraud. It is pretty much the definition, actually.  In the real world it is a crime as described above.'

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1236780

http://human-brain.org/evidence.html

Quote
What is "evidence"

An observation of compatible state of affair

When should an observation be regarded as evidence for a proposition?

(...)

Even though the logic is obvious, there is a strong tendency to ignore the second condition above. It is quite common for people to regard as evidence for some proposition an observation which is compatible with many other plausible states of affairs. In some cases, they justify it by considering only restricted set of the other plausible states of affairs (I call this the "Misanalyzing the 'Null Hypothesis'" error in Reasoning errors). In other cases, they don't bother to justify it at all, and seem to do it simply because they like the proposition, and hence accept automatically the observation as evidence (implicitly doing the "conclusion-validation" error, Reasoning errors).

Learn to read. I didn't say that it proves, but that it is reasonable to assume if usagi doesn't provide proper accounting.

The observation here isn't that usagi didn't provide proper accounting.  The observation is that usagi stated it was going to preferentially give itself BTC and other people shares.  Nice strawman you made there though.
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
The evidence is in the verifiable fact that preferential payment in case of a bankrupt company is a fraudulent crime.

A observation which is compatible with other plausible state of affair is not evidence for a proposition.

Observation: 'Usagi is unable to provide proper accounting.'

Plausible state of affair: 'Preferential payment in case of a bankrupt company is a fraudulent crime.'

Proposition: 'What you said you were doing was the textbook definition of a crime, namely fraud. It is pretty much the definition, actually.  In the real world it is a crime as described above.'

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1236780

http://human-brain.org/evidence.html

Quote
What is "evidence"

An observation of compatible state of affair

When should an observation be regarded as evidence for a proposition?

(...)

Even though the logic is obvious, there is a strong tendency to ignore the second condition above. It is quite common for people to regard as evidence for some proposition an observation which is compatible with many other plausible states of affairs. In some cases, they justify it by considering only restricted set of the other plausible states of affairs (I call this the "Misanalyzing the 'Null Hypothesis'" error in Reasoning errors). In other cases, they don't bother to justify it at all, and seem to do it simply because they like the proposition, and hence accept automatically the observation as evidence (implicitly doing the "conclusion-validation" error, Reasoning errors).

Learn to read. I didn't say that it proves, but that it is reasonable to assume if usagi doesn't provide proper accounting.
BCB
vip
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1002
BCJ
if the crux of this argument  is that preferential payment in case of a bankrupt company is a fraudulent crime.

Then someone should be working on a scammer tag for bitfloor, correct?
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
Given those conditions, you have no idea how much each share of debt is worth, and you have no idea how much each equity share is worth.  Paying one creditor or shareholder (or any subset of them) at an assumed valuation is preferential.  It is pretty much the definition, actually.  In the real world it is a crime as described above.

Please, provide evidence to prove that in 'the real world it is a crime as described above'.

The evidence will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but try these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_preference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undervalue_transaction (tangential to this matter)
http://www.google.com/search?q=preferential+payments
http://www.google.com/search?q=liquidation
http://www.google.com/search?q=trustee+fraud

And to pick one state at random, http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/BC/3

If someone says that they repeatedly stabbed someone else with a knife until they stopped moving and breathing, it isn't an accusation to point out that their own description of their actions is the description of a crime.  I have no knowledge of his real actions, I'm just going by what he has said he has done / is doing / will be doing.



Quote
An unfair preference (or "voidable preference") is a legal term arising in bankruptcy law where a person or company transfers assets or pays a debt to a creditor shortly before going into bankruptcy, that payment or transfer can be set aside on the application of the liquidator or trustee in bankruptcy as an unfair preference or simply a preference

Usagi did not declared bankruptcy, so your evidence is worthless to support kjj's assertion.

The exact same procedures are used for the dissolution of any legal entity.  A bankruptcy is just one form of the general closure process, other examples exist, including trusts and estates.  The same concepts apply in general, but there are a few exceptions in different branches.  Common to all is that someone is managing, liquidating, and distributing assets that do not belong to them * , and that they have a fiduciary duty to treat all claimants equitably.  The notion of equity shifts a bit in different types of cases too, for example, you can put somewhat arbitrary rules in your will, and the trustee is expected to follow them, and only genuine residue after the will is fully executed is requires an equitable distribution.

If he personally declared bankruptcy, he would not be the trustee of his own liquidation, one would be appointed by a judge/magistrate, and I bet if that happened, the poor guy would have to take up drinking after sorting out this mess.  I'm still going on the assumption that there is no official record of his ventures as registered legal entities, which strongly suggests that his "contracts" created an assumed trust, and that said trust is now under liquidation.

Since an assumed trust exists because of the contract that spawned it, such a contract can specify peculiar rules for liquidation, and those rules should be followed (unless someone files for an injunction, or unless the rules are contrary to some other law).  In all other cases, including, as far as I can tell, this case, the default rules should be followed, and if a court got involved (unlikely here, but still) they would appoint someone to do it pretty much like I described.


* The person managing the assets is generally known generally as a trustee, but they also called a receiver in certain types of bankruptcy, etc.  The assets themselves are still owned by the corporation, if properly incorporated, by the estate, or by "the trust" (which is the pseudo-entity that is assumed to exist whenever a contract requires such a thing) until liquidated/distributed.  Note that the trustee may, in some cases, also be a claimant.  For example, a child of the deceased in estate matters, or the managing partner in a partnership, or a shareholder/manager in a small company or corporation.  Such people need to be very careful, because the burden of proof is surprisingly low in civil matters.  For that reason, generally, no one will come after you with criminal charges unless you are a huge dick, but many breaches of fiduciary duty also meet the definitions of criminal fraud.
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