Topic: [VIDEO]The Empirical Proof of Bitcoin's Real Value Being Zero (Read 791 times)

No actual content exists in your response. You behave like a child. You simply copy/paste my sentences and edit them to fit your narrative.
And of course you have completely ignored my question that exposes this narrative of yours. Here's the question:

Suppose that you've purchased all the bitcoins in the world. How can you utilize them? You've said that they can be both utilized and transferred. You've bought them all and you don't want to transfer them. So how can you utilize them for want satisfying?

You presented nothing but ad hominems and one wrong statement that value of Bitcon comes from the act of buying something with Bitcon. Unfortunately buying something with X has nothing to do with X's value. Value is property of a thing, while buying something is a human behavior. For e.g. you can trade your car for a blank sheet of paper, but this won't make this paper valuable. This is because the utilization capacity (real value) of this paper is pretty low and don't magically change due to transaction. Such trade would only prove that your behavior was irrational and foolish because you traded a thing with high utilization capacity for a thing with nearly zero utilization capacity.

Incorrect.

In your mistaken opinion, records whose issuers pay nothing to their holders are worthless.

Empirically, some records are worthless (such as your example of a Bond), and some are not worthless (such as a record in the Bitcoin Blockchain which provides control over value)


Try reading what he said again.  He didn't say that it was valuable because it couldn't be sent.  He said that it was valuable because you can't gain value by trading it for something valuable.  If you trade your poop for something valuable (such as $1), and you lose value, then clearly your poop had value (more than $1 worth of value).  If you trade your poop for something valuable (such as $1) and you gain value, then clearly your poop had less value than the thing you traded for ($1).


Greater Fool Theory is a theory that ALL items of value (not just Bitcoin) get their value from the expectation of the buyer that they will be able to sell the item to someone else later at a higher price.

If you are a believer in Greater Fool Theory, then you already believe that the value of gold comes NOT from any intrinsic value of its utilization, but from the fact that buyers believe they can find a "greater fool" to buy it from them for a higher price.  You already believe this of ALL items of value (that the value comes not from anything intrinsic or inherent in the item, but rather from the belief that it can later be sold for more than was spent to buy it).


You are sharing an opinion that is based on false beliefs.


Ok.


I thought we already reached an agreement that Bitcoin does NOT fit your definition of Financial Instrument.  I thought we were making progress.  Now here you are reverting back to false statements.  It's almost like you are so fixated on distributing nonsense that you are unwilling to learn to remember what you've said in the past.


No, I can't eat, drink, put on my finger, or edit text with it.  However, I can't do any of those things with a car or a house or a piece of land either.  There are more ways to utilize something than your short list.


Bitcoin doesn't need to pay anything.  It isn't a Financial Instrument.  We've already established this.  Furthermore, it is valuable. It contains value in its existence because it can be used to satisfy wants.  Maybe not your wants, but certainly the wants of others.  Perhaps try opening your mind to the idea that there are people that want different things than you want.


Again false beliefs.

Bitcoin IS a good that has value through utilization.


Because it is NOT a classical Financial Instrument.


It is not.


Or perhaps, you missed out on the opportunity earlier to see Bitcoin for what it actually is.  You are now bitter that those that saw the potential have benefited from that foresight, and you are rationalizing your lack of foresight by simply declaring bitcoin worthless.


You are just repeating the mantra "Bitcoin is worthless."  That is all.


It is you that is ignoring the concept of value and attempting to make bitcoin worthless by declaration.


It does if it is something that someone wants and something that is difficult to acquire.


False.  Value is assigned by humans based on their current wants and needs. A thing has no value inherent to it until a human wants or needs it.


No.  It magically emerges when one or more humans decide that they want or need it.  A random painting by a random two year old child, has great value to the parents of that child, and nearly 0 value to most of society.  A painting proved beyond doubt to have been created by Leonardo Davinci, has great value only because society desires it.  Both are paintings, and yet value to society has magically emerged on one and not the other.


And purchasing Bitcoin, which can be utilized like a good, for thousands of dollars is perhaps the definition of acting wise and prudent.

It's value is based on what bitcoin is:
It' is virtual, like your money in your plastic card.
It's useful - You can transfer it to everyone and have no restrictions like when creating a bank account for example, you need almost nothing to own bitcoin, just piece of paper is enough.
PoW - You have to actually do some work in order to create one, investing electricity and CPU power. It's not coming from the tin air.
It's unique - you can't fake it, you can't manipulate it, you can't cheat.  
It gives you anonymity - no one is messing with what is yours.
It gives you possibilities - you can pay with in a shop, order stuff online, trade with it.

 

after this failure from your created thread last year here

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/videoan-indisputable-proof-that-bitcoin-is-fake-money-and-5183408

now youa re back with another BS?did you ever find even one that supports your stories?if not then stop it mate because youa re only fooling your self here.

---

the truth?how many viewers have you earned from that Video?don't tell me you gathered "ZERO"?sorry to hear that if does.

remember that you are in Bitcointalk.org and how would you expect people here to react on this BS?

1. You're not stating facts, you're making a bad argument. You're just like a Jordan Peterson, you make constant straw man arguments, you then valiantly slay these straw men, and then declare that you've proven a wider point. Bitcoin empirically has value, you can buy things with it. If you were honest you'd admit you can't disprove that.

I even debunked your dumb little, non-empirical by definition theory.

2. You don't understand how bitcoin works. You never send a .mp3 or whatever file containing the bitcoins. You run a little script that shifts ownership of the coins to someone else. You hold the keys, and while the keys themselves could be copied that would only mean that a third party would use the keys to steal the bitcoin and then hold it secure with their own private key.

3. Your post self contradicts this.



Finally I can't hold your hand here. I don't think this is a high quality topic so from here on out, I let this die.

I tried to get you out towards the shores of sanity, but you choose to wallow into the mud of stupidity, once the night comes you'll die of hypothermia. No-coiner. May your fiat's value forever decrease and may you never have enough insight to even realize it.

The value of things is not production value, the value of things is determined by usefulness. This is subjective and changes from person to person, place to place, and even time and individual situation.

The market price is a collective result of these interests. It is the REAL price.

Imagine you are in the desert without water for days, buy carry a gold nugget, you find a caravan and they happen to have water. You are willing to part with the nugget for the water, even if to them picking up the water and carrying it across the desert didn't cost much (and they have plenty of it).

Or, trying to sell ice to people in the north pole. Extreme and unlikely but you get the point. All the value of things a varying degrees of this.

You could also look at online games, their items and scarcity. Everything is artificial, lines of code, and yet to the people playing some are willing to give real cash for "silly" things like magic swords or such. Perhaps to you the (real) money is more valuable and for the buyer the rare item is more valuable. Once again, production didn't matter.

Of course abundant things tend to be valued less than scarce things, hence bitcoins (finite) will always cost more than dogecoins (infinite). The rule of supply and demand always applies, in addition to subjective value.

1. I am not making an argument. I am stating facts. The fact is that if a particular financial record such as bond, pays nothing it is valueless. Bitcoin is also a financial record. It is not a good that you can eat, drink, put on your finger or edit text with it. It is simply a database record. A record that pays nothing, just like a bond of a bankrupt issuer. So empirically, Bitcoin is not a good to have value through utilization or consumption. Bitcoin pays nothing to have value as a classical financial instrument. Bitcoin is simply a worthless record that you transfer from one virtual address to another. You bitcoiners have been purchasing this worthless record for thousands of dollars and now you try to rationalize your irrational behaviour by simply declaring bitcoin valuable. You are just repeating the mantra "Bitcoin has value". That's all. You deny the concept of value and try to give value to bitcoin by declaration.

2. E-mail that contains a single letter and mp3 file containing "bip" sound, can be sent electronically as well. So? This doesn't give them value. Value is something that is inherent to a thing itself. It doesn't magically emerge when you transfer that thing from one location to another.

3. I am not calling you fools. I am saying that you act like fools. Being a fool and acting like one are two different things. Under extreme emotional pressure(greed) or due to ignorance, even intelligent people can act very foolish. Purchasing a record, that pays nothing and that can't be consumed or utilized like a good, for thousands of dollars is the definition of acting foolish.

1. Your argument is that bitcoin doesn't have value. You specified empirically. Your use of the term is incorrect. Anything else is irrelevant. If you can buy anything for bitcoin, including other currencies it empirically has value.

So you're classifying bitcoin as this thing "a record whose issuers pay nothing to their holders" and declare it "worthless". Bitcoin is not simply a record. It's a record that can't be falsified without tremendous, almost impossible effort on the part of a single attacker.

While your argument is irrelevant let me debunk it. There is no direct issuer of bitcoin except for all the people who use the network rules. So everyone who runs or has run a full node is an issuer. We agree to the rules therefore we issue the bitcoins awarded to the miners. We get paid in the form of either a secure network or bitcoins for the miners.


Dollars don't have value by themselves either. Dollars are created arbitrarily by the banks. If everyone who owns dollars is a "holder" than when the bank creates more dollars through a loan, most of the "holders" actually lose value in terms of inflation. Therefore even by your argument fiat is worse, not better than bitcoin.



2. This is not contradicting my argument at all. Dollars and Bitcoin can be sent electronically. If I sent you $1 in the mail or through paypal. Would you be able to send me BTC100,000? No. That is because bitcoin empirically has a non zero value.

Me not being able to send your poop to you is a weird argument. I don't see how it's relevant. Are you trying to get me to sell your own poop back to you? Does it have to be your own shit? In this case I can send you a link to the video you made on YouTube. I'll expect a payment of $100 or BTC0.01 Since your video is poop and you put it out in the world I think it qualifies.

3. Here we go again calling us fools but not providing an argument for it. I can guarantee you that a lot of bitcoin holders believe in the project for reasons other than financial gain.

Bitcoin could crash to a fraction of a cent and I'd still believe in the project. Bitcoin can't be frozen by the banks, can't be printed by the governments and can't be blocked by political interests.

I'm here to create a world that I won't to live in. Not to sell bitcoin to a greater fool.

1. Empirically, records whose issuers pay nothing to their holders are worthless. If a bond issuer goes bankrupt, this bond is a record that pays nothing and as such it's worthless. Bitcon is a record that pays nothing and that's why it is worthless as well.
2. You're not able to sent my poop to me. Does that mean my poop is valuable?
3. There's one theory called "The greater fool theory". This theory doesn't implying people are fools but that they act like fools. Similarly, I am implying that you act foolish and not that you are fools. Acting foolish and being a fool are two entirely different things.

You're just repeating your empty assertions of Bitcon having value and ignoring reality in the process. I will now present you this reality with one simple question. Suppose that you've purchased all the bitcoins in the world. How can you utilize them? You've said that they can be both utilized and transferred. You've bought them all and you don't want to transfer them. So how can you utilize them for want satisfying?

You declare my whole post ignorance while ignoring all my points.

1. You use the term empirically incorrectly.

Empirically means through experience and not by theory, through experience bitcoin has value

2. If BTC's Value was 0 you could send me BTC100,000 for $1 and you'd make a buck, but you can't, because the value of bitcoin is empirically not zero.

3. Implying that we're greedy fools on our turf (Bitcointalk)  is kind of hilarious but you have no argument. Your video is such garbage that I had to tune out within seconds.
I'm the kind of guy to watch 6 hour videos of badly produced audio and loops. And even I can't watch your shit video.

All of this is based on belief systems.

here are a few

"Nothing has value to anyone. The reason is  Basically we will all be dead and who really gives a fuck about anything at all."


Now drifting away from that belief system is this belief system.

"BTC has value."

Is there any difference no none both are things or ideas people can believe or not believe.

Right now as I type there are enough people that believe BTC has a value over 9000 USD to keep it above 9000 usd.

You are saying that it is worthless with no value at all.

Neither group is correct. It is just what they believe in.

At the moment you are believing an untruth since no one will give you btc for free.  they will want 9000 + usd.

One day  when all the people in the world are dead  you may be correct in your belief.

If it was 2007  or earlier  you were correct.  Most of us choose to believe btc was so motherfucking worthless it did not even exist.

Right now in 2020  you are are the wrong side of this particular belief .

I would wish you luck for believing in zero value, but frankly I prefer to believe it is up up and away for my coin of choice.  25,000 + usd by 2021

Yes, I do.  As do many other people.


Bitcoin can also be utalized AND transferred.


This is false.


And yet one can, and does.


And yet, it is not.


Not true.  However, fortunately for this discussion, is transferring it to someone else is NOT the only thing one can do with Bitcoin.


Glad to hear you agree.  Since you agree that it is not a Financial Instrument (by your definition), can we please stop talking about "issuers making payments"?


Bitcoin is more than "just a record".  Regardless, at least we are finally in agreement that your rules for Financial Instruments don't apply to Bitcoin.


Nobody would pay $1500 per ounce for gold if its manufacturing and product uses were the only thing it was utilized for.  It is utilized to store and transfer value. This is what makes it as valuable as it is.


And yet, Bitcoin has value though there is nobody to declare its value. So, clearly that's just nonsense.

Bitcoin is valuable due to the valuable ways in which it can be utilized.

The monotonous computer generated voice in that video was extremely annoying.

Modern cars lose 14+% of their value every year though too so they're not great for transferrability and recouporation.

Cash can't exactly be utilised? Interest is a by-product of inflation and how well an economy is doing. If you sit with cash in your house, it's losing you money.


Well not really. Gold is a bit like Bitcoin now.
Most medical, electrical and chemical equipment uses platinum instead of gold since it's cheaper (even though gold is more inflated).

There are fairly worthless financial instruments people like to gamble with all the time and bitcoin may or may not be one of them. It's certainly getting a lot of hype but I don't think it's going to be the main coin in the future for payment systems - I'm not sure if a true cometitor ahs yet been found yet though either. Money was initally created to be a store of value, a promise that you'll get something for the gold you carry. As time went on it got stored in banks and people just transferred signed receipts to retrieve those funds, and then came fiat currency after that which currently aims to keep an economy growing for as long as it can by using inflation.

You're not meant to hold a lot of cash anyway, maybe the same can be said for bitcoin and you're meant to invest or hold other assets that actually pay you back (also there aren't many banks in first countries at least that acutally pay higher than inflation in interest).

You don't utilize Bitcoin, but transferring it from one address to another. A car can be both, utilized and transferred. Bitcon can only be transferred. That's why one cannot use it for want satisfying. And that's why it is worthless. If the only thing that one can do with X is transferring it to someone else, then X is worthless by definition.

Yes, you are correct. Bitcoin doesn't fit my definition of financial instrument. Bitcoin is just a record and not all records are financial instruments.

Gold is not valuable due to declaration but due to utilization in dentistry, medicine, electronic, aerospace and jewelry. Bitcon can only be valuable due to declaration.

Bitcoin has some non-classical fundamental features, not easy to see like

Commodity without a weight ( easy to transport)
Programmable , it could automatically settle, pay (dividends), change ownership, show receipts and trace ( to auditors)
Interoperable, feature atomic swaps, smart contracts on oracle conditions...
Micropayments to reduce spam if used as underlying for mail, google search,....
Only public ledger I know that works for all ( if fully scaled in data centers , like Satoshi told us...)

....


That s cool?

And you utilize Bitcoin.


Which is EXACTLY WHY Bitcoin DOESN"T fit your definition of a Financial Instrument (or at least one of the important reasons why).

Bitcoin is NOT "worthless on its own".


Because it does not fit your definition of "Financial Instrument".


Or...

Stay with me here...

Bitcoin is NOT worthless on its own, and the fundamental feature for which it exists is NOT to provide payment to it's holder, therefore...

It is NOT a Financial Instrument according to your definition.


They kinda do.


No, they do not.


And declaring Gold an actual tangible good doesn't make it valuable either.

And yet, they both are valuable.

You are doing nothing but playing semantics and red herring.

I've said utilizing or consuming. You utilize a car. You consume an apple.

Bitcoin fits my definition of a financial instruments as Bitcon is a record and all financial instruments are digital or paper records that are worthless on their own. But, Bitcoins lacks the fundamental feature for which all financial instruments exist in the first place, and that is to provide payment to their holders. Bitcon pays nothing. Hence, it is a worthless financial instrument.

Bitcoins don't pop up into existence, but are put into existence by design. That means they have issuers.

Declaring Bitcoin an actual intangible good doesn't make it valuable.

If I use a house for satisfying the want of shelter, I do not "consume" the house.  If I use a car for satisfying the want of transportation, I do not "consume" the car. If I use gold for satisfying the want of store and transfer of value, I do not "consume" the gold.

That's just more nonsense.


So, Bitcoin doesn't fit your definition of a "Financial Instrument", and therefore should not be considered a "Financial Instrument" for the purposes of this conversation.


Not true.

There was no payment made for any of those things.  Those individuals provided a service (for free), and issued nothing.

If I write a whitepaper about how the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank works, it does not make the issuer of U.S. dollars.  If I write software that the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank uses to track the dollars that it issues, it does not make me the issuer of U.S. dollars.  If I set up a network for the U.S. Federal Reserve to operate their systems, it does not make me the issuer of U.S. dollars.

This is just more nonsense.


They actually do "pop up into existence".  Or, perhaps you could think of it more like, they always have been and always will be in existence, they are just "found" (much like gold).


Correct.  It is Bitcoin.  If it was gold, it wouldn't be worth as much.


Bitcoin is an actual intangible good that has value on its own.


Bitcoin is much more than that.


Clearly not.