Topic: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? - page 6. (Read 10999 times)
I think it will be soft forked at least. So the attacker can sue every miner in the world and put them into jail.
Except Vitalik has nothing to do with US laws (fortunately).
So that's going to save his ass? Good lord
I've invested on DAOs too but I definitely don't put all my life savings there. we all know crypto isn't the whole thing in this world.
And i guess those investors who deposit millions thinking they'd earn millions as well are just as noobs as they are. so they shouldnt try to find anyone to blame. they've been warned a lot of times in this forum.
All I'm saying is that if there's a crypto which must bend to US laws then it's already a failure because it's already centralized.
I don't know why this guy made a new thread instead of adding to one we already created:
And then we have r0ach who is too high pride to post in any of my threads:
Remember r0ach wrote this:
Okay guys. Enjoy it while you can. I coming whether you like it or not.
I tried to find the posts where r0ach was stalking me in other threads and gloating about Bitcoin being up to $600, but appears he (or the mods) wisely deleted those posts containing his snide/flippant remarks. Damn, I should have quoted them for posterity.
Any way, I found this plagiarism and notice the dates of the two posts...
The thing I've always hated about your insistence on trying to push this Armstrong character is that you basically imply we live in a deterministic universe...
Swiss Contract law requires:
1) Consent of the parties: Acceptance by both parties
2) No Negative elements: Impossibility and Illegality (neither of these apply)
3) Conclusion of contract by representatives: Both parties accepted the contract on their own behalf or are valid representatives of the contractual party.
4) Elements of Interpretation: Does not include Fraud, Duress, etc...
5) Breach of Contract: Damages as a general remedy for a breach. :The general rule is that a party to a contract not performing it correctly, as it is written, must pay damages compensating the failure of performance or its imperfections.
There is no requirement of consideration. Most of the wording in Swiss contract law is written to protect the party agreeing to the contract, not the entity that writes the contract, for obvious reasons.
The irony in all this is that Vitalik is the one, by Swiss law, that could be sued for breach of contract.
You can't write an unprofitable smart contract, then turn around and claim theft when someone takes the other end of the contract and takes all your money. Think about how ridiculous that sounds. Any attempt to undo or rewrite the contract is a breach of contract by Swiss law.
The whole idea of a smart contract is that it inherently holds all of the requirements of a legal contract, provides security superior to traditional contract law, and once entered, it cannot be undone. All of these characteristics of a smart contract have been espoused by Vitalik himself and his own words will be used against him when he is sued in court.
1) Consent of the parties: Acceptance by both parties
2) No Negative elements: Impossibility and Illegality (neither of these apply)
3) Conclusion of contract by representatives: Both parties accepted the contract on their own behalf or are valid representatives of the contractual party.
4) Elements of Interpretation: Does not include Fraud, Duress, etc...
5) Breach of Contract: Damages as a general remedy for a breach. :The general rule is that a party to a contract not performing it correctly, as it is written, must pay damages compensating the failure of performance or its imperfections.
There is no requirement of consideration. Most of the wording in Swiss contract law is written to protect the party agreeing to the contract, not the entity that writes the contract, for obvious reasons.
The irony in all this is that Vitalik is the one, by Swiss law, that could be sued for breach of contract.
You can't write an unprofitable smart contract, then turn around and claim theft when someone takes the other end of the contract and takes all your money. Think about how ridiculous that sounds. Any attempt to undo or rewrite the contract is a breach of contract by Swiss law.
The whole idea of a smart contract is that it inherently holds all of the requirements of a legal contract, provides security superior to traditional contract law, and once entered, it cannot be undone. All of these characteristics of a smart contract have been espoused by Vitalik himself and his own words will be used against him when he is sued in court.
And then we have r0ach who is too high pride to post in any of my threads:
No problem, we already have that covered:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/will-vitalik-flee-the-country-after-the-eth-scheme-implodes-1394842
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/will-vitalik-flee-the-country-after-the-eth-scheme-implodes-1394842
Remember r0ach wrote this:
You are arguing for microtransactions when it's impossible to have microtransactions on a blockchain.
Okay guys. Enjoy it while you can. I coming whether you like it or not.
I tried to find the posts where r0ach was stalking me in other threads and gloating about Bitcoin being up to $600, but appears he (or the mods) wisely deleted those posts containing his snide/flippant remarks. Damn, I should have quoted them for posterity.
Any way, I found this plagiarism and notice the dates of the two posts...
It is possible that Bitcoin has U bottomed at $150 and will meander up to $1200 over the next several months.
The thing I've always hated about your insistence on trying to push this Armstrong character is that you basically imply we live in a deterministic universe...
Bitcoin has now completed a giant, two year long cup and handle...
Can't blame this solely on Tual and The DAO:
In fact, the flaw is in SOLIDARITY:
...
There are no safety mechanisms built into the SOLIDARITY. There was no attempt to do this incrementally. They released Turing-complete scripting into the wild knowing full well that it must blow up. Very, very unprofessional.
We can't blame this just on The DAO. The root cause starts with Vitalik and his delusions. Casper was another delusion that we knew would fail. How many months and $millions did they waste on that.
There are no safety mechanisms built into the SOLIDARITY. There was no attempt to do this incrementally. They released Turing-complete scripting into the wild knowing full well that it must blow up. Very, very unprofessional.
We can't blame this just on The DAO. The root cause starts with Vitalik and his delusions. Casper was another delusion that we knew would fail. How many months and $millions did they waste on that.
In fact, the flaw is in SOLIDARITY:
Follow-up:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15250689
Also note the current hack of The DAO is a reason I'd probably not prefer to build anything on Ethereum. I don't trust the code of those inexperienced, wide-eyed youngsters.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15250689
Also note the current hack of The DAO is a reason I'd probably not prefer to build anything on Ethereum. I don't trust the code of those inexperienced, wide-eyed youngsters.
Jah mon. I don't think you're pointing fingers at Vitalik, that was not my intent. Your posts have been refreshing over the last week or two from the babble of this forum. Even though I'm not as locked in as you from the tech side, I feel ya. Bottom line, is when crypto becomes a fucking company it's juxtaposed to its intent. It won't work.
Ethereum is a Swiss company. Just for the sake of completeness, both German and Swiss contract law clearly state this: as long as the attacker did not act in good faith (and he certainly did not!!!) he cannot legally own the funds.
You have to prove he didn't act in good faith. The attacker is attempting to show that Vitalik and "accomplices" are acting in bad faith. Listen to the video I posted where the attorney Pamela explains it.
Also I believe Swiss & German contract law (as you stated it) is roughly consistent with common law in common law countries as the attorney Pamela in the videos explained.
The DAO did not have any TOS that specified jurisdiction. Thus the attacker can choose which ever jurisdiction he wants. Ditto the plaintiffs that lost money due to the incident, if they don't fork.
So your point may be irrelevant for any civil lawsuits. But for criminal liability, you are probably correct (and I presume Vitalik is protected by a Swiss corporation shielding him).
It will be interesting to see what the attacker's next move is. I believe MP is a Bitcoin maximalist and I expect him to not give up. I expect he has a counter move.
Vitalik did nothing wrong, ETH is not at fault 
The DAO creators are at fault. Especially when they publicly posted a warning about this recursive vulnerability a few days ago. Such stupidity, wow. Why, they should have implemented a fucking soft fork 7 days ago, a preventive one, freezing all affected projects until further notice. Instead of posting it in a blog. They have a security guy on board but maybe he was on vacation? Read this an weep:
https://blog.slock.it/no-dao-funds-at-risk-following-the-ethereum-smart-contract-recursive-call-bug-discovery-29f482d348b#.djds4v5i4
https://blog.slock.it/announcing-dao-framework-1-1-35249e2e001#.377vb829l
Slock.it, however, is in Germany and Germany does not extradite their citizens. And as long as no criminal intent is proven, no one will go to jail in Germany for something like this.
So, no - they will not go to jail, I think.
Ethereum is a Swiss company. Just for the sake of completeness, both German and Swiss contract law clearly state this: as long as the attacker did not act in good faith (and he certainly did not!!!) he cannot legally own the funds.
The DAO creators are at fault. Especially when they publicly posted a warning about this recursive vulnerability a few days ago. Such stupidity, wow. Why, they should have implemented a fucking soft fork 7 days ago, a preventive one, freezing all affected projects until further notice. Instead of posting it in a blog. They have a security guy on board but maybe he was on vacation? Read this an weep:
https://blog.slock.it/no-dao-funds-at-risk-following-the-ethereum-smart-contract-recursive-call-bug-discovery-29f482d348b#.djds4v5i4
https://blog.slock.it/announcing-dao-framework-1-1-35249e2e001#.377vb829l
Slock.it, however, is in Germany and Germany does not extradite their citizens. And as long as no criminal intent is proven, no one will go to jail in Germany for something like this.
So, no - they will not go to jail, I think.
Ethereum is a Swiss company. Just for the sake of completeness, both German and Swiss contract law clearly state this: as long as the attacker did not act in good faith (and he certainly did not!!!) he cannot legally own the funds.
LOL @ Vitalik in jail: ETHER $1B market cap, creator traded for pack of cigarettes.
He's not going to jail. I don't believe he'd intentionally code a backdoor. He's a scientist, not a con artist.
He's not going to jail. I don't believe he'd intentionally code a backdoor. He's a scientist, not a con artist.
Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, please note the subject of the thread is a question, not a position.
I also don't think Vitalik was scamming. However, I do think he got himself into a quagmire of his own making, because we all warned him that Turing-complete block chain scripts are dangerous and he chose to ignore us. I even warned his co-founder before they launched Ethereum. And Ethereum has never been upfront about the risks in their technology. They've pushed hype without any sobering reality for balance. That is why there are so many n00bs who did not do due diligence on The DAO.
And please note what I wrote earlier:
It is too fast if we judge vitalik going to end in jail, because he is just a part of developer ethereum. And we are don't have any proof that vitalik has taken the coins.
I've morphed my understanding to threats being more civil lawsuits and not securities regulation with potential criminal liability, although the former can apparently in some cases drive the latter (i.e. the SEC feels compelled to come in because of the public outrage, which the attorney mentioned early in that linked video).
Now that we have a real attorney on camera, you all can stop thinking I am full of bullshit.
Vindicated!
LOL @ Vitalik in jail: ETHER $1B market cap, creator traded for pack of cigarettes.
He's not going to jail. I don't believe he'd intentionally code a backdoor. He's a scientist, not a con artist.
He's not going to jail. I don't believe he'd intentionally code a backdoor. He's a scientist, not a con artist.
Anyway, PoW means the miners decide...
And EthPool miners are voting 99.5% in favor of a "soft fork" to freeze DAO funds.
http://ethpool.org/stats/votes
And EthPool miners are voting 99.5% in favor of a "soft fork" to freeze DAO funds.
http://ethpool.org/stats/votes
Apologies for attacking you about your choice of supporting the soft fork. I edited my message to remove the offending part. I support the free market and the people must decide what they want.
Here is my response to your vote for the soft fork:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15283083
Nothing to do with US laws. Hahaha hahaha, God you're funny. Best joke I've heard all day. Look up US Securities treaties
Ethereum is based primarily in North America and EU...
So I would guess 25-50% of DAO investors would be US citizens.
This places events squarely in the jurisdiction of US authorities.
VB is likely in the clear...
But Stephan Tual and the Slock.it group are certainly guilty of multiple violations including fraud...
They invented and coded the DAO in order to finance their pet projects with free $$$...
And Slock.it specifically promoted the fact that investors could have their ETH refunded at par (no risk)...
While hiding the fact that an ETH refund was VERY technically difficult... and would take at least 7 weeks (high risk).
Anyway, PoW means the miners decide...
And EthPool miners are voting 99.5% in favor of a "soft fork" to freeze DAO funds.
http://ethpool.org/stats/votes
No Chinese miners that launder money for a fee here...
No patented Bitcoin-style leadership paralysis that has mired BTC for 2.5 years below the pre-Gox high.
This stuttering "genius" is your leader? Vitalik was clearly flustered by the question. Must listen to this! And look at the body language of Gavin Wood and the other guy on the podium.
"I am 99.999% certain this is bug free."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cahj4WJtp20&feature=youtu.be&t=42m52s
The Naive hubris is very dangerous within Vitalik.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cahj4WJtp20&feature=youtu.be&t=42m52s
The Naive hubris is very dangerous within Vitalik.
I just want to know who are the fucktards still buying ETH at the current prices.
I am a miner, but as the price is quite low at the moment, i have stopping selling, that might support the price a bit.
I just want to know who are the fucktards still buying ETH at the current prices.
The answer was in your question
but seriously, those are the vultures, thinking there are bones at pick. It's going to get much leaner when they publically announce the forkage decision. Basically, if you are buying now, you are assuming this is the bottom (it's not). 
I just want to know who are the fucktards still buying ETH at the current prices.
It is too fast if we judge vitalik going to end in jail, because he is just a part of developer ethereum. And we are don't have any proof that vitalik has taken the coins.
I've morphed my understanding to threats being more civil lawsuits and not securities regulation with potential criminal liability, although the former can apparently in some cases drive the latter (i.e. the SEC feels compelled to come in because of the public outrage, which the attorney mentioned early in that linked video).
Now that we have a real attorney on camera, you all can stop thinking I am full of bullshit.
Vindicated!
It is too fast if we judge vitalik going to end in jail, because he is just a part of developer ethereum. And we are don't have any proof that vitalik has taken the coins.
Vitalik et al are playing with fire as I pondered upthread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864
Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge!
The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864
Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge!
The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money.
Vitalik just propose a change to the Etheruem protocol. It is the miners who will be responsible for the restoring the money from the theft.
The court may not agree that Vitalik has no political power. Considering how much all the mETH supporters prays at his feet, I'd say it is likely the court will find that Vitalik and his accomplices are significantly in control of the enterprise. But that is just my opinion as an observer. What do others think?
And remember that the attorney pointed out that each of the 1000s of plaintiffs can sue in any one of the 1000s of jurisdictions. Someone can find a favorable judge some where!!!
This is what I specifically warned about over the past months. I can even quote where I said that jurisdiction shopping would be a PITA because one would have to defend themselves against an unbounded number of threats.
As the attorney Pamela points out, this issue could have been significantly mitigated if their attorneys had advised them to add an arbitration clause to the TOS and also had more sobering disclosures on their TOS so that plaintiffs couldn't just choose willynilly to make any sort of claim of injury in any jurisdiction.
Who set up the legal structure for Ethereum et al? They apparently suck!
Vitalik et al are playing with fire as I pondered upthread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864
Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge!
The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864
Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge!
The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money.
Vitalik just propose a change to the Etheruem protocol. It is the miners who will be responsible for the restoring the money from the theft.
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