Vitalik et al are playing with fire as I pondered upthread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=3864
Especially listen at 1:06:15! And listen at 1:11:15 where the attorney says Vitalik (et al) is creating dangerous legal liability for himself (themselves) by being the judge!
The likely party to be sued are those who can be identified and have a pot of money.
Topic: Vitalik and Tual going to end up in jail? - page 7. (Read 10999 times)
LTB Live - TheDAO TheFork TheFallout
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ
Published on Jun 18, 2016
A live show recorded in the aftermath of the DAO's draining of funds by an unknown actor. In this show, Andreas M. Antonopoulos moderates a discussion with guests Pamela Morgan (attorney), Brian Klein (attorney) and Taylor Gerring (Ethereum Project co-founder), with live twitter Q&A and participation from the DAO slack channel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ
Published on Jun 18, 2016
A live show recorded in the aftermath of the DAO's draining of funds by an unknown actor. In this show, Andreas M. Antonopoulos moderates a discussion with guests Pamela Morgan (attorney), Brian Klein (attorney) and Taylor Gerring (Ethereum Project co-founder), with live twitter Q&A and participation from the DAO slack channel.
Starting at @11min and especially @18:30min, some of my upthread points about the legal culpability are backed up by a real attorney!
Truth about the "1 million dollar" security audit-
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4ota1q/the_truth_about_the_security_audit_stephen_tual/
This is the only published security report from Deja Vu Security for Slockit.
https://mega.nz/#!MVwHAaxb!Ym7TYpjO5k059bty5rWG-Cwi6jjd78rl1HeTsE4PIBc
A 3 page document with under 100 words of text, concerning an 'Integer Division Error Accumulation' dating from March 25th.
If there has been more comprehensive code review, the burden lies on Slockit it team and theDao curators to prove this.
From the evidence at hand, there is ZERO evidence of a comprehensive security audit, which is shameful and sickening.
This seems like an elaborate plot to:
Save money on security audits (since he wasn't getting paid 1 mil USD)
Attribute blame to DejaVu, even though technically they were not asked to comprehensively review DAO code.
If there was no additional security audit, DejaVu is well within its rights to sue Tual for libel.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4ota1q/the_truth_about_the_security_audit_stephen_tual/
This is the only published security report from Deja Vu Security for Slockit.
https://mega.nz/#!MVwHAaxb!Ym7TYpjO5k059bty5rWG-Cwi6jjd78rl1HeTsE4PIBc
A 3 page document with under 100 words of text, concerning an 'Integer Division Error Accumulation' dating from March 25th.
If there has been more comprehensive code review, the burden lies on Slockit it team and theDao curators to prove this.
From the evidence at hand, there is ZERO evidence of a comprehensive security audit, which is shameful and sickening.
This seems like an elaborate plot to:
Save money on security audits (since he wasn't getting paid 1 mil USD)
Attribute blame to DejaVu, even though technically they were not asked to comprehensively review DAO code.
If there was no additional security audit, DejaVu is well within its rights to sue Tual for libel.
In other words, I have no idea what sort of people Vitalik hangs with, so talking shit on the interweb prob'ly ain't the smartest thing ever.
...
This could be his downfall if Ethereum sides with "law" and lure him into violating some US law. The SEC is probably still waiting to entrap him.
But I don't like where Vitalik is headed with this blacklisting shit!
As many of us opined before the failure, The DAO was going to lead to more regulation of CC.
Vitalik et al creating an obvious clusterfuck that results in blacklisting thus handing the State the power to implement KYC blocking in the future, just smacks of premeditated.
The legalness of the "attack" got murky when the "attacker" put in the order for the eth short. Curious to see if using that information, or dissemination of it to others, constitutes insider trading.
The vulnerability was open sourced before he did it thus apparently no insider information was used! Even the developers of DAO had a patch but didn't push through with it.
It is so unbelieveable, but I can't make this stuff up.
You're mixing apples and potatoes here. Bitcoin mostly uses soft-forks in order to improve its capabilities. Bitcoin has never used any kind of coin-control or bailouts which is exactly what ETH is going to do. If they do that, ETH is not immutable. Period.
Forking to remove 184 billion Bitcoins is a form of coin control.
Do you understand that Bitcoin was forked to address an issue created by a bug in the Bitcoin code?
It was not forked because a transaction script did not do what someone expected as DoOverCoin is proposing to do.
Intent is ambiguous unless we bind ourselves to a majority vote:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15278364
Thus I now say the fork of Bitcoin was equivalent to a fork of Ethereum w.r.t. to the context we are debating.
I just realized this.
Btw, this is also why Satoshi did not solve the Byzantine General's Problem.
Except Vitalik has nothing to do with US laws (fortunately).
So that's going to save his ass? Good lord
I've invested on DAOs too but I definitely don't put all my life savings there. we all know crypto isn't the whole thing in this world.
And i guess those investors who deposit millions thinking they'd earn millions as well are just as noobs as they are. so they shouldnt try to find anyone to blame. they've been warned a lot of times in this forum.
Yup those good ole boys who control the enterprise were hyping a moonshot without sobering disclaimers:
But it is vitaliks centrally planned toy. Vitalik has been and will be the central weak link of the project. If he wishes to break the immutability of the blockchain. Let it be so!
If the "attacker" exposes him/herself and he/she is in the US as he said in the open letter, I think he could be sent to prison for the hacking with bad intent.
MP is the person who drained the DAO. Did you read my post above where I wrote to verify the Keccak hash?
MP is the antithesis of Craig Wright. He does not bullshit. MP is the one who did this. He is surely capable of it.
Trivial factoid: MP and rpietila were enemies since before 2013. And in 2013, MP sent AnonyMint a private message offering collaboration.
AnonyMint has grown to respect MP as a maverick peer, and in some respects in awe of MP. MP's support of Blockstream could end up causing a conflict between MP and AnonyMint at some point in the near future.
Titans will do battle. Prepare your cupboard supply of popcorn.I am confused by MP's support of Blockstream, because I thought he was for small blocks and was willing to kill XT to defend the status quo (i.e. Classic):
So is that interview legitimate? If so that guy gives zero fucks and is a straight internet gangster. Not my type person, but I kinda admire him.
Mircea Popescu (MP) has a core constitution which is that every person should be responsible for themself. And he originally was adamant that he would attack any Bitcoin fork that raised the block size. He also appears to be against shitcoins and he is a Bitcoin maximalist. He sees himself as a defender of anarchism. He also is motivated by profit. I definitely agree with his anarchism/self-responsibility constitution, but if he is supporting Blockstream's Rube Goldberg complexity future-clusterfuck Troika of SegWit, Side-chains, and Lightning Networks then he and I are going to disagree!
GTFO of ETH at $12 while you still can! The deadcat bounce is topping and lower, lower we will go. Because MP is not a bullshitter. And he has very significant BTC resources > 50,000 BTC.
If the "attacker" exposes him/herself and he/she is in the US as he said in the open letter, I think he could be sent to prison for the hacking with bad intent.
It's different if the remedy comes from within the logic of the DAO code itself. That would be appropriate because that was where the logic failed. But forking at the Ethereum blockchain level is just suicide.
I realise that only the DAO would be affected by the fork but that just makes it even worse because it shows that forks can cherry pick what contracts they want to immute. I'm afraid the damage done in terms of loss of confidence will be irreparable.
I realise that only the DAO would be affected by the fork but that just makes it even worse because it shows that forks can cherry pick what contracts they want to immute. I'm afraid the damage done in terms of loss of confidence will be irreparable.
Ignoring the legal factors which impact the game theory because that enterprise is not really decentralized (e.g. Vitalik, Tual, et al hyping moonshots to n00b dreamers without sobering disclaimers and the incestuous same set of good ole boys as Curators of The DAO), then I agree with you that the only fork of the Ethereum protocol which would be agnostic would be that which would futilely attempt to "fix" the litany of corner case bugs induced by Turing-complete programming.
Re: BREAKING NEWS: DAO Attacker Identified!!
I didn't verify the Keccak hash (which is apparently why others thought the hash didn't match because they were assuming SHA256?). If it matches, then I would expect MP could be the one to pull this off. He has also told the SEC go to fuck themselves. You all may remember AnonyMint once debated MP on BCT about his cavalier attitude towards the SEC.
So this changes the complexity of Vitalik's decision process, because he appears convinced that he can win a suit in tort law. He appears to be arguing that splitting was an intended feature and they he did not violate the intent of the contract. Given that The DAO's only purpose was a power vacuum game theory of who could capture the pooled ETH, I am thinking maybe he and his lawyers are correct.
So much drama today.
Judging by this, the maverick Mircea Popescu seems to be taking credit:
http://trilema.com/2016/to-the-dao-and-the-ethereum-community-fuck-you/
http://trilema.com/2016/to-the-dao-and-the-ethereum-community-fuck-you/
I didn't verify the Keccak hash (which is apparently why others thought the hash didn't match because they were assuming SHA256?). If it matches, then I would expect MP could be the one to pull this off. He has also told the SEC go to fuck themselves. You all may remember AnonyMint once debated MP on BCT about his cavalier attitude towards the SEC.
So this changes the complexity of Vitalik's decision process, because he appears convinced that he can win a suit in tort law. He appears to be arguing that splitting was an intended feature and they he did not violate the intent of the contract. Given that The DAO's only purpose was a power vacuum game theory of who could capture the pooled ETH, I am thinking maybe he and his lawyers are correct.
So much drama today.
Also:
https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/06/19/thinking-smart-contract-security/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4oqdnc/the_ethereum_foundation_needs_to_distance_itself/
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4oq6yh/will_stephan_tual_apologize/
Edit: I was very sleepy when I wrote the above. I see now that MP's plan is not to sue in court, but rather to incentivize the miners not to fork:
https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/exclusive-full-interview-transcript-alleged-dao-attacker/
If the exchanges try to blacklist his ETH, that kills fungibility and ETH will collapse in price.
Except Vitalik has nothing to do with US laws (fortunately).
Fuck The Law
Absolutely spot on!
He has inconsistencies in his logic.
Absolutely spot on!
So all the scam coin creators should go to jail.
I never wrote what should or shouldn't happen. I am trying to ascertain what the risks are.
Why blame me for wanting to know? It is as if you are thinking that I am saying all scam coin creators should go to jail, when in fact I just finished the prior day a public passionate discussion with smooth wherein I stated exactly the opposite stance to what you imply I am promulgating.
Do you not see the Subject of this thread has a question mark.
There is a distinction between inquiry and accusation. I suppose I don't need to remind you gentlemen how to use a dictionary.
Nothing to do with US laws. Hahaha hahaha, God you're funny. Best joke I've heard all day. Look up US Securities treaties
Who are you addressing this to? Is this addressed to bathrobehero or to me or to the person I quoted in the OP?
I have not made reference specifically to USA law. I am quoting in the OP about common law as it pertains to contracts. There are many common law countries on earth.
The point I am making is that when class action lawsuits are pressed (in the case of the potential security), that is often when securities regulators are compelled to become involved (at least in the USA and I don't know about other countries but I presume they have some securities regulation also).
Ethereum and the DAO I presume are held by people in many nations on earth, so laws can filed in any of those nations. And I also understand that class action lawsuits from the USA are sometimes endorsed in other countries (but not that I am claiming any class action lawsuit has to originate from the USA):
http://brooklynworks.brooklaw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1098&context=bjil
http://lsr.nellco.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1388&context=nyu_lewp#page=4
I don't know to what extent international securities treaties exclude jurisdiction for example issuance of ETH tokens from Switzerland or Germany to non-accredited USA users. Ditto DAO tokens. Could you enlighten us? I've read that foreign issuers are subject to US Securities Law when issuing to USA persons, but I think there may be some exceptions. Maybe you can shed more light on this for us?
But again, I wasn't focusing solely on the USA jurisdiction.
Jump to: