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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 17503. (Read 26714748 times)

sr. member
Activity: 286
Merit: 251
Extension Blocks <3 Rootstock <3
bitcoin  the currency and bitcoin the Network, are one and the same and can't be separated, at least i dont see how that can be done.
Not entirely of course, but the relationship can be weakened

An incomplete thought:
Why not add emergent consensus on blocksize through soft forked extension blocks and 1MB+segwit on the main blocks?
oh i see what your saying....
well... that sounds like sapeggit.
i want to say, SF are evil.
Lol sapeggitt ;oD
Yeah the beauty is that you only have to softfork once if you prefer hardforks and than can hardfork the extension blocks chain all you want without having the danger to double the BTC amount.

While segwit may be a compromise beetween small blockers and normal blockers, it completely disregards big blockers and as we can see through segwit readyness signaling also provides little incentive (or even negative) to miners.

Another compromise could be main block 1 MB, extension block Core with segwit and max 2.7 MB blockweight and extensionblock with EC blocksize.
So when you'd run core, you'd have the same spam attack surface as with segwit now.
Of course this would mean more work for devs, which want EC, but the potential reward is higher.

The beauty for BU would be that afterwards you could hard-fork on that extension blocks all you want, without having the risk to split the base BTC currency.
I feel like core devs would love(not hate?) this idea.
But idk a SF which requires miner consensus , and requires nodes to update to make sense of the new "extension block" seems kinda pointless, HF seems cleaner, and the coins in the extension block probably won't be fungible with real BTC ?? idk.
Edit: even with all that said... i think you might be onto somthing, but idk!
I don't think core devs would love this. They would have to compromise too...
Devs are pretty smart - it would be no problem to implement this, the question is do they want to and if this is an acceptable compromise.
Unless devs for one extension block don't fuck everything up, they should always be fungible with real BTC through the main block.

The overall fungibility might even improve because downgrading the bitcoins back into main blocks could (would likely?) be implemented with free mixing.

In essence you could upgrade your bitcoins from the main block utxo to an extension block utxo.
Downgrading of course is also possible, although technically slightly more difficult.

Of course to send btc from a therotical EC extension block to a theoretical segwit extension block this could take some time, but this should be alot faster than if we split into two chains and you would'nt even be able to do this, no, you'd have to go through an exchange.
And than you'd of course have services like we have today with shapeshift, which would reduce the number of needed downgrade/upgrade to other extension block chain alot.

As a normal user your wallet could do that for you automatically.
The complexity could be wrapped through different adresses for the different extension blocks.

Its a bit like Lightning BTCs. When you have locked up your BTC in a channel you cannot use them otherwise. But the other party may not accept Lightning so you may find yourself in a dilemma.

So we would be better here from a user experience too compared to a split - and most settled transactions would be intra extension block.

You could design the basic idea of extension blocks in a numerous ways.
The most advanced document I found so far is this, though the document may slightly differ from my idea
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-January/013490.html



It is not ideal, but it I like it far better than status quo, contentious HF or UASF, which are the most popular ideas atm.

Thinking further ahead, I don't think we will end up with endless different extension blocks.
Each extension block has to provide clear advantages over what we already have.
Segwit and EC blocksize should both have enough interested people.

For the digital gold people, who only want to HODL this would be completely opt-in.
You could still use plain bitcoin 0.12 and receive bitcoins, completely ignoring the extension blocks.
Nobody would force you to use segwit or submit to EC.

It is not a perfect solution, but the best I currently can see. I think it is feasable, morally acceptable, makes HFs easier within the extsion blocks, preserves node decentrailization, allows miners to let onchain compete with offchain and most importantly does not split the currency bitcoin.

It does not need the permission from every development team. BU could go ahead, team up with Classic and do this without Core, if they would get support from the miners.

On the negative side i would create a little technical debt in the beginning, because you'd have to support extension blocks.
But later you would be saved from additional technical debt and could even pay off some.
E.g. if EC extension blockers deem segwit technical debt they do not need to support segwit.

Of course - an uncontentious HF would be cleaner, but due to politics from all sides will not happen in the next years.
For me this is so much more appealing than a chain split.

P.S. my personal favorite is SBTC with RSK ;oD

RSK probably requires low BTC TX fees to work?
its very interesting.
I got into OMNI a while back, as a way to double down on bitcoin's success.
Funny thing is - because they use a completely seperate blockchain (which is merge mined with bitcoin) i suspect the oposite.
The higher the fees on the main chain - the more incentive for users to go to the sidechain, where we can easily have 100 tps onchain.
RSK will have a two way peg -> 1 Smart Bitcoin (SBTC) equals 1 Bitcoin
But atleast initially RSK has a very different (trust-) model than plain BTC and will need completly new software.

legendary
Activity: 3794
Merit: 5474

It was called the crypto currency wars. ______ won

Well accord to Roger, it's now not Bitcoin.

I'm not sure what he's smoking, but I wouldn't bet on that.
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
Roger is teaching economics 101 out of his ass. If you're interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/61oycs/substitute_goods/

no one is buying altcoins!

ahahaha what a dumbass.

The "free market" as a whole will never accept 'all' the cryptocurrencies out there that have splintered into several hardly distinguishable variants, or even the top 3-5. No fkn way, too much confusion, too much integration, too much hassle. Not worth it for industry merchants to do that and support integrating them all.

If they are even going to do it at all, the world markets and merchants will only consolidate on the ONE cryptocurrency with the most end user popularity, the most industry backing, the largest ecosystem, the strongest brandTM recognition.

Everything else will just be noise, and probably not even a close second.

We've been through this same competitive shit before.

It was called the enterprise search engine wars. Google won.
It was called the smartphone marketcap wars. Android won.
It was called the commercial desktop OS wars. Microsoft won.
It was called the enterprise backend server wars. Fedora/RHEL linux won.
It was called the privatized corporate Intranet wars. The free Internet won.

wait altavista didnt win?


It was called the crypto currency wars. ______ won
legendary
Activity: 3794
Merit: 5474
Roger is teaching economics 101 out of his ass. If you're interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/61oycs/substitute_goods/

no one is buying altcoins!

ahahaha what a dumbass.

The "free market" as a whole will never accept 'all' the cryptocurrencies out there that have splintered into several hardly distinguishable variants, or even the top 3-5. No fkn way, too much confusion, too much integration, too much hassle. Not worth it for industry merchants to do that and support integrating them all.

If they are even going to do it at all, the world markets and merchants will only consolidate on the ONE cryptocurrency with the most end user popularity, the most industry backing, the largest ecosystem, the strongest brandTM recognition.

Everything else will just be noise, and probably not even a close second.

We've been through this same competitive shit before.

It was called the enterprise search engine wars. Google won.
It was called the smartphone marketcap wars. Android won.
It was called the commercial desktop OS wars. Microsoft won.
It was called the enterprise backend server wars. Fedora/RHEL linux won.
It was called the social network wars. Facebook won.
It was called the privatized corporate Intranet wars. The free Internet won.
legendary
Activity: 3620
Merit: 4813
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
Do we really need to split bitcoin the currency?
A compromise with the Bitcoin Network/Blockchain would be better IMHO.
bitcoin  the currency and bitcoin the Network, are one and the same and can't be separated, at least i dont see how that can be done.


As far as i can tell, the majority is not comfortable with EC blocksize let alone BU.
On the other side I think UASF without 51% miner support is dangerous, because miners could just fake support for UASF and just orphan all blocks, which would actually include segwit transactions, while still adhering to the rules of the UASF/segwit.

So IMHO UASF does not safely work under given circumstances and EC has not enough economic support to do a safe HF.
i think UASF is safe if done with a HF-PoW change.
but ya this is more nutty then proposing 1GB block IMO  


An incomplete thought:
Why not add emergent consensus on blocksize through soft forked extension blocks and 1MB+segwit on the main blocks?
oh i see what your saying....
well... that sounds like sapeggit.
i want to say, SF are evil.


Another compromise could be main block 1 MB, extension block Core with segwit and max 2.7 MB blockweight and extensionblock with EC blocksize.
So when you'd run core, you'd have the same spam attack surface as with segwit now.
Of course this would mean more work for devs, which want EC, but the potential reward is higher.

The beauty for BU would be that afterwards you could hard-fork on that extension blocks all you want, without having the risk to split the base BTC currency.
I feel like core devs would love(not hate?) this idea.
But idk a SF which requires miner consensus , and requires nodes to update to make sense of the new "extension block" seems kinda pointless, HF seems cleaner, and the coins in the extension block probably won't be fungible with real BTC ?? idk.

Edit: even with all that said... i think you might be onto somthing, but idk!

P.S. my personal favorite is SBTC with RSK ;oD

RSK probably requires low BTC TX fees to work?
its very interesting.
I got into OMNI a while back, as a way to double down on bitcoin's success.
legendary
Activity: 3962
Merit: 11519
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
You bunch of panic sellers, it is actually looking good again for the first time. Smiley
On thirty days backwards we are making lower lows. The hights dropping sharper since eleven days, that marks the transition from bullish into bearish mode.


Sounds like wishful thinking more than anything.

I think that the market is consolidating and trying to figure out which mode it is going to be in. 


May take several weeks to figure out whether we will be returning upwards or not.... The situation is far from certain in either case.
legendary
Activity: 1245
Merit: 1004
You bunch of panic sellers, it is actually looking good again for the first time. Smiley
On thirty days backwards we are making lower lows. The hights dropping sharper since eleven days, that marks the transition from bullish into bearish mode.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Roger is teaching economics 101 out of his ass. If you're interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/61oycs/substitute_goods/

He's kind of right there.  I always thought if bitcoin doesn't scale and fees go too high transactions would bleed into an altcoin like litecoin.  Then once litecoin fees go to high they would bleed into something else.  At this point cryptocurrency would either be a slow march to the graveyard with continuous fracturing of the ecosystem, or you would end up with regional currencies developing to avoid the overhead of outside ecosystems.  

It's possible the common link between each regional currency would be bitcoin, but it's also possible it would be some fiat note or gold/silver/oil whatever instead.  The common link is what other nations would accept in international trade settlement.  They currently accept useless things like tbills, but most people seem to be pushing towards settling international trade in gold.  If you were the king of a country and selling oil to someone else, would you rather have gold or bitcoin?...

I'd probably want something more than imaginary electrons as payment if I was dumping my country's natural resources on the market.  Bitcoin is similar to fiat paper promises in that regard - an IOU to receive goods or services from someone else at a later date.  It requires another party to honor that contract, which is not legally binding nor even a gentlemen's agreement - just an assumption some random guy is going to give you stuff for it some day.  It takes an actual physical commodity based currency that you can hold in your hand and defend with an AR15 to eleminate that counter party risk.

Someone might not agree to be your slave just because you have a bag of gold, but at least you don't end up with a bag of nothing out of the deal.
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
Roger is teaching economics 101 out of his ass. If you're interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/61oycs/substitute_goods/

no one is buying altcoins!

ahahaha what a dumbass.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
Roger is teaching economics 101 out of his ass. If you're interested:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/61oycs/substitute_goods/
legendary
Activity: 3220
Merit: 2334
I fix broken miners. And make holes in teeth :-)
"Effectively our cost of coin – how much we produce the coins for – will be over the market price. The price is now [roughly] $480. With all of our overhead, after July, the cost will be over $480. All of the liabilities we’ll have after that time will be too high."

Quote
He said the move to bankruptcy was a pre-emptive one taken by KnC’s board of directors, explaining that the firm wanted to avoid running out of funds prior to the drop in revenue.
[/quote]
KNC blew it in a few ways: They stopped making the Titan, which was probably the longest-lasting profitable miner (2+ years) ever, and they didn't realize the price of bitcoin would just double to account for the halving.

Ah well.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 503
Bear with me
You bunch of panic sellers, it is actually looking good again for the first time. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3962
Merit: 11519
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
Today's candle was a nailbiter, and just barely closed in the green on Bitstamp - and did not close in the green on some of the other exchanges. Therefore, I am going to put off any prediction regarding whether we are out of the woods yet... .. at least to see one more daily candle - tomorrow's.

At this point, tentatively we could be bouncing around in a price range of $800 to $1,150 for several months.. and I will still assert that I believe that the odds are greater that a break out will go through the top of the range rather than through the bottom.. yet it is seeming possible that we could be in this range for some time.

Actually, if we were to continue downwards in the next 24 hours and support does not hold at $900-ish, then I would possibly change my tentative opinion about $800 holding as well.. but for now, mid-$900s seem to be our temporary and still uncertain price territory.
legendary
Activity: 2772
Merit: 2846
Do we really need to split bitcoin the currency?
A compromise with the Bitcoin Network/Blockchain would be better IMHO.

You can't compromise with extortionists. They will always ask for more. The snake must be killed. The sooner the better.

Yeah.. I don't even know which side you are referring to
Seems to me that this is true for extremist on both sides.
I'm more or less comfortable in the middle of this mess.

There is no mess. Bitcoin is in excellent shape.
One of the major mining pools is insolvent (in bitcoins) and is trying to crash bitcoin in order to conceal their insolvency.

How the heck does a pool go bankrupt?  Huh
Can you give a link please.


It's possible, KnCMiner went bankrupt and blamed it on the cost of mining. They said after the halving it would cost them more to mine Bitcoins than they could sell them for.


http://www.coindesk.com/kncminer-declares-bankruptcy-cites-upcoming-bitcoin-subsidy-halving/

Quote
Sweden-based bitcoin mining firm KnCMiner, a startup that has raised $32m in venture funding from investors including Accel and Creandum, has declared bankruptcy.

Quote
Cole claimed that the primary factor was the upcoming drop in the bitcoin transaction block reward subsidy, set to take place sometime in the middle of July.

Currently, when a miner successfully processes a block, they receive a reward of 25 freshly minted bitcoins. Once the halving takes place, the subsidy will drop to 12.5 BTC – an event that effectively cuts a miner’s bitcoin income by half.

Cole told CoinDesk:

"Effectively our cost of coin – how much we produce the coins for – will be over the market price. The price is now [roughly] $480. With all of our overhead, after July, the cost will be over $480. All of the liabilities we’ll have after that time will be too high."

Quote
He said the move to bankruptcy was a pre-emptive one taken by KnC’s board of directors, explaining that the firm wanted to avoid running out of funds prior to the drop in revenue.
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1145
Do we really need to split bitcoin the currency?
A compromise with the Bitcoin Network/Blockchain would be better IMHO.

You can't compromise with extortionists. They will always ask for more. The snake must be killed. The sooner the better.

Yeah.. I don't even know which side you are referring to
Seems to me that this is true for extremist on both sides.
I'm more or less comfortable in the middle of this mess.

There is no mess. Bitcoin is in excellent shape.
One of the major mining pools is insolvent (in bitcoins) and is trying to crash bitcoin in order to conceal their insolvency.

How the heck does a pool go bankrupt?  Huh
Can you give a link please.
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
Do we really need to split bitcoin the currency?
A compromise with the Bitcoin Network/Blockchain would be better IMHO.

You can't compromise with extortionists. They will always ask for more. The snake must be killed. The sooner the better.

Yeah.. I don't even know which side you are referring to
Seems to me that this is true for extremist on both sides.
I'm more or less comfortable in the middle of this mess.

There is no mess. Bitcoin is in excellent shape.
One of the major mining pools is insolvent (in bitcoins) and is trying to crash bitcoin in order to conceal their insolvency.
sr. member
Activity: 286
Merit: 251
Extension Blocks <3 Rootstock <3
Do we really need to split bitcoin the currency?
A compromise with the Bitcoin Network/Blockchain would be better IMHO.

You can't compromise with extortionists. They will always ask for more. The snake must be killed. The sooner the better.

Yeah.. I don't even know which side you are referring to
Seems to me that this is true for extremist on both sides.
I'm more or less comfortable in the middle of this mess.
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
Do we really need to split bitcoin the currency?
A compromise with the Bitcoin Network/Blockchain would be better IMHO.

You can't compromise with extortionists. They will always ask for more. The snake must be killed. The sooner the better.
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