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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 18301. (Read 26608322 times)

legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1012
BitGo and BitFinex are both very keen to point out that none of the blame lies with BitGo. Finex apparently had a custom setup with BitGo, unlike any other BitGo customer. [...]
Perhaps there is something else going on and I haven't read about it or it isn't public knowledge?

Jeesh, for people who seem to value outside-the-box thinking, you guys are thinking smack-dab inside the box.
BitGo implementation was used so that BFX could continue p2p lending (needed for leverage trading), without having to commingle the customer funds in a wallet it controlled (reason for the CFTC fine they paid).

So BitGo did exactly what was asked of it, allowing BFX to keep doing what it was already doing, without the need to become a licensed futures exchange.

I don't see how separating wallets by individual depositor requires ignoring proven security methods. Are you suggesting that security and appeasing the CFTC are mutually exclusive?

"Leverage is a loan that is provided to an investor by the broker that is handling his or her forex account. When an investor decides to invest in the forex market, he or she must first open up a margin account with a broker."

Bitfinex needs to be [a de facto] broker, without having the corresponding license. This is made possible by having p2p lending, but without the central (cold) wallet under BFX control like the good old times (because CFTC). Problem: neither Investor Bob, nor Lenders Alice [through] Zack, are a licensed broker. And yet the full amount of this "p2p loan" must be readily accessible by BFX (to enter and close positions).
Wat do? (This needs to happen in real time, not "in a bit, once we had time to run it past the suits upstairs" because real time trade engine.)

Read more: How does leverage work in the forex market? | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/forexleverage.asp#ixzz4Gfag38YP
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook

P.S. " proven security methods" for this sort of thing involve third party security audits (which BFX refused), and a license (so don't have to exploit insecure but technically compliant 2-of-3 implementation).

So you are telling me that Finex settled positions via the block chain with these segregated wallets? This doesn't jive with "readily accessible/real time" as confirmations on the block chain take time. If they didn't settle each position via the block chain, but internally or on paper, then why couldn't they use actual security for actual block chain transactions?

P.S. "Proven security methods" only require that they actually be implemented. Third party audits and licenses are only for verification and compliance.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
I'm ok with the idea of only losing 36% with the alternative being losing everything as they go bankrupt with the chance to get maybe 1-2% back after a long lawsuit and fight to get anything.

Promise of 64% of your money back is not the same as 64% of your money back. Count your blessings if you get anything back. The money BFX is spreading around is not theirs to spread. It's their client's money. This seems like a a legal quagmire.

Quote
They say we'll get BitFinex "tokens" which will be turned into shares of BitFinex stock...

Why didn't GOx thik of that, amirite? Those tokens are meaningless. BFX is not a public company, it can't legally issue shares (or tokens, or thigamabobs). It's also bankrupt. The SEC will take them down/shut off their $$$ supply (legacy banks).

P.S. How are you liking your socialized losses? Though totally pointless question, not like you have a choice, you'll eat your strawberries and cream and like it, Comrade Elwar Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386
Viva Ut Vivas
I'm ok with the idea of only losing 36% with the alternative being losing everything as they go bankrupt with the chance to get maybe 1-2% back after a long lawsuit and fight to get anything.

They say we'll get BitFinex "tokens" which will be turned into shares of BitFinex stock...but the key here is the way these are issued. If tokens are not fixed to a percentage of the company that represents the current value of the loss then they can just print tokens like dollars and the value of each token would go away quickly.

If, instead, it is a fixed percentage of BitFinex as the value of the company then I'm ok with that. I'd only lose about 10 bitcoins that are converted to shares in a major Bitcoin exchange which could do well in the future.

I'm in this for the long term so risking 10 bitcoins for exclusive access to owning shares of BitFinex is fine with me. It won't break me and I can hope that over the long term it does well.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
BitGo and BitFinex are both very keen to point out that none of the blame lies with BitGo. Finex apparently had a custom setup with BitGo, unlike any other BitGo customer. [...]
Perhaps there is something else going on and I haven't read about it or it isn't public knowledge?

Jeesh, for people who seem to value outside-the-box thinking, you guys are thinking smack-dab inside the box.
BitGo implementation was used so that BFX could continue p2p lending (needed for leverage trading), without having to commingle the customer funds in a wallet it controlled (reason for the CFTC fine they paid).

So BitGo did exactly what was asked of it, allowing BFX to keep doing what it was already doing, without the need to become a licensed futures exchange.

I don't see how separating wallets by individual depositor requires ignoring proven security methods. Are you suggesting that security and appeasing the CFTC are mutually exclusive?

"Leverage is a loan that is provided to an investor by the broker that is handling his or her forex account. When an investor decides to invest in the forex market, he or she must first open up a margin account with a broker."

Bitfinex needs to be [a de facto] broker, without having the corresponding license. This is made possible by having p2p lending, but without the central (cold) wallet under BFX control like the good old times (because CFTC). Problem: neither Investor Bob, nor Lenders Alice [through] Zack, are a licensed broker. And yet the full amount of this "p2p loan" must be readily accessible by BFX (to enter and close positions).
Wat do? (This needs to happen in real time, not "in a bit, once we had time to run it past the suits upstairs" because real time trade engine.)

Read more: How does leverage work in the forex market? | Investopedia http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/forexleverage.asp#ixzz4Gfag38YP
Follow us: Investopedia on Facebook

P.S. " proven security methods" for this sort of thing involve third party security audits (which BFX refused), and a license (so don't have to exploit insecure but technically compliant 2-of-3 implementation).
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 11299
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
its really TO BAD, that bitgo didnt have some stupid logic saying if bitfinex asks for >1000Coins to be moved reject it.

It seems like a very obvious thing to do. Suspicious activity should trigger a lockdown and require manual intervention to OK it. The system shouldn't just go "yeah, no problem" when somebody asks to empty out half the Bitcoin vault.

Probably most of us here are novices, and even we can think of various solutions that would put checks on these kinds of likely attacks...

I personally believe manual /human intervention should have been triggered for smaller transactions....

So for example, any time that 50 coins or more is requested to be moved from one account at once or anytime that an accumulation of 1000 coins are requested to be moved in less than 30 minutes... maybe not exactly those triggering levels, but some level that is both manageable and safeguarding.  
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
clearly, virtual wallet ... will be always a trap.
trading will be always ... trapped.

legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
This needs a meme...

Bitfinex haircuts users 36%
Bitcoin wallet user not affected Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1012
BitGo and BitFinex are both very keen to point out that none of the blame lies with BitGo. Finex apparently had a custom setup with BitGo, unlike any other BitGo customer. [...]
Perhaps there is something else going on and I haven't read about it or it isn't public knowledge?

Jeesh, for people who seem to value outside-the-box thinking, you guys are thinking smack-dab inside the box.
BitGo implementation was used so that BFX could continue p2p lending (needed for leverage trading), without having to commingle the customer funds in a wallet it controlled (reason for the CFTC fine they paid).

So BitGo did exactly what was asked of it, allowing BFX to keep doing what it was already doing, without the need to become a licensed futures exchange.

I don't see how separating wallets by individual depositor requires ignoring proven security methods. Are you suggesting that security and appeasing the CFTC are mutually exclusive?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1087
Bail-In at bitfinex ...


just goes to show it's those goddamn humans who have to ruin everything despite bitcoin's best efforts. I really hope the bitfinex victims are made whole and then they sue that shithole until it squeals.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Bail-In at bitfinex ...
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-07/first-bitcoin-bail-all-bitfinex-users-lose-36-shared-loss-after-historic-hack

Quote
Bitfinex announced it would pull a page right out of Europe's bank resolution mechanism, saying that all of its users will lose 36% of their deposits after it concluded its review the massive hack, in what is set to be the first ever "bitcoin bail-in."

newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
Not sure about choo choo but the price is certainly recovering from the panic dump after the bfx hack.

BFX buyin' BTC with filthy fiat and ... inferior coins? Wonder what'll happen once they open the floodgates...

It's only Sunday. Lets get this thing rolling again.

https://youtu.be/Q_nFwwjBlEc

Taking a shave off USD deposits was a bold move, tho.

-But I don’t like strawberries and cream.
-Comes the revolution, you’ll eat strawberries and cream. And like it. Socialized losses for everyone, Comrade!

legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
BitGo and BitFinex are both very keen to point out that none of the blame lies with BitGo. Finex apparently had a custom setup with BitGo, unlike any other BitGo customer. [...]
Perhaps there is something else going on and I haven't read about it or it isn't public knowledge?

Jeesh, for people who seem to value outside-the-box thinking, you guys are thinking smack-dab inside the box.
BitGo implementation was used so that BFX could continue p2p lending (needed for leverage trading), without having to commingle the customer funds in a wallet it controlled (reason for the CFTC fine they paid).

So BitGo did exactly what was asked of it, allowing BFX to keep doing what it was already doing, without the need to become a licensed futures exchange.

The 64% thing is brilliant. I hear it's basically about what would come from receivership, minus lawyers and years of litigation. Taking a shave off USD deposits was a bold move, tho.
legendary
Activity: 4200
Merit: 4887
You're never too old to think young.
Good morning Bitcoinland.

I see the recovery from last week's fiasco is continuing nicely. Over $600 according to Bitcoinaverage.

It's only Sunday. Lets get this thing rolling again.

Hope everyone bought last week. It was pretty much a no-brainer.
legendary
Activity: 3556
Merit: 9709
#1 VIP Crypto Casino
Choo Choo?

No?

 Undecided

Closing in on 600.

Not sure about choo choo but the price is certainly recovering from the panic dump after the bfx hack. It always would do though, sure it's unfortunate people got burnt but it's an unlicensed exchange that had the problem. No reason for people to lose faith in bitcoin.
hero member
Activity: 737
Merit: 500
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
BitGo and BitFinex are both very keen to point out that none of the blame lies with BitGo. Finex apparently had a custom setup with BitGo, unlike any other BitGo customer. [...]
Perhaps there is something else going on and I haven't read about it or it isn't public knowledge?

Jeesh, for people who seem to value outside-the-box thinking, you guys are thinking smack-dab inside the box.
BitGo implementation was used so that BFX could continue p2p lending (needed for leverage trading), without having to commingle the customer funds in a wallet it controlled (reason for the CFTC fine they paid).

So BitGo did exactly what was asked of it, allowing BFX to keep doing what it was already doing, without the need to become a licensed futures exchange.
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 1422
Hey Jimbo,
Don't you saw a small nice spike up?
I'm currently seeing  $ 585.80  on Coinbase

Looking good. It seems the bitfinex nightmare is withering away

Yes. The spike was starting as I was typing. When I started to type my post it was about $580 on Bitstamp and $586 on Bitcoinaverage.

I had a flurry of phone calls and visitors and then I check back and they're both up $5.

Yes I think the Finex panic is done. I'm waiting to see what happens when the banks open after the weekend. I'm guessing an influx of fiat at the exchanges and a spike upward.

I agree. I think tomorrow we'll see another nice trend. We're set to go up. Even though Bitfinex story might not seem finished.
Anyway, we're on the way up
legendary
Activity: 2833
Merit: 1851
In order to dump coins one must have coins
Do we know if the process was totally automated? Was no one looking at a screen at BitGawn?
No official word, but looks like it was totally automated and they were just rubber stamping everything that they got from finex.

Wounder if hax0r knew that ahead or was surprised as everyone else when BitGone just kept signing off on everything s/he threw at it and no withdrawal limits kicked in  Roll Eyes

2% of BTC gone oh they probably have it set at 5
5% huh high withdrawal limit
10% are you kidding me BitGone is still signing transactions
25%  i must be on testnet  Huh
50% LOLs
60% That's just sad, it's like kicking a person on the floor, i'm just gonna stop here.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
Do we know if the process was totally automated? Was no one looking at a screen at BitGawn?
legendary
Activity: 2833
Merit: 1851
In order to dump coins one must have coins
So far sounds to me like it's an implementation error. BFX forgot to check the "Limit maximum daily withdrawals to 5%" checkbox during account set up with BitGone 

Well, BitGo's website states that they are "The leader in blockchain security" along with "100% secure". If their job is to secure bitcoins, it shouldn't matter how badly the customer tries to screw up, they should still secure the coins!

If I take my car to a garage and tell them to replace the brake pads with eight blocks of sharp cheddar cheese, they had better talk me out of it or refuse entirely. Especially if they are "The leader in automotive safety" and "100% safe".

Why would BitGo, a company which prides itself on securing bitcoins, let one of their customers choose a solution with no security at all? They should have either had precautions in place or, if they couldn't provide the kind of service that Finex desired, they should have turned them away as a customer explaining that their proposed solution is insecure.

It's because I was under the impression the boxes (addresses) were all drained individually. What kind of daily withdrawal limit woulda prevented that?

The one where one customer isn't allowed to withdraw 1%ish of all the bitcoins in existence without some kind of flag going up. LOL!

Even if they were individual addresses, they all belonged to the same customer: Finex.


Agree, there should have been some baseline security implementation which cannot be overridden before they slap their name on it. And the maximum daily % should be on the top of that list
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