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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 19560. (Read 26609705 times)

legendary
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Quote from: smooth link=topic=178336.msg13603757#msg136037
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Not at all. JorgeStolfi was saying that if you settle to the Bitcoin blockchain only 1/10000 of your tx then you might as well not do it at all and use a fiat LN system. I'm saying that at 1/10000 of your tx, the cost of using real Bitcoin (even with, hypothetically, expensive BTC transactions) would be so low there is no reason not to just stay with Bitcoin. I don't think people will want fiat LN.

Doesn't make much sense. While 1/10000 of the transaction represents only 0.01% of the customer's transaction cost, it represents 100% of the tranasaction aggregator's cost - and that is the party tasked with selecting the ultimate settlement network.

And what makes the customer choose that aggregator? LN nodes are permissionless and will compete on the basis of the attributes of their service offering (reliability,etc.). Being collateralized or not is a differentiator that will form the basis of customers' decisions over which network/nodes to use.

Saying that customers will choose uncollateralized providers given the choice is equivalent to saying they don''t want Bitcoin, which may be the case.

With the indirection of the aggregator in between, I don't think most customers will give it a second thought. Quick - what actual bank underwrites your 'Best Buy' or 'Frontier Airlines' credit card?
legendary
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I've gone from being confused about opt-in RBF to sort of indifferent. Theymos may have seduced me with his charms tho.

You may wish to ponder his assertion that it is unlikely that anyone will customize a client to provide pushbutton 'rescind payment' abilities. If we have learned anything about script kiddies, it is that there are plenty who destroy only for the lulz of watching the world burn.
legendary
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Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
According to BitcoinHistory, a hardfork occurred March 12, 2013.

And some of us watched -- fascinated -- as it unfolded in real time.


hahahaha...

I just have to read about some of these various phenomena in the history books and hear from some of you peeps in the forums (and maybe some day I will meet more people in real life - not so many people in my real life have bitcoin backgrounds).

In essence in early 2013, I was too busy gazing at my own navel and other aspects of my own real life, and even though I had heard the word bitcoin several times before, the reality of the matter is that to the best of my recollection, I did not really notice any meaningful live details about bitcoin until sometime in November 2013.....

Seems that cannot go back in time and change personal experiences, because I have already kept attempting to drudge up in my own memory what I knew or recall hearing about bitcoin before November 2013, and really, there is no real substance of any memory there... so, it is what it is... no?
legendary
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What kind of notice could/would/will we expect?

I've got coins spread across various devices, forms of storage etc. I don't fancy being left with a load of shitcoins (whichever becomes the defeated chain).

Acid rain, dogs eating cats...chaos everywhere.

 Shocked

Points off for missing the chance of a Ghostbusters reference.

Hate to bust your chops on this, but that would be 'dogs and cats... _living_ together...'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3ZOKDmorj0
legendary
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doesn't bitfinex only hold some kind of custodial key so that owners can remain in control of their BTC while holding a balance on bitfinex?

Don't know. If so, then how could those BTC be lent to others?

I have stayed away from BFX all these years, as its entire biz model seems predicated upon systemic risk of fractional reserve moral hazard. What am I missing?
legendary
Activity: 3920
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Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
I'd advise trader here to secure their long position.

We have consensus.


When did this royal "we" come to this result?

Should I act quickly, or do I have a few days of down before the up comes?

Not long ago.

I'd advise you act quickly.  Wink


Well, maybe then I should stop waiting for $372, and buy a little more at $374...  because surely anything below $392 is going to seem to be a bargain...  hahahaha..
legendary
Activity: 3080
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According to BitcoinHistory, a hardfork occurred March 12, 2013.

And some of us watched -- fascinated -- as it unfolded in real time.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 11299
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
I have difficulties understanding how someone who is trying to come off as an academic can get so side tracked with attempts at irrelevant digs into attempts to find bad motives and assertions that individuals are simple and driven by narrow agendas. 

The personalities in "bitcon space" are fascinating, quite unlike those of other communities I have known in the past 30+ years of forum surfing.  Most in a negative way, unfortunately.  People like Mark Karpelès, Danny Brewster, the BFL gang, the Bitcoin Foundation, and many other far too numerous to list. 

I cannot avoid taking sides in the block size limit war.  I am not exactly a fan of Mike and Gavin, but on the other hand I cannot find anything good to say about the Blocstream guys.  Not about character, not about ethics, not about respect for the project and its users, not even about competence.  Bankruptcy is the least they deserve.

A couple days ago, Luke-Jr trolled BitcoinClassic by posting a pull request that would change the PoW algorithm to make it impossible to mine with ASICs.  I then proposed that the Core devs do that on Core.  It was meant to be a just counter-trolling.  But it seems that Greg and Luke-Jr are seriously dreaming the option of doing just that in case the miners switch to Classic.  It is Idiocracy II -- but with bitcoin!


I consider myself to be really fucking skeptical about people and not trusting them to be generous to me without having various selfish motives; however, at the same time, if I sit down with anyone, I consider that people generally are attempting to make various contributions to society beyond their selfish motives, and that both selfish motives and contribution can live side by side and simultaneously.

In other words, if you actually sit down with people or hear them out in various ways, they are not all trying to get ahead by screwing everyone else like you seem to attribute to a large majority of public bitcoin figures. 

Maybe we can draw an analogy with cops?  Cops have a lot of power, and surely some police forces are more corrupt than others, but frequently, if they are getting paid a decent salary, for example in the USA, then less than a few percent of them are going to be with bad motives, even though frequently when bad incidents are occurring, a larger majority are painted as corrupt.

Surely, sometimes we can agree that some of the folks are just evil or they have become evil, and Karpeles may be one of those figures, but even though Charlie Shrem has been convicted, he shouldn't necessarily be considered as evil.. .and even Brock Pierce has been accused of a lot of negative things, but he generally seems to have a large number of contributions to bitcoin.  Maybe it's not easy to get caught up in various personalities because I generally do not want to get caught up in that and I prefer to see ideas and contributions, and yes, if there comes out some specific facts that may demonstrate that someone is not acting in good faith, such as Mike Hearn's public temper tantrum, then his personal motives may become an issue in my thinking about whether s/he is acting in good faith to contribute rather than destroy.

And, yes, I have some bias in that I want bitcoin to succeed in a variety of ways, and not only because of my own probable financial gain in its success but also because I believe that bitcoin has a lot to offer in a variety of ways that are currently unknown and on a weekly basis, i am still learning about bitcoin and its variety of contributions towards making a more interesting world.


legendary
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Unlimited is a bit of a wildcard as it's designed to follow the network.

Close. But omits illustrative detail. BU block size limit is whatever the emergent consensus of the entire network is, configured by means of each user setting their own block size limit value.
legendary
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Is SegWit really just an ugly hack to accommodate LN? Is this true? Because nobody knows if anybody will use LN yet...

No. It fixes transaction malleability. Stupid.

Which killed Mt Gox.

ha. haha. Haha. HahaHa. HaHa HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Ha.

Quote
Are you saying you want more Mt Goxes? And dead puppies?

Oh - you had me going there for a bit.
legendary
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Quote
People need to do a bank run in every exchange (maybe even online wallets too) well before we reach the point of the hard fork, to ensure that they have control of their BTCs.

AlexGR raises an excellent point. If there is an upcoming contentious hardfork scheduled then the first things people are going to do is withdraw ALL their coins off the exchanges and out of any custodial services.

To what end?

Every coin that they withdraw before the fork ends up being one coin on each chain after the fork. If they leave one coin on the exchange, there is likely no existing contractual agreement that the exchange might grant them back one coin on chain A, while keeping the one coin on chain B for itself.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 531
Crypto is King.
OH TEH NOEZ CORE GETTIN REKT FOR REAL DIS TIME


sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
He's talking about this...

Quote
[23:26] thats probably still really tight, but I'd say at least a year
[23:27] BlueMatt: I agree
[23:27] Then we are talking something not happen until 2017

CONSENSUS IS FORMING

FORK CLASSIC

#REKT


But neglects to give what Chun said earlier.  Cheesy


hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
I'd advise trader here to secure their long position.

We have consensus.


When did this royal "we" come to this result?

Should I act quickly, or do I have a few days of down before the up comes?

Not long ago.

I'd advise you act quickly.  Wink
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
Doesn't make much sense. While 1/10000 of the transaction represents only 0.01% of the [ LN ] customer's transaction cost, it represents 100% of the tranasaction aggregator's cost - and that is the party tasked with selecting the ultimate settlement network.

It is not clear whether the USD (or BTC) volume of the settlement traffic will be 100% of the USD (or BTC) volume of LN payments.  IIUC, the LN will not only aggregate payments but will also cancel opposite or circular payments.  Or maybe not, not sure.

Settlements between banks have lots of cancellation, so they are much less than the total volume of interbank bank wires issued by clients.  It would be a shame if the LN cannot not do that
hero member
Activity: 910
Merit: 1003
I have difficulties understanding how someone who is trying to come off as an academic can get so side tracked with attempts at irrelevant digs into attempts to find bad motives and assertions that individuals are simple and driven by narrow agendas.  

The personalities in "bitcon space" are fascinating, quite unlike those of other communities I have known in the past 30+ years of forum surfing.  Most in a negative way, unfortunately.  People like Mark Karpelès, Danny Brewster, the BFL gang, the Bitcoin Foundation, and many other far too numerous to list.  

I cannot avoid taking sides in the block size limit war.  I am not exactly a fan of Mike and Gavin, but on the other hand I cannot find anything good to say about the Blocstream guys.  Not about character, not about ethics, not about respect for the project and its users, not even about competence.  Bankruptcy is the least they deserve.

A couple days ago, Luke-Jr trolled BitcoinClassic by posting a pull request that would change the PoW algorithm to make it impossible to mine with ASICs.  I then proposed that the Core devs do that on Core.  It was meant to be a just counter-trolling.  But it seems that Greg and Luke-Jr are seriously dreaming the option of doing just that in case the miners switch to Classic.  It is Idiocracy II -- but with bitcoin!
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Conversely 1:10000 is so close to 0:10000 that you might as well just leave it on the Bitcoin blockchain. The benefit of not doing so would be negligible.

No. Makes no sense whatsoever.

True, the choice of settlement platform is leveraged 10,000:1 in this scenario for the transacting party. As such, it probably does not much matter to the transaction party whether the underlying settlement platform is Bitcoin or a vastly cheaper alt.

It certainly does matter to the customer. Customers will chose a BTC LN over an alt LN for the same reasons they (usually) choose BTC over alts. Those are well known so I will not repeat them.

Regarding the idea of a completely uncollateralized fiat payment network, I already answered that, twice. If people want that they will just use existing fiat networks. LN offers nothing special to them at all (nor does Bitcoin in any form, or alts).


legendary
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1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
Hum, so... 144*7=1008 or approx one week of block size data



Not really sure what to make of that. About 50 (around 5%) empty blocks, 220 (around 20%) full blocks and a fairly boring distribution over the rest of the sizes with some rather odd spikes at 25%, 75%, 93% and 95%. Of these, the 75% has an obvious explanation. I wonder if the others are pool specific.
legendary
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hero member
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Crypto is King.
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