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Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 28883. (Read 26609914 times)

hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
Moderator
http://mark-karpeles.com/m.php?page=notable

Wow. Mark is No.1  of the Top 5000 worst traders on Gox
Roger Ver No.1 of the best 5000 ( I´m really sorry for his 500BTC loss, considerin that he bought another 97000 there  Cheesy )
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
Stolfi, are you DDOSing the forum again? Look, I know you're an ultrabear but DDOSing the forum is just not cricket.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
BTW, when i said JPM was kinda on the road to make their own coin, i supposed it should be something upon which they will build their whole new transaction system (as their banking system is just outdated since the late 50s). so it could be internally driven and wouldnt look as another altcoin as we currently know them. But the fact is that they clearly plan not to do so over the existing bitcoin. they will want to take bitcoiners out of the picture as "early adopters hippies" and certainly not share a piece of the cryptographic cake.

dunnow if i made myself clear but thats just my "simple" understanding of it  Undecided

A ripple killer.

dont know excatly what ripple is all about but banks may end up buying it out and build their system upon it. sooo maybe ripple isnt a bad investment after all?!  Shocked
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 1823
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
Agreed.... In the end, these kind of endeavors are likely to bring more attention and credibility to bitcoin... even though they may seem to mimic or compete. 

Bitcoin will likely prevail - yet, we may want to see how these various competitive cryptos play out... and these additional cryptos will likely create hype and even pump and dump opportunities... for day traders.

Agreed. Likely there is even a role for these private currencies, much as there is for Amazon gift cards. They soon hit issues of scale, however.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1030
Sine secretum non libertas
BTW, when i said JPM was kinda on the road to make their own coin, i supposed it should be something upon which they will build their whole new transaction system (as their banking system is just outdated since the late 50s). so it could be internally driven and wouldnt look as another altcoin as we currently know them. But the fact is that they clearly plan not to do so over the existing bitcoin. they will want to take bitcoiners out of the picture as "early adopters hippies" and certainly not share a piece of the cryptographic cake.

dunnow if i made myself clear but thats just my "simple" understanding of it  Undecided

A ripple killer.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Bitcoin needs more than wall street to soar to new irrational heights. It needs a Stratton Oakmont.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratton_Oakmont

Belfort no buy bitcom. Beltfort SMART = he buy LTC
Belfort sell LTC best. caused by not anonymous creator, open develop scrypt, better past story with NO drugs and hookers trade
LTC take over bitcom

dont think Belfort would have been interested in a hooker and drug free currency/system Grin

Belfort NO like hooker money. Belfort want cleaner money = more money. then buy hooker with money.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin needs more than wall street to soar to new irrational heights. It needs a Stratton Oakmont.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratton_Oakmont

Belfort no buy bitcom. Beltfort SMART = he buy LTC
Belfort sell LTC best. caused by not anonymous creator, open develop scrypt, better past story with NO drugs and hookers trade
LTC take over bitcom

dont think Belfort would have been interested in a hooker and drug free currency/system Grin
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
Bitcoin needs more than wall street to soar to new irrational heights. It needs a Stratton Oakmont.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratton_Oakmont

Belfort no buy bitcom. Beltfort SMART = he buy LTC
Belfort sell LTC best. caused by not anonymous creator, open develop scrypt, better past story with NO drugs and hookers trade
LTC take over bitcom
newbie
Activity: 34
Merit: 0

A voluntary society cannot be designed at all. It will be emergent. When a critical mass of people realize that the rules we tell children to live by (namely don't hurt people, don't mess with their stuff, and keep your promises) should be applied across the board, and that no other general rules are necessary, then such a society will form.

There can be no formula for dealing with people in need. As soon as such a formula is known, most of the marginally needy and some of the non-needy attempt to game the system. Subsidizing poverty creates more poverty. The best way to deal with those in need is on an individual case-by-case basis. It's too important of a problem to be left to monopolists. Concrete answers are wrong answers.

Great post,
Just wanted to say that
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
selling pressure at low 640's looks very high, every time it's past 640, medium size asks keep popping up.  May be quite a while before the seller runs out of coins.  Thursday is traditionally the most bullish day of the week, see if we can make it to 675, otherwise, I see it go back down to 600 by Monday.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
Quote
I'm still lacking answers on the whole "what if I decide to get a large crew together to violently take your shit" argument I presented earlier, as well.{/quote]

That's the beauty of decentralization. The answer is "I will resist you in ways you won't expect."
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1002
Bitcoin needs more than wall street to soar to new irrational heights. It needs a Stratton Oakmont.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratton_Oakmont

ahah! wolf of wall street style uh? Roll Eyes






BTW, when i said JPM was kinda on the road to make their own coin, i supposed it should be something upon which they will build their whole new transaction system (as their banking system is just outdated since the late 50s). so it could be internally driven and wouldnt look as another altcoin as we currently know them. But the fact is that they clearly plan not to do so over the existing bitcoin. they will want to take bitcoiners out of the picture as "early adopters hippies" and certainly not share a piece of the cryptographic cake.

dunnow if i made myself clear but thats just my "simple" understanding of it  Undecided
hero member
Activity: 531
Merit: 501
insight: friend of mine working in JP Morgan in London also confirmed they are kinda elaborating their own coin as we speak..  Undecided

They may succeed with novices but only until the banks fuck it up somehow, at which point people will begin to understand why they should support a coin not backed by any company/cartel.


Agreed.... In the end, these kind of endeavors are likely to bring more attention and credibility to bitcoin... even though they may seem to mimic or compete. 

Bitcoin will likely prevail - yet, we may want to see how these various competitive cryptos play out... and these additional cryptos will likely create hype and even pump and dump opportunities... for day traders.

Yes you're probably right. But a centralized bitcoin clone kind of defeats the purpose. Who will mine? JPMorgan? The public? A "trusted" central banker type entity? What if they need to change the rules, will they just hard fork it forcing everyone along? Sounds like a total disaster in the making.

A Bitcoin like currency issued by a business or governing body makes no sense and will never happen. Bitcoin only works because there's nobody in charge and there's no guarantees. If a currency came out "backed" by a business then that business would want to have very firm control over how it was used. JPMorgan wouldn't be too happy about people using JPMorganCoin for kiddie porn or ransoms. Also by the saying that they "back" it they would have to subsidise it somehow, possibly by guaranteeing that it can be exchanged for something. That's quite a big financial commitment to uphold. Also if the company is issuing the currency why go to the bother of mining. They could just issue it in exchange for cash. I think the nearest any company comes to a digital currency will be some kind of E-Gold copy where all users have full KYC checks. Doesn't sound very exciting.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
bitcom deadening... LTC much potential
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
I'm looking for better definition on where you stand.

Alright, let's take this further: the argument is that we would support the poor through voluntary charity, yes? Now let's say after 10 years, charity turns out to be woefully inadequate. Let's assume that -- while the world has not devolved into chaos and anarchy as a result of a lack of government -- that some are suffering because not everything went as planned. There's slums with no police protection because everyone that lives in the neighborhood can't afford it. How do we approach that? Are some things up for socialization, or is it all strictly no go, no budge?

Sure, the poor ain't doing so hot right now, but in order for the change to be worth it, it's not enough to be different. It's got to be better, and noticeably so. The problem is better is subjective, and not everyone will agree on, let alone know, what better really is.

Oh, I'm fairly happy to take things piecemeal. If things don't appear to be working, back off and adjust approach. Obviously, I believe things would not tend to end up that way (though government action has created a huge underclass that would have to be accounted for) but I'm not one for big schemes that have to be implemented in one fell swoop (just look at Obamacare for how that kind of thing goes).

Basically I see it like a big game of Jenga. There are some pieces which can be taken easily and others which require the removal of other pieces before they can be taken without collapsing the whole tower. Fortunately, almost every step that is taken to improve freedom should make the next one easier.

Okay, so you're willing to take things piece-meal. Great, but you didn't provide any solution to the problem. Pretend you're taking things piece-meal, and this information has just come up. I'm personally not the type who is comfortable with "crossing that bridge when you come to it."

For that matter, what if there are no solutions to the problems that come up? What if it turns out that, for most, your idea is, in fact, a dismal failure? Or what if it's not even possible, for example forms of government start popping up because that's what people want. What if all these small governments start warring with each other? How do we set up an army to fight off an invasion from a country who doesn't share our approach? All of these are questions that need to be addressed before you take the leap.

I'm still lacking answers on the whole "what if I decide to get a large crew together to violently take your shit" argument I presented earlier, as well. That's a general statement to all who agree with you, not specifically directed at you. You can say all you want "it won't happen," but it will. There will always be monsters in this world who will take full advantage of whatever situation they are put in. It's just a question of how widespread it will be.

I have a lot of questions for libertarians that I want answered. I've been asking them for years. Most of them still haven't been answered. I thought that might change here, but I'm starting to lose hope and am almost to the point of writing it off as another lost cause.


I admire your persistence and your formulations of questions for the libertarians, and you are generally fairly polite in your presentation of various issues and various scenarios, yet it should be clear that trying to get concrete answers from the no government folks is an exercise in futility. 

It may be that they have an impossible task to describe some future society b/c no one person or group of libertarians are likely to be able to really design some community arrangement that adequately accounts for the variety of stakeholders (without involving some of the various stakeholders in the process).... which frequently causes the libertarians to speculate or to propose fairly specific plans that in fact have NOT been thought through very well.   

A voluntary society cannot be designed at all. It will be emergent. When a critical mass of people realize that the rules we tell children to live by (namely don't hurt people, don't mess with their stuff, and keep your promises) should be applied across the board, and that no other general rules are necessary, then such a society will form.

There can be no formula for dealing with people in need. As soon as such a formula is known, most of the marginally needy and some of the non-needy attempt to game the system. Subsidizing poverty creates more poverty. The best way to deal with those in need is on an individual case-by-case basis. It's too important of a problem to be left to monopolists. Concrete answers are wrong answers.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Ultranode
Bitcoin needs more than wall street to soar to new irrational heights. It needs a Stratton Oakmont.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratton_Oakmont
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
insight: friend of mine working in JP Morgan in London also confirmed they are kinda elaborating their own coin as we speak..  Undecided

They may succeed with novices but only until the banks fuck it up somehow, at which point people will begin to understand why they should support a coin not backed by any company/cartel.


Agreed.... In the end, these kind of endeavors are likely to bring more attention and credibility to bitcoin... even though they may seem to mimic or compete. 

Bitcoin will likely prevail - yet, we may want to see how these various competitive cryptos play out... and these additional cryptos will likely create hype and even pump and dump opportunities... for day traders.

Yes you're probably right. But a centralized bitcoin clone kind of defeats the purpose. Who will mine? JPMorgan? The public? A "trusted" central banker type entity? What if they need to change the rules, will they just hard fork it forcing everyone along? Sounds like a total disaster in the making.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 11299
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
insight: friend of mine working in JP Morgan in London also confirmed they are kinda elaborating their own coin as we speak..  Undecided

They may succeed with novices but only until the banks fuck it up somehow, at which point people will begin to understand why they should support a coin not backed by any company/cartel.


Agreed.... In the end, these kind of endeavors are likely to bring more attention and credibility to bitcoin... even though they may seem to mimic or compete. 

Bitcoin will likely prevail - yet, we may want to see how these various competitive cryptos play out... and these additional cryptos will likely create hype and even pump and dump opportunities... for day traders.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 11299
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
I'm looking for better definition on where you stand.

Alright, let's take this further: the argument is that we would support the poor through voluntary charity, yes? Now let's say after 10 years, charity turns out to be woefully inadequate. Let's assume that -- while the world has not devolved into chaos and anarchy as a result of a lack of government -- that some are suffering because not everything went as planned. There's slums with no police protection because everyone that lives in the neighborhood can't afford it. How do we approach that? Are some things up for socialization, or is it all strictly no go, no budge?

Sure, the poor ain't doing so hot right now, but in order for the change to be worth it, it's not enough to be different. It's got to be better, and noticeably so. The problem is better is subjective, and not everyone will agree on, let alone know, what better really is.

Oh, I'm fairly happy to take things piecemeal. If things don't appear to be working, back off and adjust approach. Obviously, I believe things would not tend to end up that way (though government action has created a huge underclass that would have to be accounted for) but I'm not one for big schemes that have to be implemented in one fell swoop (just look at Obamacare for how that kind of thing goes).

Basically I see it like a big game of Jenga. There are some pieces which can be taken easily and others which require the removal of other pieces before they can be taken without collapsing the whole tower. Fortunately, almost every step that is taken to improve freedom should make the next one easier.

Okay, so you're willing to take things piece-meal. Great, but you didn't provide any solution to the problem. Pretend you're taking things piece-meal, and this information has just come up. I'm personally not the type who is comfortable with "crossing that bridge when you come to it."

For that matter, what if there are no solutions to the problems that come up? What if it turns out that, for most, your idea is, in fact, a dismal failure? Or what if it's not even possible, for example forms of government start popping up because that's what people want. What if all these small governments start warring with each other? How do we set up an army to fight off an invasion from a country who doesn't share our approach? All of these are questions that need to be addressed before you take the leap.

I'm still lacking answers on the whole "what if I decide to get a large crew together to violently take your shit" argument I presented earlier, as well. That's a general statement to all who agree with you, not specifically directed at you. You can say all you want "it won't happen," but it will. There will always be monsters in this world who will take full advantage of whatever situation they are put in. It's just a question of how widespread it will be.

I have a lot of questions for libertarians that I want answered. I've been asking them for years. Most of them still haven't been answered. I thought that might change here, but I'm starting to lose hope and am almost to the point of writing it off as another lost cause.


I admire your persistence and your formulations of questions for the libertarians, and you are generally fairly polite in your presentation of various issues and various scenarios, yet it should be clear that trying to get concrete answers from the no government folks is an exercise in futility. 

It may be that they have an impossible task to describe some future society b/c no one person or group of libertarians are likely to be able to really design some community arrangement that adequately accounts for the variety of stakeholders (without involving some of the various stakeholders in the process).... which frequently causes the libertarians to speculate or to propose fairly specific plans that in fact have NOT been thought through very well.   



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