600 or so coins dumped. Small potatoes. 
Why does this feel like 1 individual doing this?
Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 30608. (Read 26710938 times)
December 30, 2013, 11:28:55 PM
Why does this feel like 1 individual doing this?
December 30, 2013, 11:20:00 PM
600 or so coins dumped. Small potatoes.
December 30, 2013, 11:19:32 PM
Mtgox 500 support wall at $781 was obliterated instantly.
December 30, 2013, 11:16:42 PM
It [fraud] also requires the deception to be practiced "in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain." This second half is one thing that makes it different from a "hoax."
Of course this merely pushes the question back a square: What is unfair?
December 30, 2013, 10:23:48 PM
monetary economics is the only sphere of human activity immune to technological improvement.
That's a bold statement. Never really thought about it that way, but I'm not so sure I agree..
Where is it coming from? Could you explain it?
I would, intuitively and with not enough knowledge, say that technological improvement should somehow positively affect monetary economics. Why not?
Ah. You misread my post. I am summarizing Krugman's latest view - and disagree with it.
December 30, 2013, 09:52:42 PM
what a year it's been 
December 30, 2013, 09:49:05 PM
MtGox
Bitstamp
BTCChina
24 hour Volume
Bitstamp
BTCChina
24 hour Volume
December 30, 2013, 09:47:28 PM
And, your point?
Sorry, I should have been more explicit, Walsoraj.
You said that "anything calculated to mislead others is fraudulent," and later asked what courts would disagree. I was pointing out (with my quote from Wikipedia [likely inline with Western courts]) that your definition was incomplete. It also requires the deception to be practiced "in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain." This second half is one thing that makes it different from a "hoax."
It's also interesting the response of pheonix1, who believes that Karma is the highest court. I think he makes a good point, perhaps encouraging us to open our eyes a bit wider for the interesting future that lays ahead.
December 30, 2013, 09:41:30 PM
@sitarow: hello i was just wondering, what do you use to have such a layout resuming so much graphs? thx.
December 30, 2013, 09:34:06 PM
December 30, 2013, 09:30:18 PM
China is what the current price manipulation is about.
People wanted to get out without selling in china when no new money was coming in.
Once a total crash in China looked likely, the coins were bought off exchange in volume - but some assets were used to keep China prices 'up' so that the world market was confident enough, to stay high enough, to gradually sell off coin elsewhere at good prices without crashing everything to hell.
To keep the price up on BTCC is easy with the minimal volume there.
There is no real basis for the price staying so high, there is no more money coming in.
Once all the big Chinese money is out (in coins) with help from the big guys in other markets, then eventually the support operation will have to slow.
By then of course new money may be in and able to take over supporting the price - no one wants collapse.
My two cents worth.
Disclosure: I am 'hodling' less BTC and certainly less alts than I usually do, I don't think the market price is being decided by normal factors and I do think it is being temporarily managed.
And temporarily is until the end of Jan - max.
I think this particular manipulation is a short term plan, and all about China: managed withdrawal.
Until end of Jan, I am watching carefully and staying cautious.
People wanted to get out without selling in china when no new money was coming in.
Once a total crash in China looked likely, the coins were bought off exchange in volume - but some assets were used to keep China prices 'up' so that the world market was confident enough, to stay high enough, to gradually sell off coin elsewhere at good prices without crashing everything to hell.
To keep the price up on BTCC is easy with the minimal volume there.
There is no real basis for the price staying so high, there is no more money coming in.
Once all the big Chinese money is out (in coins) with help from the big guys in other markets, then eventually the support operation will have to slow.
By then of course new money may be in and able to take over supporting the price - no one wants collapse.
My two cents worth.
Disclosure: I am 'hodling' less BTC and certainly less alts than I usually do, I don't think the market price is being decided by normal factors and I do think it is being temporarily managed.
And temporarily is until the end of Jan - max.
I think this particular manipulation is a short term plan, and all about China: managed withdrawal.
Until end of Jan, I am watching carefully and staying cautious.
December 30, 2013, 09:29:28 PM
And then, since your definition is based on someone's calculation to mislead who is the final arbtrar of intent?
The court is the final arbitrator, you moron.
My definition is also shared by the court.
There are higher 'courts' than the ones you speak of
Which court disagrees with my definition of fraud?
How Jarosaw defined fraud:
Quote from: Walsoraj
Anything calculated to mislead others is fraudulent.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud
Fraud is a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain (adjectival form fraudulent; to defraud is the verb). As a legal construct, fraud is both a civil wrong (i.e., a fraud victim may sue the fraud perpetrator to avoid the fraud and/or recover monetary compensation) and a criminal wrong (i.e., a fraud perpetrator may be prosecuted and imprisoned by governmental authorities). Defrauding people or organizations of money or valuables is the usual purpose of fraud, but it sometimes instead involves obtaining benefits without actually depriving anyone of money or valuables, such as obtaining a drivers license by way of false statements made in an application for the same.
A hoax is a distinct concept that involves deception without the intention of gain or of damaging or depriving the victim.
And, your point?
Calculated implies deliberation. Misleading others is a form of deception. So, my definition, if anything, is too narrow.
Idiot.
December 30, 2013, 09:27:58 PM
And then, since your definition is based on someone's calculation to mislead who is the final arbtrar of intent?
The court is the final arbitrator, you moron.
My definition is also shared by the court.
There are higher 'courts' than the ones you speak of
Which court disagrees with my definition of fraud?
How Walsoraj defined fraud:
Quote from: Walsoraj
Anything calculated to mislead others is fraudulent.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud
Fraud is a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain (adjectival form fraudulent; to defraud is the verb). As a legal construct, fraud is both a civil wrong (i.e., a fraud victim may sue the fraud perpetrator to avoid the fraud and/or recover monetary compensation) and a criminal wrong (i.e., a fraud perpetrator may be prosecuted and imprisoned by governmental authorities). Defrauding people or organizations of money or valuables is the usual purpose of fraud, but it sometimes instead involves obtaining benefits without actually depriving anyone of money or valuables, such as obtaining a drivers license by way of false statements made in an application for the same.
A hoax is a distinct concept that involves deception without the intention of gain or of damaging or depriving the victim.
December 30, 2013, 09:22:17 PM
And then, since your definition is based on someone's calculation to mislead who is the final arbtrar of intent?
The court is the final arbitrator, you moron.
My definition is also shared by the court.
There are higher 'courts' than the ones you speak of
Which court disagrees with my definition of fraud?
December 30, 2013, 09:19:52 PM
And then, since your definition is based on someone's calculation to mislead who is the final arbtrar of intent?
The court is the final arbitrator, you moron.
My definition is also shared by the court.
There are higher 'courts' than the ones you speak of
December 30, 2013, 09:16:48 PM
Bitcoin exchanges that are not controlled or regulated could be the major problem for bitcoin's future. Think about it - you need a site, bank account(s) for deposits/withdrawals, decent SW (engine, bots, etc.) and a relatively small amount of coins (for start). Everything else you can fake - volume, trades, transactions between accounts. You (your SW actually) could trade all day, buy/sell thousands of coins for millions of dollars without a single $ spent, push price up or down - wherever you want, and just collect the money/coins that suckers (regular people, investors, traders, speculators, miners, etc.) lost because of your actions.
And that makes me sick
And that makes me sick
December 30, 2013, 09:15:02 PM
And then, since your definition is based on someone's calculation to mislead who is the final arbtrar of intent?
The court is the final arbitrator, you moron.
My definition is also shared by the court.
December 30, 2013, 09:02:30 PM
December 30, 2013, 09:00:33 PM
But is not your concept extremely broad? Would not that mean that every used-car salesmen who pushes a bit too hard is fraudulent?
If he lies about mileage and/or general condition of a car, of course he is a fraudster December 30, 2013, 08:56:04 PM
Examples of fraudulent market manipulation:
....
LOL. All of the above are regular activities in bitcoin land.
....
LOL. All of the above are regular activities in bitcoin land.
We've already defined "market manipulation" and I think most people here have agreed. Many of the trading activities you just posted have already been mentioned as manipulation, and I think most people also agree that manipulation occurs to some extent in the bitcoin market.
The next question is "what is fraud"? It seems your definition is:
Quote from: Walsoraj
Anything calculated to mislead others is fraudulent.
You mentioned that:
Quote from: Walsoraj
Your concept of fraud is stupidly narrow
But is not your concept extremely broad? Would not that mean that every used-car salesmen who pushes a bit too hard is fraudulent? Would not that mean that any time a cougar pretends to like your personality (for some ulterior motive) that that's fraud? Would not that mean that when I thank my mom for the great Christmas present, with a big smile and a hug (despite the fact that I already had two of these things [which I politely fail to mention]) that I am engaged in fraud?
And then, since your definition is based on someone's calculation to mislead who is the final arbtrar of intent?
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