Author

Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion - page 33108. (Read 26465816 times)

legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
That is pretty much consistent with EW analysis, isn't it? I mean, the bottom of wave 4 (bottom post-2013 crash) is aprox. the top of wave 1 (2011 bubble high), isn't it?
[...]
As I said earlier I arrived to the same conclusion using my very own "common sense" and analysis after April, 10th - but now I believe I was mistaken.

I know close to nothing about EW analysis. In any case, I don't think we'll fall back to 50, and certainly not sub-30. I can see us going back to 60-80, though, I admit :/
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
nope.
log(x+1) is right for this data, that's how I'm able to fit a straight line to it and make a valid estimate of the underlying trend to date. 

Do you really mean:

log(x+1)

as in

log_(n)(x+1), where x = USD/btc, and n is the base you chose? If so, maybe that's a technique used in statistical modeling, but it certainly is not correct per se.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
Correction to my own post above:

30 USD is (probably, I didn't calculate it myself) the result of linear regression and, as I understood sarc, removing some outlier data (i.e. the bubbles).

The other charts I've seen that use the entire data have as at around 50 USD, IIRC.

That is pretty much consistent with EW analysis, isn't it? I mean, the bottom of wave 4 (bottom post-2013 crash) is aprox. the top of wave 1 (2011 bubble high), isn't it?



As I said earlier I arrived to the same conclusion using my very own "common sense" and analysis after April, 10th - but now I believe I was mistaken.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
Anyway, unless we start doing the mathematical part of this discussion in a more systematic fashion, I'm afraid we will keep misunderstanding each others' points.

I'm game for it. If you're looking at base notation, I seem to recall having used [for example] loge(x) and log10(x). Obviously, it is not standard notation but a compromise for a text-based medium.

I believe prof clarified things a little at one point and sarc continued to assert the incorrect thing as correct [ log(x+1) ].

As I wrote in my 'EDIT' already, there is no disagreement between us re: correct use of log, only a confusion of notation (more due to my part, I admit, my way of writing it was highly misleading)

log_(n)(x) and log_(n)(x+1) are of course not the same. If sarc stated that, he was wrong. Funny enough, for his results it shouldn't really matter much, the difference will be minimal I think.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
Anyway, unless we start doing the mathematical part of this discussion in a more systematic fashion, I'm afraid we will keep misunderstanding each others' points.

I'm game for it. If you're looking at base notation, I seem to recall having used [for example] loge(x) and log10(x). Obviously, if you could use real notation, it would be different.

I believe prof clarified things a little at one point and sarc continued to assert the incorrect thing as correct [ log(x+1) ].
nope.
log(x+1) is right for this data, that's how I'm able to fit a straight line to it and make a valid estimate of the underlying trend to date. 
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
Correction to my own post above:

30 USD is (probably, I didn't calculate it myself) the result of linear regression and, as I understood sarc, removing some outlier data (i.e. the bubbles).

The other charts I've seen that use the entire data have as at around 50 USD, IIRC.
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 2245
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
Anyway, unless we start doing the mathematical part of this discussion in a more systematic fashion, I'm afraid we will keep misunderstanding each others' points.

I'm game for it. If you're looking at base notation, I seem to recall having used [for example] loge(x) and log10(x). Obviously, it is not standard notation but a compromise for a text-based medium.

I believe prof clarified things a little at one point and sarc continued to assert the incorrect thing as correct [ log(x+1) ].

Let one thing be said, though: whether sarc's graph or method was entirely accurate or not, the prediction "in the range of 30 USD" seems to be the one you get in fact, if you do a simple regression on the entire historical data.

This is not due to some massaging the data by sarc or a mistake in his method, but simply the result of that particular analysis. Whether that type of analysis is actually predictive of the future price is a different matter.

No disagreement there. The exponent definitely changed. The question is whether it is a bubble or represents a different phase of Bitcoin's growth. I'm holding on to mine...
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1000
Haha. Cant even agree on Math....   long live the Wall Observer thread!
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 2245
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k

You are missing the point. A trendline is to best match the development of the price, and if it does match it is consistent and can be used as a model for an expectation.
One could even estimate the "offset" systematically to better match the graph and this would be as valid or even more valid than doing otherwise.

Oh, for sure. I just don't agree with "We add 1 because it's the correct thing to do".
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
@prof7bit

[...]

I don't know exactly what sarc did in his model, but if the dispute between you and him boils down to plotting the data on a chart with a log n y-axis vs. plotting the data on a chart with a log n+1 y-axis, then there is no dispute. The two are, for our purposes, equivalent.

If that's not the point of your dispute, I'm sorry that I missed it.

No. Adding a constant before taking the log of an exponential function distorts the curve. You would only add a constant if the exponential was starting from an offset (to counteract that offset).

If there is an offset in the bitcoin price (unlikely but possible), there is absolutely no reason to assume it is $1.

I never said you should add a constant to the value. I was talking about the equivalence of mapping to a log n and log n+1 chart. And that part is certainly true.

EDIT: I see the problem now. Damn sloppy notation :) you're talking about 'x', and I'm talking about base 'n' in log_(n)(x).

My point was, since the entire discussion between the two was sort of messy and unstructured, I'm not entirely sure what the claims of each party are, and I though at some point the two were arguing whether the above matters.

Anyway, unless we start doing the mathematical part of this discussion in a more systematic fashion, I'm afraid we will keep misunderstanding each others' points.

Let one thing be said, though: whether sarc's graph or method was entirely accurate or not, the prediction "in the range of 30 USD" seems to be the one you get in fact, if you do a simple regression on the entire historical data.

This is not due to some massaging the data by sarc or a mistake in his method, but simply the result of that particular analysis. Whether that type of analysis is actually predictive of the future price is a different matter.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1782
1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
@prof7bit

Calm down, please. You're going as far as accusing sarc of posting false information on purpose, when all that goes on in reality is a disagreement about the math behind what was posted here.

My take on it (already mentioned above, shortened version to follow):

I don't know exactly what sarc did in his model, but if the dispute between you and him boils down to plotting the data on a chart with a log n y-axis vs. plotting the data on a chart with a log n+1 y-axis, then there is no dispute. The two are, for our purposes, equivalent.

If that's not the point of your dispute, I'm sorry that I missed it.

No. Adding a constant before taking the log of an exponential function distorts the curve. You would only add a constant if the exponential was starting from an offset (to counteract that offset).

If there is an offset in the bitcoin price (unlikely but possible), there is absolutely no reason to assume it is $1.

You are missing the point. A trendline is to best match the development of the price, and if it does match it is consistent and can be used as a model for an expectation.
One could even estimate the "offset" systematically to better match the graph and this would be as valid or even more valid than doing otherwise.

^yes.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
@prof7bit

Calm down, please. You're going as far as accusing sarc of posting false information on purpose, when all that goes on in reality is a disagreement about the math behind what was posted here.

My take on it (already mentioned above, shortened version to follow):

I don't know exactly what sarc did in his model, but if the dispute between you and him boils down to plotting the data on a chart with a log n y-axis vs. plotting the data on a chart with a log n+1 y-axis, then there is no dispute. The two are, for our purposes, equivalent.

If that's not the point of your dispute, I'm sorry that I missed it.

No. Adding a constant before taking the log of an exponential function distorts the curve. You would only add a constant if the exponential was starting from an offset (to counteract that offset).

If there is an offset in the bitcoin price (unlikely but possible), there is absolutely no reason to assume it is $1.

You are missing the point. A trendline is to best match the development of the price, and if it does match it is consistent and can be used as a model for an expectation.
One could even estimate the "offset" systematically to better match the graph and this would be as valid or even more valid than doing otherwise.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
@prof7bit

Calm down, please. You're going as far as accusing sarc of posting false information on purpose, when all that goes on in reality is a disagreement about the math behind what was posted here.

My take on it (already mentioned above, shortened version to follow):

I don't know exactly what sarc did in his model, but if the dispute between you and him boils down to plotting the data on a chart with a log n y-axis vs. plotting the data on a chart with a log n+1 y-axis, then there is no dispute. The two are, for our purposes, equivalent.

If that's not the point of your dispute, I'm sorry that I missed it.

I think he might be being facetious for a laugh...oh and to deny the need to sell his bitcoins.

Actually this is about if other people would consider selling them.
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 2245
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
@prof7bit

Calm down, please. You're going as far as accusing sarc of posting false information on purpose, when all that goes on in reality is a disagreement about the math behind what was posted here.

My take on it (already mentioned above, shortened version to follow):

I don't know exactly what sarc did in his model, but if the dispute between you and him boils down to plotting the data on a chart with a log n y-axis vs. plotting the data on a chart with a log n+1 y-axis, then there is no dispute. The two are, for our purposes, equivalent.

If that's not the point of your dispute, I'm sorry that I missed it.

No. Adding a constant before taking the log of an exponential function distorts the curve. You would only add a constant if the exponential was starting from an offset (to counteract that offset).

If there is an offset in the bitcoin price (unlikely but possible), there is absolutely no reason to assume it is $1.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
@prof7bit

Calm down, please. You're going as far as accusing sarc of posting false information on purpose, when all that goes on in reality is a disagreement about the math behind what was posted here.

My take on it (already mentioned above, shortened version to follow):

I don't know exactly what sarc did in his model, but if the dispute between you and him boils down to plotting the data on a chart with a log n y-axis vs. plotting the data on a chart with a log n+1 y-axis, then there is no dispute. The two are, for our purposes, equivalent.

If that's not the point of your dispute, I'm sorry that I missed it.

I think he might be being facetious for a laugh...oh and to deny the need to sell his bitcoins.
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 2245
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
and then sell your bitcoins.
My bitcoins are none of your business. But you are free to do whatever you want with yours.
You can even plot log(2 pi cos(price + $42)) or whatever else you want and also make sure to try different values of 42 (maybe 42 Yen or 42 EUR) until the chart looks like you want it to look and then base your trading decisions on it.

god, you're such a nerd.

Not that nerdy. You can't take cos of a value with units.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007
@prof7bit

Calm down, please. You're going as far as accusing sarc of posting false information on purpose, when all that goes on in reality is a disagreement about the math behind what was posted here.

My take on it (already mentioned above, shortened version to follow):

I don't know exactly what sarc did in his model, but if the dispute between you and him boils down to plotting the data on a chart with a log n y-axis vs. plotting the data on a chart with a log n+1 y-axis, then there is no dispute. The two are, for our purposes, equivalent.

If that's not the point of your dispute, I'm sorry that I missed it.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
and then sell your bitcoins.
My bitcoins are none of your business. But you are free to do whatever you want with yours.
You can even plot log(2 pi cos(price + $42)) or whatever else you want and also make sure to try different values of 42 (maybe 42 Yen or 42 EUR) until the chart looks like you want it to look and then base your trading decisions on it.

god, you're such a nerd.
hero member
Activity: 938
Merit: 500
https://youengine.io/
and then sell your bitcoins.
My bitcoins are none of your business. But you are free to do whatever you want with yours.
You can even plot log(2 pi cos(price + $42)) or whatever else you want and also make sure to try different values of 42 (maybe 42 Yen or 42 EUR) until the chart looks like you want it to look and then base your trading decisions on it.
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