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Topic: WAVES - Complete Blockchain ecosystem for a token economy - page 51. (Read 131367 times)

hero member
Activity: 1138
Merit: 574
My main issue it the current SWOP.FI stuff.

I hardly believe that the Waves team is promoting a potential scam.

Look at all the contracts source (taken from https://github.com/swopfi/swopfi-smart-contracts):

Code:
@Verifier(tx)
func verify() = match tx {
    case _ => {
        let adminPubKey1Signed = if sigVerify(tx.bodyBytes, tx.proofs[0], adminPubKey1) then 1 else 0
        let adminPubKey2Signed = if sigVerify(tx.bodyBytes, tx.proofs[1], adminPubKey2) then 1 else 0
        let adminPubKey3Signed = if sigVerify(tx.bodyBytes, tx.proofs[2], adminPubKey3) then 1 else 0
        adminPubKey1Signed + adminPubKey2Signed + adminPubKey3Signed >= 2
    }
}

The Verifier function allow by a multisig to withdraw and control the funds (it also allow to update the dApp script).
It mean that if 2 peoples on 3 decide to run away with all the fund: the dApp will allow it.
We don't even know if their is 3 peoples or just 1...

The dApp point is to decentralize stuff the prevent trusting a third party.
In that case the third party has all the right (dApp update + funds control), so you must trust it.

tldr;
Swop.fi is NOT decentralized.


Ofc, it is not decentralized YET. Nothing besides Bitcoin is decentralized yet.

But Waves and it's additional tokens are designed to be decentralized --> so that can happen in the future.

Look at Binance Chain, it is obviously not decentralized. Also Ethereum is not really decentralized.

Look at their market cap value. Take it as an early mover advantage, if you hold Waves already. It has so much potential.



You missed my point I guess.
I'm not speaking of the Waves blockchain itself but of the SWOP dApp.

They have currently above $40M of user's liquidity that the SWOP dApp operators can withdraw anytime.
It's not the purpose of a dApp, they can turn that into a scam if they want.
hero member
Activity: 601
Merit: 503
And Waves needs cooperation with external websites.

Why is Waves (DEX) and swop.fi still not on Sites like https://defipulse.com/ Huh

There are lots of other important sites like this.
hero member
Activity: 601
Merit: 503
Waves needs influencer marketing (youtube etc.), when will Sasha get this? Can you answer this @sasha or @WavesSupport?

Look at the popular youtube channels, they have hundredthousands of views, and Waves is NEVER mentioned. On reddit etc. Waves is NEVER mentioned.

Take some of the huge treasury to pay influencers and Waves will get 5x in no time, becaues the fundamentals are too strong.
hero member
Activity: 601
Merit: 503
My main issue it the current SWOP.FI stuff.

I hardly believe that the Waves team is promoting a potential scam.

Look at all the contracts source (taken from https://github.com/swopfi/swopfi-smart-contracts):

Code:
@Verifier(tx)
func verify() = match tx {
    case _ => {
        let adminPubKey1Signed = if sigVerify(tx.bodyBytes, tx.proofs[0], adminPubKey1) then 1 else 0
        let adminPubKey2Signed = if sigVerify(tx.bodyBytes, tx.proofs[1], adminPubKey2) then 1 else 0
        let adminPubKey3Signed = if sigVerify(tx.bodyBytes, tx.proofs[2], adminPubKey3) then 1 else 0
        adminPubKey1Signed + adminPubKey2Signed + adminPubKey3Signed >= 2
    }
}

The Verifier function allow by a multisig to withdraw and control the funds (it also allow to update the dApp script).
It mean that if 2 peoples on 3 decide to run away with all the fund: the dApp will allow it.
We don't even know if their is 3 peoples or just 1...

The dApp point is to decentralize stuff the prevent trusting a third party.
In that case the third party has all the right (dApp update + funds control), so you must trust it.

tldr;
Swop.fi is NOT decentralized.


Ofc, it is not decentralized YET. Nothing besides Bitcoin is decentralized yet.

But Waves and it's additional tokens are designed to be decentralized --> so that can happen in the future.

Look at Binance Chain, it is obviously not decentralized. Also Ethereum is not really decentralized.

Look at their market cap value. Take it as an early mover advantage, if you hold Waves already. It has so much potential.

member
Activity: 1321
Merit: 28
When we get the Binance NSBT Distribution?

It has to be already distributed!
hero member
Activity: 1138
Merit: 574
My main issue it the current SWOP.FI stuff.

I hardly believe that the Waves team is promoting a potential scam.

Look at all the contracts source (taken from https://github.com/swopfi/swopfi-smart-contracts):

Code:
@Verifier(tx)
func verify() = match tx {
    case _ => {
        let adminPubKey1Signed = if sigVerify(tx.bodyBytes, tx.proofs[0], adminPubKey1) then 1 else 0
        let adminPubKey2Signed = if sigVerify(tx.bodyBytes, tx.proofs[1], adminPubKey2) then 1 else 0
        let adminPubKey3Signed = if sigVerify(tx.bodyBytes, tx.proofs[2], adminPubKey3) then 1 else 0
        adminPubKey1Signed + adminPubKey2Signed + adminPubKey3Signed >= 2
    }
}

The Verifier function allow by a multisig to withdraw and control the funds (it also allow to update the dApp script).
It mean that if 2 peoples on 3 decide to run away with all the fund: the dApp will allow it.
We don't even know if their is 3 peoples or just 1...

The dApp point is to decentralize stuff the prevent trusting a third party.
In that case the third party has all the right (dApp update + funds control), so you must trust it.

tldr;
Swop.fi is NOT decentralized.
jr. member
Activity: 90
Merit: 1
The shorthand translation is that they accidentally launched a pyramid and there will be a "DAO" style bug/fund lock/hack to make everyone lose their money.

You are investing in insane risk right now that's all I can say if you put money into these contracts.

This is not even a hypotethical, they already did it before with WUSD, it's SOP as far as waves "stablecoins".


hero member
Activity: 1928
Merit: 538
I am following Waves for a while now, and I am a big fan of the platform and like the direction it is going.
I have a number of questions regarding the new developments on the Waves platform and would like to assess and understand their intrinsic risks better, it would be great if somebody could provide more knowledge or point me to a FAQ (if it exists)

1) The Staking rewards for the LP tokens are pretty high right now. (Like 10-15% for BTC and ETH and >40% for USDC and USDT)
It is mentioned in the description of the Waves.exchange that the price of the LP tokens can never go down (however details are not mentioned). How is this possible? While logically this does make some sense to me for the stablecoins, I don't understand how this is achieved for volatile cryptos such as BTC or ETH? Is the liquidity there only provided to assets that are stable to BTC (or ETH respectively)? Or how is it done?

2) What are the risks of the Staking the LP coins? Of course I could imagine some sort of smart contract bug. Is there any other "black swan" event for those tokens? What would happen if for some reason the underlying asset goes down by 99%? What happens if the other side of the pair used for generating the stakes goes down 99%? What happens if ETH forks? (as most of the Staking is done on the ETH chain if I understood correctly)

3) Regarding the USDN tokens: They are backed entirely by Waves, is this correct? USDN has currently a backing ratio of ~2, so that way more Waves are locked than USDN are issued (in $). What would happen if Waves goes down by more than 50% and the backing goes below 100%? Would USDN fall below $1?

4) One last question about swop.fi. This looks like a great addition to the Waves platform and it also has a nice FAQ. However, I couldn't find how are prices made? The trading doesn't seem to go over the Waves.exchange directly (or does it? the prices don't match with the waves exchange orderbook though). For instance if I buy a huge amount of BTC for USDN on swop.fi, what exactly happens with the LP-pool? How does it balance the USDN and BTC amounts after the purchase? As there is the (deterministic?) AMM algorithm behind I wonder if this algorithm could be abused in some sort of attack, especially for the pairs with at least 1 non-stablecoin, for instance in a flash crash or sudden price jumps?

Thanks in advance and keep up the good work Smiley



1) Staking rewards come from farming revenue: ERC-20 assets (USDC,USDT,BTC,ETC) are used to provide liquidity to different tools like Uniswap or Curve.fi. Liquidity providers (LP) tokens are the proof that you have staked your assets. LP-tokens grow in their price that includes the revenue for farming of ERC-20 assets.
2) The majority of risks appears because of Ethereum dApps logic bugs. Science tokens are provided to Uniswap or Curve as a liquidity, any issues with their contracts can affect investors. Another risk is the gateway scam risk science now ERC-20 coins are ported to Ethereum via a centralized bridge. This problem is going to be solved by Gravity protocol with its decentralized bridge.
3) There is an additional recapitalization token called NSBT with its own advanced tokenomics. If the BR falls, the issue price of NSBT on smart contract becomes really attractive for traders who start to buy it with WAVES providing an additional collateralization to Neutrino smart contract.
4) Swop.fi has an independent pricing mechanics. Price in the majority of pools is calculated with the AMM-formula and is usually same with Waves.Exchange prices because of arbitragers: if price of WAVES is falling in Swop.fi, one would be interested to buy it on Swop and instantly sell on Waves Exchange to earn arbitrage profit, which would make price on Swop grow.

happy to see here some support , which is not bot-directed for maybe the first time.
however, you don't imagine the complexity of a system developed outside the main crypto forum (here).
we understand that progress is not made without new pitfalls.
now you have to deal with this complexity , and probably to explain it further, more extensively,
because i can assure you that a part of previous waves members are now lost in the jungle.
xyz
hero member
Activity: 1860
Merit: 774
Not exactly, either on cryptocurrencymarketcap https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/neutrino-system-base-token/ and on coinranking https://coinranking.com/coin/fWTaNV_Ff+neutrinosystembasetoken-nsbt nsbt price is over $ 20 currently.

You are right! Sorry! It is Neutrino USDN, what is the stable coin of Waves.
For NSBT is written at Waves:
Quote
"NSBT holders get the power to influence decisions concerning the Neutrino protocol. It is important to note that if there is a surplus on the contract, the contract guarantees that it will buy the unlimited amount of your NSBT at any time at a price of 1 USDN. Thus, you are insured against the complete loss of your investment."
legendary
Activity: 3528
Merit: 1234
Top Crypto Casino
Not exactly, either on cryptocurrencymarketcap https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/neutrino-system-base-token/ and on coinranking https://coinranking.com/coin/fWTaNV_Ff+neutrinosystembasetoken-nsbt nsbt price is over $ 20 currently.
xyz
hero member
Activity: 1860
Merit: 774
When we get the Binance NSBT Distribution?

Seems it is already delivered. You can find it at binance "Transaction History", but it isn't shown in the spot wallet this moment.
Rate is about 0.00048 NSBT for 1 Waves.

does it even have a value?

i have been received hundreds of tokens in my wallet but none of them appears to have any value at all. is it on swop?
there is no way of verifying whether the tokens received do have a market. i was interested to come back again to try trading since i can see waves.exchange volume had gained volume. quite good that it's competing and listed on CMC DEX too.



You are talking about your waves Wallet!? Yes there are many, many coins without any value.

But we are here speaking about an airdrop for Waves in the binance spot wallet. And this token NSBT has a value (this moment not for trading at binance, but in your Waves-Wallet)! It is a the waves backed Dollar-Token, and therefor the value of 1 NSBT is worth 1 US-Dollar.
legendary
Activity: 3248
Merit: 1055
When we get the Binance NSBT Distribution?

Seems it is already delivered. You can find it at binance "Transaction History", but it isn't shown in the spot wallet this moment.
Rate is about 0.00048 NSBT for 1 Waves.

does it even have a value?

i have been received hundreds of tokens in my wallet but none of them appears to have any value at all. is it on swop?
there is no way of verifying whether the tokens received do have a market. i was interested to come back again to try trading since i can see waves.exchange volume had gained volume. quite good that it's competing and listed on CMC DEX too.

xyz
hero member
Activity: 1860
Merit: 774
When we get the Binance NSBT Distribution?

Seems it is already delivered. You can find it at binance "Transaction History", but it isn't shown in the spot wallet this moment.
Rate is about 0.00048 NSBT for 1 Waves.
hero member
Activity: 601
Merit: 503
When we get the Binance NSBT Distribution?
member
Activity: 1321
Merit: 28
I am following Waves for a while now, and I am a big fan of the platform and like the direction it is going.
I have a number of questions regarding the new developments on the Waves platform and would like to assess and understand their intrinsic risks better, it would be great if somebody could provide more knowledge or point me to a FAQ (if it exists)

1) The Staking rewards for the LP tokens are pretty high right now. (Like 10-15% for BTC and ETH and >40% for USDC and USDT)
It is mentioned in the description of the Waves.exchange that the price of the LP tokens can never go down (however details are not mentioned). How is this possible? While logically this does make some sense to me for the stablecoins, I don't understand how this is achieved for volatile cryptos such as BTC or ETH? Is the liquidity there only provided to assets that are stable to BTC (or ETH respectively)? Or how is it done?

2) What are the risks of the Staking the LP coins? Of course I could imagine some sort of smart contract bug. Is there any other "black swan" event for those tokens? What would happen if for some reason the underlying asset goes down by 99%? What happens if the other side of the pair used for generating the stakes goes down 99%? What happens if ETH forks? (as most of the Staking is done on the ETH chain if I understood correctly)

3) Regarding the USDN tokens: They are backed entirely by Waves, is this correct? USDN has currently a backing ratio of ~2, so that way more Waves are locked than USDN are issued (in $). What would happen if Waves goes down by more than 50% and the backing goes below 100%? Would USDN fall below $1?

4) One last question about swop.fi. This looks like a great addition to the Waves platform and it also has a nice FAQ. However, I couldn't find how are prices made? The trading doesn't seem to go over the Waves.exchange directly (or does it? the prices don't match with the waves exchange orderbook though). For instance if I buy a huge amount of BTC for USDN on swop.fi, what exactly happens with the LP-pool? How does it balance the USDN and BTC amounts after the purchase? As there is the (deterministic?) AMM algorithm behind I wonder if this algorithm could be abused in some sort of attack, especially for the pairs with at least 1 non-stablecoin, for instance in a flash crash or sudden price jumps?

Thanks in advance and keep up the good work Smiley



1) Staking rewards come from farming revenue: ERC-20 assets (USDC,USDT,BTC,ETC) are used to provide liquidity to different tools like Uniswap or Curve.fi. Liquidity providers (LP) tokens are the proof that you have staked your assets. LP-tokens grow in their price that includes the revenue for farming of ERC-20 assets.
2) The majority of risks appears because of Ethereum dApps logic bugs. Science tokens are provided to Uniswap or Curve as a liquidity, any issues with their contracts can affect investors. Another risk is the gateway scam risk science now ERC-20 coins are ported to Ethereum via a centralized bridge. This problem is going to be solved by Gravity protocol with its decentralized bridge.
3) There is an additional recapitalization token called NSBT with its own advanced tokenomics. If the BR falls, the issue price of NSBT on smart contract becomes really attractive for traders who start to buy it with WAVES providing an additional collateralization to Neutrino smart contract.
4) Swop.fi has an independent pricing mechanics. Price in the majority of pools is calculated with the AMM-formula and is usually same with Waves.Exchange prices because of arbitragers: if price of WAVES is falling in Swop.fi, one would be interested to buy it on Swop and instantly sell on Waves Exchange to earn arbitrage profit, which would make price on Swop grow.
member
Activity: 1321
Merit: 28
Are there more projects planned on waves blockchain to work in similar way like Swop, and maybe something like uniswap exchange for waves?
It has much lower fees than ethereum and good potential for growth this year.


Actually you can say that Swop.fi is like Uniswap for Waves. And I agree, that fees and growth potential are its key advantages. Talking about other DeFi projects, in Waves there is already a stablecoin protocol Neutrino and we are looking for others to come.
member
Activity: 1321
Merit: 28
Quote
That is due to the fact, that you do an airdrop to attract new customers and not the ones you already have.

Why do you think new customers are better and should be treated better than loyal customers?


Quote
In addition loyal customers will have rewarded themself for being loyal by buying NSBT for low price at the beginning.

Loyal customer isn't equal active customer, I am long-term (since ICO) hodler, and I cannot follow all the news all the time Wink

Quote
So at the end loyal customers will always profit unindependent to whome those aidrops are given :-)
I hope we will profit anyway, too

Now I am waiting for good explanation of USDC/USDT staking  on Waves and its risk.

PS. Are all of the addresses from this list trustworthy (I'd prefer daily payouts):


Quite the opposite, in Waves Ecosystem the early adopters get the main benefits. Good example would be SWOP token launch and their early-birds program. So, join Waves and community chats to avoid missing any further updates.
hero member
Activity: 1974
Merit: 856
We've made it to the spring, and it's time to see where we stand! The February issue of our monthly digest focuses on DeFi tools in the Waves ecosystem and features our recent achievements and updates.
Hi Waves.support,
It would be great if you could address some of my open questions:

1) The Staking rewards for the LP tokens are pretty high right now. (Like 10-15% for BTC and ETH and >40% for USDC and USDT)
It is mentioned in the description of the Waves.exchange that the price of the LP tokens can never go down (however details are not mentioned). How is this possible? While logically this does make some sense to me for the stablecoins, I don't understand how this is achieved for volatile cryptos such as BTC or ETH? Is the liquidity there only provided to assets that are stable to BTC (or ETH respectively)? Or how is it done?

2) What are the risks of the Staking the LP coins? Of course I could imagine some sort of smart contract bug. Is there any other "black swan" event for those tokens? What would happen if for some reason the underlying asset goes down by 99%? What happens if the other side of the pair used for generating the stakes goes down 99%? What happens if ETH forks? (as most of the Staking is done on the ETH chain if I understood correctly)

3) Regarding the USDN tokens: They are backed entirely by Waves, is this correct? USDN has currently a backing ratio of ~2, so that way more Waves are locked than USDN are issued (in $). What would happen if Waves goes down by more than 50% and the backing goes below 100%? Would USDN fall below $1?
Thanks!  Smiley
member
Activity: 1321
Merit: 28




We've made it to the spring, and it's time to see where we stand! The February issue of our monthly digest focuses on DeFi tools in the Waves ecosystem and features our recent achievements and updates.

Read the digest.
jr. member
Activity: 90
Merit: 1
The video of Swop APY itself explains that only a fraction, less than 1% is from real revenue such as fees, pooled into total APY.

The remainder of this xxx% yield is from staking and farming rewards.

Real APY backing is less than 1% and you can see exactly how much in the video based on collected fees, it's below $25 000 for the total Swop pool.

I would advice to dramatically decrease APY to less than 10% maybe same as waves 6% because this APY is not backed by anything.

I don't think Waves is using funds from deposits to pay investors, I don't see it as Ponzi.

It is simply hyperinflating supply which is what Masternodes did in 2018 and 1 year after every masternode was -99%.

So what happends here is extreme dilution if you invest your money into USDN, Swop etc.

In the stock world, this is usually from excessive company emissions to raise new money, they take a 10 million shares and pump another 5 million into market by selling it to investors to raise development funds. This drastically dilutes the market and makes every share less valuable which causes downwards pressure on price.

But stock market never had anything near xxx% annual dilution, which is also why Masternodes imploded in such short time and so dramatically  -99%.

So the take away is that you are buying toxic assets here, anything over 5-10% APY is toxic because it is unbacked and will dilute your investment to zero by hyperinflating supply.

I don't understand the logic with this creation how did waves expect to catch up to such extreme APY and back it with something real such as fees or other revenue sources?

This was impossible for the past thousands of years of finance, it did not suddenly become a reality this year.

It is actually a Pyramid, not ponzi.


Value investors should absolutely take a look at NFTs and follow investment in NFTs which are consistently selling such as Beeple. This is a very hard investment category and art collecting in a new frontier is even harder than normal art collecting. But atleast there is some material backing to the ROI. Early NFTs from 2017 will probably go up alot in value similar to Surrealism, pop art, Beat, Cubism movements.

Waves is very lucky, because there is one 2017 NFT token on waves. All others are from Ethereum and they are valued in the hundreds of millions at this point.

I guess waves created this high APY to get new users which is a good cause but this methodology will backfire because the foundation is from DeFi hyperinflation, if we suppose it is not straight up ponzi.


DeFi can be launched as lending contracts instead of hyperinflating contracts.

It is very easy to create lending on waves with 20-30% APY.

Simply lock USDN on user 1 wallet and collateralize his waves at 70-80% LTV.

This borrowed USDN can be transferred or there can be a rule that it can only be used inside waves exchange.

As long as monthly fee is paid, the contract cannot be liquidated.

This is much better way to grow userbase, waves price will go over $100 if you launch this.

TurtleNetwork already have this Dapp on Polarity but it is experimental 1 week loan at 50-70% LTV.

Very promising.

Waves loans should be without time limit if user chooses this option, only repayment of interest per monthly, with zero principal.

The key is to lock interest in USDN, not waves. OR, lock repayment in waves based on when the loan was issued, so if waves price goes up, the user only pays USDN equivalent to original amount. This means, if user takes $10 000 loan when waves $10, he will repay 1,3 waves every month with 0.3 as interest, or simply 0.3 instead of 1.3 if this is loan without time limit which the Swedish housing market had before 2016, interest only mortgage because home values only went up. So, when waves increase to $100, the interest repayment goes from 0.3 waves per month to 0.03, and this way it is dynamic price correlation because repayment is based on orignal USDN value of loan.

Another option will be to repay loan instantly using waves collateral if waves price goes up.

This is true DeFi, banking for the unbanked.

I would advice, $20 000 credit per wallet, with $350 interest per month, this is 20% APY. But it is real APY, not fake like Swop.

In order to take this loan, user must own $30 000 in waves. But more importantly, do not liquidate lending contracts if waves price goes down, simply bundle price loss into monthly repayment, maybe by increasing it a little bit like $50-$100 to cover short term volatility.

But you can also issue blanco loans without waves collateral. This USDN blanco loan should only be used inside waves exchange and only to buy waves or waves tokens or other waves related products and cannot be withdrawn from wallet. Blanco loan interest can be 30% APY instead of 20%.

Blanco USDN should be issued separately as USDN-B because its junk bonds with high default rate. Tokens traded against USDN-B will inherit debtor status but the monthly interest is still paid by original loan taker. When USDN-B is collateralized by monthly repayments, a share of supply can be converted into USDN and traded freely.

The reward for selling tokens for USDN-B is that this pairing will be pumped because of blanco lenders. So the dollar reward for token sellers is much higher, but risk of default is also higher.

If someone buys Tokens using USDN-B, those tokens go into blanco pool and cannot be touched until the loan is collateralized by monthly repayments. it can then be withdrawn according to level of USDN-B collateralization per account.

For example:

user 1 takes $20k USDN-B blanco with $500 USDN repayment interest

He buys token 2 for $1 using this USDN-B whereas in USDN market token 2 is trading at 20 cents

After exchange seller of token 2/USDN-B is locked in wallet and waiting for user 1 to repay, he can then withdraw or convert equivalent to what is paid in USDN every month, $500.

User 1 who bought token 2, cannot immediately resell token 2 in USDN market for 20 cents, he must wait until USDN-B loan is repaid with $500, and can then withdraw $500 worth of Token 2.



It is win/win/win for waves/investor/project creator

waves gets users, investor gets financing to invest in tokens they believe in, token creator gets more paid. The risk is carried by investor.

There are many small retail investors with $100-$1000, what will happen if they can access $20 000? Default? possible, market pump? definately.

But default in this case is harmless, because if borrower does not pay after month 1 deadline, tokens from the pool go back to seller and USDN-B is burned. The wallet which defaults, should be placed on cooldown before permitted new loan.

This system maybe is not perfect, but it is more realistic than swop for yield farmers.
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