What has really been behind china's economy

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Quote from: el kaka22 on November 22, 2023, 11:42:45 PM

They have used slave labor conditions to build stuff for other nations and make cheap products and get all the manufacturing, once again (not first in their history) ignoring all the damage they are doing to their own citizens and to the world (pollution) and they just cared about their power, which allowed them to have enough money to just fund other nations and get them under their control.

Do you think a nation that has 30%+ of their gdp indebted to China would end up with going against China? They would have two reasons not to, first of all they are getting money from them so why would they stop, secondly if China comes asking for their money back, it would be very hard to say no, it would be dangerous for sure.

It seems like a bit of selective memory to only criticise China for problems with labour and the environment. Let's not forget that Western countries have generally become industrialised in ways that were not good for the environment or moral. Similar things happened in the West on its way to progress, like taking advantage of people and damaging the environment. Do we not have two different standards here? Now let's talk about how we count on and owe money to China. It's a complicated web of interdependence. Yes, countries may be hesitant to stand up to China because of their debts, but it's too simple to think that debt-ridden countries are just tools. International politics is not a simple case of a debtor owing money to a creditor

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SHANGHAI, Nov 24 (Reuters) - Chinese stocks closed in negative territory on Friday as investors remained cautious given the sluggish economic recovery and strong foreign investment outflows further dampened risk appetite.
The Shanghai Composite index fell 0.68 percent to 3,040.97 points, while the blue-chip CSI300 index fell 0.66 percent to 3,538.01 points.
Hong Kong's Hang Seng index fell 1.96% to 17,559.42 points and the China Enterprises index fell 2.1% to 6,041.15 points.
Mainland blue chips lost 0.8% for the week, their worst weekly performance in a month, while the Hang Seng Index climbed 0.6%.
Net sales of Chinese stocks by foreign investors through the Stock Connect system totaled 6.2 billion yuan ($859.79 million) on Friday, the biggest daily outflow in more than a month.

Looks like "economic recovery" is hiding over the horizon....

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Quote from: el kaka22 on November 22, 2023, 11:42:45 PM

Do you think a nation that has 30%+ of their gdp indebted to China would end up with going against China? They would have two reasons not to, first of all they are getting money from them so why would they stop, secondly if China comes asking for their money back, it would be very hard to say no, it would be dangerous for sure.

I wonder what the punishment is for a country that won't be able to pay a debt or, let's say, they don't want to pay the debt at once as most of their contract is they will pay the debt in installments. Who will solve that issue? Internation court? I don't see anything else how it could be dangerous for a country. Or is there any chance China may attack them?

I don't think a country will attack another country just because they could not pay the debt. Instead, if they stop exporting products to those countries and they ask other countries not to help, that could create a real mess.

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They have used slave labor conditions to build stuff for other nations and make cheap products and get all the manufacturing, once again (not first in their history) ignoring all the damage they are doing to their own citizens and to the world (pollution) and they just cared about their power, which allowed them to have enough money to just fund other nations and get them under their control.

Do you think a nation that has 30%+ of their gdp indebted to China would end up with going against China? They would have two reasons not to, first of all they are getting money from them so why would they stop, secondly if China comes asking for their money back, it would be very hard to say no, it would be dangerous for sure.

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Quote from: DrBeer on November 18, 2023, 08:59:48 AM

Quote from: ChiBitCTy on November 17, 2023, 08:26:41 PM

The truth is that we really can't believe the economic data that is coming out of China. China is notorious for falsifying their numbers for just about anything and everything, not to say that most other nations don't do the same to an extent, but being that it's such a tightly ran nation that doesn't allow for much of "outside eyes" looking in, it's very hard for anyone to prove whatever they are reporting as factual or not. Just looking a a communistic dictatorship governmental set-up standpoint...hard to trust them

That's one of the problems - the insularity of the real data on the Chinese economy. If we, for example, can roughly calculate the volume of foreign trade by secondary data (from importers and exporters of China), the internal "kitchen" is closed from the whole world. For example, there is absolutely no information about the real stock of foreign exchange reserves. Yes, we can, for example, know from the U.S. side how much China buys U.S. government bonds, but... that's ALL, the rest of the information is not verifiable and is not available not only to the outside world but also inside China. Therefore, it is possible that the strength of the Chinese economy is...to put it mildly, far from the public picture.

Even if i try to agree a little bit with your assertion, china has been giving out loans to various countries across the globe, there infrastructural and construction company are all over Africa, and they are doing very well with their productivity. China might try to hide some statistics about the internal infractions about their country, but having a country with over a billion people and they are not in extreme poverty situation, then trust me, china is doing well.

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on November 17, 2023, 08:26:41 PM

The truth is that we really can't believe the economic data that is coming out of China. China is notorious for falsifying their numbers for just about anything and everything, not to say that most other nations don't do the same to an extent, but being that it's such a tightly ran nation that doesn't allow for much of "outside eyes" looking in, it's very hard for anyone to prove whatever they are reporting as factual or not. Just looking a a communistic dictatorship governmental set-up standpoint...hard to trust them

That's one of the problems - the insularity of the real data on the Chinese economy. If we, for example, can roughly calculate the volume of foreign trade by secondary data (from importers and exporters of China), the internal "kitchen" is closed from the whole world. For example, there is absolutely no information about the real stock of foreign exchange reserves. Yes, we can, for example, know from the U.S. side how much China buys U.S. government bonds, but... that's ALL, the rest of the information is not verifiable and is not available not only to the outside world but also inside China. Therefore, it is possible that the strength of the Chinese economy is...to put it mildly, far from the public picture.

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Quote from: Spaceman1000$ on September 04, 2023, 10:26:53 AM

Sometimes as a rational thinker, I've tried to wrap my head around how China has been able to sustain their economy with an estimated GDP growth of 3.00 percent and per CAPITAL GDP of 18187.98 USD, Especially owing to the fact that, they have to much people heavily dependent on her economy and population of over 1.400 billion people.

the answer is simple
when public services like hospitals, road maintenance is done in-house by government contractors. the costs are actually done "at cost" rather than giving funds to private companies where there is a 2-3x charge which private companies add on. so they do not have to "print" as much money during covid to be syphoned off by private business at 3x profit.

when they build the hospitals for covid they built them far cheaper then the US gov budget handed out to medical corporations to handle covid

instead of handing citizens $1xk per quarter. they instead employed people to do shopping deliveries and welness checks thus people did not have extra out of pocket expense staying home

when you look how much fraud happened in america about the covid grants. you soon start to see who wasted more money

ChiBitCTy

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The truth is that we really can't believe the economic data that is coming out of China. China is notorious for falsifying their numbers for just about anything and everything, not to say that most other nations don't do the same to an extent, but being that it's such a tightly ran nation that doesn't allow for much of "outside eyes" looking in, it's very hard for anyone to prove whatever they are reporting as factual or not. Just looking a a communistic dictatorship governmental set-up standpoint...hard to trust them

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Quote from: DrBeer on November 17, 2023, 02:16:16 PM

I apologize but you are wrong, if I understood your answer correctly. if I did not understand correctly - correct me, maybe I really misunderstood you....
But... One of the problems with China is that just in the last decade China has seen a rise in incomes and living standards. That has led to some changes. Starting with the fact that population growth has gone down - both the impact of the "one family, one child" program and the actual rise in the standard of living of the Chinese. And as you know, the higher the standard of living, the lower the number of children in families. 1-2 children is normal, but not 5-10 children. And this is a resource for cheap labor.

Oh yes we live in different environments, and just because income of some is higher that does not mean there are no issues. China has huge issues with overeducated people finding jobs in their profession. Still millions have huge debts or credits running for apartments which have been demolished.

Quote from: WillAP

Few countries try to counter those cash problems in offering schooling to the working class.
Scandinavia, the Baltic States go that way. China in parts but their economy is still more export driven.

That was not an answer directed towards you actually, it was meant towards all. Wages are too low. Most countries have greedy politicians. Specially Africa has a lot of them. The still US is a rich country. People flogg into the US as they believe that 1500 US$ is a huge wage compared to the 150 they would make in Ecuador or elsewhere. But in the US they lower classes suffer most, under the pressure of a mass inmigration.

That apart the US neither seems to believe in Education.

Back to China, I don't think they can survive without selling their goods into the West.
The EU will be poor just as the US as lower classes will get less $ for more work, which will lead to revolution.

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Quote from: WillyAp on November 17, 2023, 09:11:05 AM

Quote from: DrBeer on November 17, 2023, 04:31:02 AM

You see what the problem is - Asian, African market of course is good. BUT ! This market is not ready to buy a lot, expensive and for a stable currency like dollar or euro. In addition, neither Asian nor African markets will bring investment and technology to the Chinese economy! That is why the Chinese economy is dependent on the Western market.

Exactly, due to the root of all problems, wages are too low.
Sad is that the EU seems to be blind in that regard.

Few countries try to counter those cash problems in offering schooling to the working class.
Scandinavia, the Baltic States go that way. China in parts but their economy is still more export driven.

I apologize but you are wrong, if I understood your answer correctly. if I did not understand correctly - correct me, maybe I really misunderstood you....
But... One of the problems with China is that just in the last decade China has seen a rise in incomes and living standards. That has led to some changes. Starting with the fact that population growth has gone down - both the impact of the "one family, one child" program and the actual rise in the standard of living of the Chinese. And as you know, the higher the standard of living, the lower the number of children in families. 1-2 children is normal, but not 5-10 children. And this is a resource for cheap labor.
Rising incomes, also raised the level of labor force demands. And hence the cost of the final product also rises. I'm sure you understand where this leads.
At the same time, the internal crisis has led to an increase in unemployment. Now they are already talking about almost 30% unemployment among the young population. And the issue is not only that there are no jobs, but there is a problem - people are not ready to work for pennies..... because they're already used to a good income. So the low wages of the Chinese population - 20-30 years ago - was really an advantage... But now it's lost...

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Quote from: DrBeer on November 17, 2023, 04:31:02 AM

You see what the problem is - Asian, African market of course is good. BUT ! This market is not ready to buy a lot, expensive and for a stable currency like dollar or euro. In addition, neither Asian nor African markets will bring investment and technology to the Chinese economy! That is why the Chinese economy is dependent on the Western market.

Exactly, due to the root of all problems, wages are too low.
Sad is that the EU seems to be blind in that regard.

Few countries try to counter those cash problems in offering schooling to the working class.
Scandinavia, the Baltic States go that way. China in parts but their economy is still more export driven.

DrBeer

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Quote from: lizarder on November 15, 2023, 08:58:18 AM

Quote from: DrBeer on November 13, 2023, 03:46:03 AM

the growth of China's economy IS. An export-oriented economy cannot actively develop and grow with shrinking markets. And China's economy basically lives by exporting EVERYTHING and EVERYTHING. And the key role is played by Western consumers, who bring revenue in liquid currency. And it is them that China is losing today. Plus the internal crisis, which will lead to lower incomes and taxes, and therefore lower purchasing power inside China, which will also prevent the economy from not only growing, but will force it to reduce turnover, which will worsen the situation. The government cannot subsidize business long and massively to create a pretty picture....

If China can maintain comprehensive exports to markets other than Asia as a new plan they are developing, then I believe China will become one of the strongest countries financially. Of the many products they make, they are generally marketed to Asia because that region is the source of their strength to dominate the market. China is a country that is strong in trade relations and especially its influence on the Asian market which has controlled many sectors and China is also a country that is developing innovation in the field of technology which is now starting to be taken into account by Western countries

The crisis that has occurred in recent years has not only hit China and other countries have also been affected. But their economic strength is much better compared to several countries which are starting to face much bigger problems and their ability to solve the recession problem should be appreciated in the midst of a large population, they are able to provide solutions.

You see what the problem is - Asian, African market of course is good. BUT ! This market is not ready to buy a lot, expensive and for a stable currency like dollar or euro. In addition, neither Asian nor African markets will bring investment and technology to the Chinese economy! That is why the Chinese economy is dependent on the Western market.
I think it is not for nothing that the head of China flew to the US to negotiate a reduction in the degree of economic (and political) confrontation - the internal problems in China are growing like a snowball rolling down a snowy mountain, and without US help they cannot solve the problem. The idea of yuanized BRICS did not work out, and it was the last chance to save the yuan and the economy, without the Western market.

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Quote from: electronicash on November 16, 2023, 01:45:41 PM

Quote from: Spaceman1000$ on November 16, 2023, 01:29:40 PM

Quote from: coupable on November 16, 2023, 11:41:50 AM

Quote from: Spaceman1000$ on September 04, 2023, 10:26:53 AM

The other day, Pawal7777 was talking about recession hitting CANADA, and that's how other countries are having one difficulty here and there economically. So my point is, what economical indices is china adopting to keep their economy afloat?

The strength of the Chinese economy cannot be explained without returning to its historical process since its liberation from Japanese colonialism during World War II. Under Mao's leadership, China adopted many economic models that were inappropriate for the country's specificities. These policies were a blind imitation of the policies of the Soviet Union, and when Brezhnev tried to dissuade them from implementing them, they accused him of revisionism and continued with a policy that relied solely on agriculture and steel production, which led to a famine that killed more than 50 million people. This is only one example of the decline that the Chinese economy suffered from for decades before it realized the best way to build a solid economy based on diversifying resources and encouraging free productivity under planning by the state (the ruling party), which transformed communism from a closed theory into an open policy resembling imperialism. . This is since China is interested in opening new markets, but not in military policies.

You've outlined the historically trajectory of the social political activities that has enveloped overtime in china, however a policy looks like in the theory, if it is not physically manifesting then that theory is just existing in the papers, from what you just outlined, it shows how they've overtime develop policies that are human oriented and that can expand their economic base to what we currently see in this present time.

the economy of China will not grow if they just manufacture different kinds of products that the companies owned by other countries like Apple or Samsung. growing rich means that people will also demand something more. thus the introduction of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). they invest not just inside their country but expand. they invest in countries where they build their trains from China to the West.

they grew their influence from Kazakhstan going to Turkey and will probably reach to UK if no resistance from other parties. they mean business with their policies that why there was no resistance against them in Africa and even in the Middle East so they also improve the lives of those countries they expand.

All of this falls within China's policies to open up to new markets capable of meeting the needs it asks for in order to secure coherent internal production. At the same time, to impose economic hegemony, given that winning markets in the new world is based on an economic base, and military intervention is no longer effective in securing new markets.
This strategy was not adopted by China alone, but by almost all non-colonial powers that cannot abandon the policy of openness and at the same time do not have the qualifications to fight military wars whose losses may be greater than their profits, and in the end nothing is guaranteed.

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Quote from: Spaceman1000$ on November 16, 2023, 01:29:40 PM

Quote from: coupable on November 16, 2023, 11:41:50 AM

Quote from: Spaceman1000$ on September 04, 2023, 10:26:53 AM

The other day, Pawal7777 was talking about recession hitting CANADA, and that's how other countries are having one difficulty here and there economically. So my point is, what economical indices is china adopting to keep their economy afloat?

The strength of the Chinese economy cannot be explained without returning to its historical process since its liberation from Japanese colonialism during World War II. Under Mao's leadership, China adopted many economic models that were inappropriate for the country's specificities. These policies were a blind imitation of the policies of the Soviet Union, and when Brezhnev tried to dissuade them from implementing them, they accused him of revisionism and continued with a policy that relied solely on agriculture and steel production, which led to a famine that killed more than 50 million people. This is only one example of the decline that the Chinese economy suffered from for decades before it realized the best way to build a solid economy based on diversifying resources and encouraging free productivity under planning by the state (the ruling party), which transformed communism from a closed theory into an open policy resembling imperialism. . This is since China is interested in opening new markets, but not in military policies.

You've outlined the historically trajectory of the social political activities that has enveloped overtime in china, however a policy looks like in the theory, if it is not physically manifesting then that theory is just existing in the papers, from what you just outlined, it shows how they've overtime develop policies that are human oriented and that can expand their economic base to what we currently see in this present time.

the economy of China will not grow if they just manufacture different kinds of products that the companies owned by other countries like Apple or Samsung. growing rich means that people will also demand something more. thus the introduction of the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). they invest not just inside their country but expand. they invest in countries where they build their trains from China to the West.

they grew their influence from Kazakhstan going to Turkey and will probably reach to UK if no resistance from other parties. they mean business with their policies that why there was no resistance against them in Africa and even in the Middle East so they also improve the lives of those countries they expand.

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Quote from: coupable on November 16, 2023, 11:41:50 AM

Quote from: Spaceman1000$ on September 04, 2023, 10:26:53 AM

The other day, Pawal7777 was talking about recession hitting CANADA, and that's how other countries are having one difficulty here and there economically. So my point is, what economical indices is china adopting to keep their economy afloat?

The strength of the Chinese economy cannot be explained without returning to its historical process since its liberation from Japanese colonialism during World War II. Under Mao's leadership, China adopted many economic models that were inappropriate for the country's specificities. These policies were a blind imitation of the policies of the Soviet Union, and when Brezhnev tried to dissuade them from implementing them, they accused him of revisionism and continued with a policy that relied solely on agriculture and steel production, which led to a famine that killed more than 50 million people. This is only one example of the decline that the Chinese economy suffered from for decades before it realized the best way to build a solid economy based on diversifying resources and encouraging free productivity under planning by the state (the ruling party), which transformed communism from a closed theory into an open policy resembling imperialism. . This is since China is interested in opening new markets, but not in military policies.

You've outlined the historically trajectory of the social political activities that has enveloped overtime in china, however a policy looks like in the theory, if it is not physically manifesting then that theory is just existing in the papers, from what you just outlined, it shows how they've overtime develop policies that are human oriented and that can expand their economic base to what we currently see in this present time.

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The Chinese are very hard working therefore they create different technologies and utilise their own technologies and materials in their country. The exporting material of China are more but they have less import therefore the economy of a country can also be determined through the value of their exports.

Most of electronic materials are made by China and also it is possible that worth of material is not higher in China as that of in other countries. Most important point is that the population of China is not much higher and the present number of population are all involved in working so therefore they aid in the economy of a country. I never heard that China borrowed money from any country but China allow money to offer to others countries so this is also a positive point for its economy.

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Quote from: Spaceman1000$ on September 04, 2023, 10:26:53 AM

The other day, Pawal7777 was talking about recession hitting CANADA, and that's how other countries are having one difficulty here and there economically. So my point is, what economical indices is china adopting to keep their economy afloat?

The strength of the Chinese economy cannot be explained without returning to its historical process since its liberation from Japanese colonialism during World War II. Under Mao's leadership, China adopted many economic models that were inappropriate for the country's specificities. These policies were a blind imitation of the policies of the Soviet Union, and when Brezhnev tried to dissuade them from implementing them, they accused him of revisionism and continued with a policy that relied solely on agriculture and steel production, which led to a famine that killed more than 50 million people. This is only one example of the decline that the Chinese economy suffered from for decades before it realized the best way to build a solid economy based on diversifying resources and encouraging free productivity under planning by the state (the ruling party), which transformed communism from a closed theory into an open policy resembling imperialism. . This is since China is interested in opening new markets, but not in military policies.

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Quote from: lizarder on November 15, 2023, 08:58:18 AM

Quote from: DrBeer on November 13, 2023, 03:46:03 AM

the growth of China's economy IS. An export-oriented economy cannot actively develop and grow with shrinking markets. And China's economy basically lives by exporting EVERYTHING and EVERYTHING. And the key role is played by Western consumers, who bring revenue in liquid currency. And it is them that China is losing today. Plus the internal crisis, which will lead to lower incomes and taxes, and therefore lower purchasing power inside China, which will also prevent the economy from not only growing, but will force it to reduce turnover, which will worsen the situation. The government cannot subsidize business long and massively to create a pretty picture....

If China can maintain comprehensive exports to markets other than Asia as a new plan they are developing, then I believe China will become one of the strongest countries financially. Of the many products they make, they are generally marketed to Asia because that region is the source of their strength to dominate the market. China is a country that is strong in trade relations and especially its influence on the Asian market which has controlled many sectors and China is also a country that is developing innovation in the field of technology which is now starting to be taken into account by Western countries

The crisis that has occurred in recent years has not only hit China and other countries have also been affected. But their economic strength is much better compared to several countries which are starting to face much bigger problems and their ability to solve the recession problem should be appreciated in the midst of a large population, they are able to provide solutions.

I think at this point you need to understand that China as I speak to you, has been exploring the African Market, majority of the gadgets that are used in Africa from cell phones, laptops, electricity generator just name it, is all been made from china. So Asian alone is not there stronghold, china has diversified into many continents across the globe.

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Quote from: Spaceman1000$ on September 04, 2023, 10:26:53 AM

I see a lot of countries with much lesser population struggling to sustain their economy at this point, with global inflation, the after effect of COVID-19 other multi-dimensional economic problems. Because I can remember vividly that China, are one of the highest hit of COVID-19 but yet they are still waxing stronger economically.

Why is that even though we know that the beginning of the tragedy was there . If we look at it economically, China was quick and responsive in implementing a series of stimulus policies to support their economy after the pandemic and In general China is very important to the direction of the dollar and yuan and recent changes in trends or price movements in the Bitcoin market because they are in the form of their ownership or actions towards Bitcoin so they are wary of inadequate financial market infrastructure and basic supervision of exchanges exists for digital currency.

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Quote from: slapper on November 15, 2023, 10:01:41 AM

China leads the world's Eastward shift, no doubt. Their export diversification strategy beyond Asia? Genius. The Asian market is theirs to rule, and that's just the start. Their goods? Highly skilled, diversified, and innovative. They're altering the game, not simply playing. The West is finally paying attention. Chinese technological expand? It's here and changing the global economy

How about crisis management? China's economic downturn management? Amazing. They've faced hardships, but who hasn't? With a huge population, they've handled these situations admirably. Like constructing a financial empire with style and smarts. They can recover and keep going? That distinguishes them. Folks, things are changing. China is speeding toward becoming the world's largest economy. They're playing their cards right. The Eastern wind is blowing, and it's bringing change

The ability of China in developing the global economic potential is now increasingly calculated to Western countries because they begin to control many infrastructure, industrial and technology sectors. Asia is the largest market for China in marketing its products and now they are starting to explore other countries as an effort to cooperate they are building. Besides imitation products, China also makes their own products at a fairly cheap price so that for developing countries their products are considered to meet their needs because the price standards are quite affordable.

China's economic power has progressed since they headed for the threshold of change and now China has become one of the countries that is strong enough in the economic field. I once read a number of articles that China keeps Yuan's exchange rate in a stable threshold in the middle so that export costs become cheaper. This strategy is considered quite successful so that it brings China to become one of the countries that succeeded in carrying out export and import cooperation to the market in Asia.

Topic: What has really been behind china's economy (Read 1088 times)