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Topic: What's so special about the NAP? - page 13. (Read 20467 times)

full member
Activity: 196
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July 05, 2012, 02:59:00 PM
How so?  NAP is against "aggression" and Law will require enforcement which requires taxation (the first "aggression") then the law will be enforced (the second "aggression").

NAP allows aggression against those who don't play by the rules when on the land of another. If you're on someone else's land in NAP-land, then you must abide by their rules. If those rules include payment of fees, taxes, and so on, then you must pay those fees, taxes, etc., or risk the consequences. Assume one consequence is simple forcible removal of your person from the land.

But see?  In this fictional scenario we already have so many fallacies that I'm hard pressed to count them.  Namely the myth of "Total Ownership" which I just made a brief post illustrating the nonsense of it.

 Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 05, 2012, 02:58:42 PM
How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws?

Because said people won't necessarily have their children wear seat belts. That's why.

Try answering this time.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1011246
full member
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July 05, 2012, 02:56:33 PM
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 02:53:05 PM
How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws?

Because said people won't necessarily have their children wear seat belts. That's why.

Try answering this time.

I just answered. The answer is quoted above.

Oh, Sorry. Thought you were Hawker, there for a second. I should have realized that this sort of insanity was par for the course with you. Never mind, carry on.

Nonetheless, there is a flaw in your seat belt discussion, and it's the children that will pay the price.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 02:51:44 PM
How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws?

Because said people won't necessarily have their children wear seat belts. That's why.

Try answering this time.

I just answered. The answer is quoted above.

Oh, Sorry. Thought you were Hawker, there for a second. I should have realized that this sort of insanity was par for the course with you. Never mind, carry on.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 02:47:17 PM
How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws?

Because said people won't necessarily have their children wear seat belts. That's why.

Try answering this time.

I just answered. The answer is quoted above.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 02:46:31 PM
How so?  NAP is against "aggression" and Law will require enforcement which requires taxation (the first "aggression") then the law will be enforced (the second "aggression").

NAP allows aggression against those who don't play by the rules when on the land of another. If you're on someone else's land in NAP-land, then you must abide by their rules. If those rules include payment of fees, taxes, and so on, then you must pay those fees, taxes, etc., or risk the consequences. Assume one consequence is simple forcible removal of your person from the land.
full member
Activity: 196
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July 05, 2012, 02:43:35 PM

Well that is the fundamental difference between being an ideologue and being a moral human being.  That the ideologue believes he has all the answers because every problem can be solved from the tenants of his ideology, the moral human being realizes that every situation requires different solutions and methods but knows good from evil and can choose the best solution in any given situation; that is if that moral human being as the humility to learn and the intelligence and wisdom to know the consequences of their actions.

I understand that every problem has a different solution, I just believe that resorting to coercion is never a good one.

These people have voted for politicians to enact things like Social Security, the NHS and seat belt laws.  Its how they need society to work.  Any scheme that ignores their need will harm them.

That's a bad thing, isn't it?

How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws? And social security, if it is so strongly desired, can be structured as a private, voluntary charity, same as the NHS. there's o need to shove guns in people's  faces to force them to pay.

The Libertarian must always reference ridiculous "gun's in faces" canards because they need to fundamentally misrepresent power relations in society.
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July 05, 2012, 02:41:39 PM

I'm talking about "true libertarianism" in which even the NAP is rescinded. You are truly free to do whatever you want. Rescinding laws until you're left with only the NAP is arbitrary. Give me a good logical argument why libertarians insist on maintaining a NAP, and yet insist on rescinding lots of other laws.  Or, alternatively, why libertarians insist on creating the NAP, yet refuse to create other laws.


You seem to be confusing laws with a principle

The Problem with NAP as a principle is that under NAP all laws therefore cannot exist.

I think NAP will allow laws to exist. They will be laws made by land barons, and these will evolve into nation states. Please read this post I made earlier in this thread:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1010817

How so?  NAP is against "aggression" and Law will require enforcement which requires taxation (the first "aggression") then the law will be enforced (the second "aggression").
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 02:41:14 PM
How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws?

Because said people won't necessarily have their children wear seat belts. That's why.

Try answering this time.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 05, 2012, 02:39:35 PM

Well that is the fundamental difference between being an ideologue and being a moral human being.  That the ideologue believes he has all the answers because every problem can be solved from the tenants of his ideology, the moral human being realizes that every situation requires different solutions and methods but knows good from evil and can choose the best solution in any given situation; that is if that moral human being as the humility to learn and the intelligence and wisdom to know the consequences of their actions.

I understand that every problem has a different solution, I just believe that resorting to coercion is never a good one.

These people have voted for politicians to enact things like Social Security, the NHS and seat belt laws.  Its how they need society to work.  Any scheme that ignores their need will harm them.

That's a bad thing, isn't it?

How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws? And social security, if it is so strongly desired, can be structured as a private, voluntary charity, same as the NHS. there's o need to shove guns in people's  faces to force them to pay.

It will hurt them because they will be hurt without seat belts, without savings and without medical cover.  There is a need for compulsion - they know it and thats why they vote for it.

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 02:38:30 PM
How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws?

Because said people won't necessarily have their children wear seat belts. That's why.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 02:36:30 PM

Well that is the fundamental difference between being an ideologue and being a moral human being.  That the ideologue believes he has all the answers because every problem can be solved from the tenants of his ideology, the moral human being realizes that every situation requires different solutions and methods but knows good from evil and can choose the best solution in any given situation; that is if that moral human being as the humility to learn and the intelligence and wisdom to know the consequences of their actions.

I understand that every problem has a different solution, I just believe that resorting to coercion is never a good one.

These people have voted for politicians to enact things like Social Security, the NHS and seat belt laws.  Its how they need society to work.  Any scheme that ignores their need will harm them.

That's a bad thing, isn't it?

How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws? And social security, if it is so strongly desired, can be structured as a private, voluntary charity, same as the NHS. there's o need to shove guns in people's  faces to force them to pay.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 02:33:50 PM

I'm talking about "true libertarianism" in which even the NAP is rescinded. You are truly free to do whatever you want. Rescinding laws until you're left with only the NAP is arbitrary. Give me a good logical argument why libertarians insist on maintaining a NAP, and yet insist on rescinding lots of other laws.  Or, alternatively, why libertarians insist on creating the NAP, yet refuse to create other laws.


You seem to be confusing laws with a principle

The Problem with NAP as a principle is that under NAP all laws therefore cannot exist.

I think NAP will allow laws to exist. They will be laws made by land barons, and these will evolve into nation states. Please read this post I made earlier in this thread:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1010817
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 02:30:44 PM

I'm talking about "true libertarianism" in which even the NAP is rescinded. You are truly free to do whatever you want. Rescinding laws until you're left with only the NAP is arbitrary. Give me a good logical argument why libertarians insist on maintaining a NAP, and yet insist on rescinding lots of other laws.  Or, alternatively, why libertarians insist on creating the NAP, yet refuse to create other laws.


You seem to be confusing laws with a principle

The Problem with NAP as a principle is that under NAP all laws therefore cannot exist.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 02:28:32 PM
Slavery may be abhorrent under the NAP but its not illegal is it? In your ideal world, the only protection from slavery is a defence agency.  If a someone is too poor or too stupid to have a defence agency, that's it.  Bang her on the head, chuck her in the back of your car and you have a slave, a pretty girl who will be on her back 7 days a week earning money for you.  Its a big business now; legalise it and it gets even bigger.  

So under your my version of the NAP, you have racial discrimination, lynching, segregation and slavery.  

Fixed that for you.

Laws don't stop lawbreakers from doing bad things.  You seem to ignore the fact that one of your "evils" ("lynching") would prevent the other, slavery. Your poor young lady would have, if nothing else, the protection of her community.

Laws do change people's behaviour.  Law sets a standard of behaviour that the majority of people aspire to.  That's why 35% of people wore seat belts before it was a legal requirement and 94% wear them afterwards.

And that's my problem with the NAP.  It sets the standard as low as it can be.

Well that was the point of the oligarchs who created, funded and promoted Libertarianism; for the State to be weakened and destroyed so they could run amok.  

P.S., Unfortunately, it worked.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 05, 2012, 02:28:07 PM
Read the entire article.  It reinforces the point that laws do change people's behaviour.  Law sets a standard of behaviour that the majority of people aspire to.

I did. But I have to ask you this: If the law is "Never force someone to do something they don't want to", how is that a bad thing?

Over 50% of people switched from not using seat belts to using them when the law changed.  So in the case of seat belts, "Never force someone to do something they don't want to" means a lot of people, especially children, get hurt unnecessarily.  

These people have voted for politicians to enact things like Social Security, the NHS and seat belt laws.  Its how they need society to work.  Any scheme that ignores their need will harm them.

That's a bad thing, isn't it?

full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 02:23:23 PM
... or just an immature guy who hasn't thought things true.

Funny. I believe you just made a typo, and yet it works! Because he's never thought things we say are true. He just can't accept all those little and big truths about the world that are inconvenient to his belief system.

The saddest thing of all, though, is his approach. He takes an ideal out of thin air, and then just insists beyond all reason that he can slap it across the world and make it magically work. I much prefer simply looking at all the problems in the world and all its complexity, and individually trying to tailor a solution to those problems that will work, long term.

Well that is the fundamental difference between being an ideologue and being a moral human being.  That the ideologue believes he has all the answers because every problem can be solved from the tenants of his ideology, the moral human being realizes that every situation requires different solutions and methods but knows good from evil and can choose the best solution in any given situation; that is if that moral human being as the humility to learn and the intelligence and wisdom to know the consequences of their actions.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 02:20:09 PM
Quote
When I put such questions to other libertarians, one common response is a frantic attempt to reinterpret the problem out of existence.

Lets agree not to do that.  If you are for allowing racial discrimination and you are for allowing people to be killed by mobs without the benefit of a trial, its very clear what type of society you are comfortable with.  

I support property rights and the right of private citizens to defend themselves and others. Make of that what you will. Using inflammatory language doesn't suddenly make my position evil. As I said, I'm done arguing this with you. Continue, and I will cease discussing anything with you.

Your proposal is a return to the good old days of legal racial discrimination and to allowing lynching.  That is evil - no inflammatory language is needed.

Inflammatory language highlighted for your reading pleasure. Good bye, Hawker.

Racial discrimination and lynching are what you want to allow.  That is a simple matter of fact supported by your posting history.

If that is inflammatory to you, perhaps you need to re-think what you stand for?

Nope, that means he needs to put out of his mind the inconveniences of this ideology and simply pretend they don't exist.

All ideology is inconvenient (and ultimately unworkable) because it does not and can never fully mesh with the concrete reality of our existence.  That is, there can be no mechanistic methodology of justice or morality, meaning that every act of morality or justice is not fully inclusive of what those terms mean.  Everyone who hasn't read all the relevant Platonic works out there should read them, it's not like what I'm saying should be seen as radical or outlandish, but somehow it is completely misunderstood.

And that is the problem with all major and prevalent ideologies of our modern times: that they lead you through a string of conclusions and lead the reader (the ideologue) to connect that 'last dot', which is, in fact, the intention of that ideologies creator(s).  The last dot of Libertarianism is a great permissiveness toward evil, social degeneracy, oppression and backwardness; but all those things are just 'around the corner' of the ideology, not explicit in the ideology.  Same with the "Greenies", they want a backward and genocidal energy policy, yet they don't want the blood on their hands for the genocide that they are advocating for.  Once again, the 'last dot to connect' is not explicit in the ideology, it is left for the ideologue to conclude on their own and made to feel as some discovery of the nature of our existence, or something to be put out of their mind and denied as if it doesn't exist or as those aren't the logical conclusions of the base arguments or core-shibboleths of the ideology.

 It seems Myrkul has chosen this latter strategy, even going as far to threaten to "Ignore" you on this forum.

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 02:16:21 PM
Read the entire article.  It reinforces the point that laws do change people's behaviour.  Law sets a standard of behaviour that the majority of people aspire to.

I did. But I have to ask you this: If the law is "Never force someone to do something they don't want to", how is that a bad thing?
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