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Topic: What's so special about the NAP? - page 8. (Read 20458 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 05:01:27 PM
Your "gang of bandits" have been sanctified by being called "founding fathers."  Your people have rights that derive from the constitution these "bandits" came up with.  Saying that there is a natural law that over-rides that is OK.  But you have to go all in.  All property, debt and laws have to be totally reset if you want to take away the citizenship rights.


By no means all property, and decidedly not all debt (though certainly a good chunk of it would go bye-bye), and only most laws would need to be reset. Any law which does not infringe upon another's property rights would remain respected, especially since the replacement, free market system is already partially in place. There are numerous agorist communities, at least two of which I know of in the US, and surely others elsewhere.

...snip...
Are you saying you're a "hardcore statist"?

I'm a hardcore realist.  If the state is the best way to deliver something, its great.  If Fedex is a better option, its great too.  The important thing is that the delivery get made in the best way possible.

How can you say this, then deny the reality of a better system when presented one?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 06, 2012, 05:00:01 PM
...snip...
Are you saying you're a "hardcore statist"?

I'm a hardcore realist.  If the state is the best way to deliver something, its great.  If Fedex is a better option, its great.  The important thing is that the delivery get made in the best way possible.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 06, 2012, 04:55:27 PM
Are you about to start telling me that Jesus grants rights and our human laws are just implementations of his will?  Or that some higher natural law exists that we use as a template?

 Cheesy No.  You have property rights because you have ownership of your body. Pure and simple. Because you own your body, you own any products thereof. That includes the result of your labor. Which, naturally, includes your land, provided that you gained it through means not violating others' property rights. I could go on, but I think you can follow my reasoning from here.

Sounds suspiciously like a natural law type thing.  Its as good a rationalisation for law as any but that's all it is.  I prefer most powerful gangster theory myself. As Friedman said in "The Machinery of Freedom", the state is "like a gang of bandits who, while occasionally robbing the villages in their territory, served to keep off other and more rapacious gangs."

Your "gang of bandits" have been sanctified by being called "founding fathers."  Your people have rights that derive from the constitution these "bandits" came up with.  Saying that there is a natural law that over-rides that is OK.  But you have to go all in.  All property, debt and laws have to be totally reset if you want to take away the citizenship rights.

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 04:46:42 PM
Ever notice the hardcore statists are usually Brits?

They seem to generally have a collectivist mindset. I know that's a generalization, but jesus, look throughout history.

What other nation has been as rapacious and violent at imposing their morality on everyone else? The British!

Imposing morality through FORCE is what statism is all about!  Smiley

Oh yeah, and they still have a queen who claims to be descended from the lost tribe of Judea. Kinda crazy? Yeah, they worship a queen...how's that for "hive-minded".


When you have a spare moment, google ad hominem; it will save you a ton of pointless typing.  

BTW, I am certainly not British.

Are you saying you're a "hardcore statist"?

I never heard any claim from him regarding that label. I think he's a human who has opinions. Better opinions, rather than bad opinions are derived from knowledge.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 04:45:34 PM
Are you about to start telling me that Jesus grants rights and our human laws are just implementations of his will?  Or that some higher natural law exists that we use as a template?

 Cheesy No.  You have property rights because you have ownership of your body. Pure and simple. Because you own your body, you own any products thereof. That includes the result of your labor. Which, naturally, includes your land, provided that you gained it through means not violating others' property rights. I could go on, but I think you can follow my reasoning from here.

Not the part about the land. Any land you own is a more superficial ownership. There are limitations.
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
July 06, 2012, 04:44:51 PM
Ever notice the hardcore statists are usually Brits?

They seem to generally have a collectivist mindset. I know that's a generalization, but jesus, look throughout history.

What other nation has been as rapacious and violent at imposing their morality on everyone else? The British!

Imposing morality through FORCE is what statism is all about!  Smiley

Oh yeah, and they still have a queen who claims to be descended from the lost tribe of Judea. Kinda crazy? Yeah, they worship a queen...how's that for "hive-minded".


When you have a spare moment, google ad hominem; it will save you a ton of pointless typing.  

BTW, I am certainly not British.

Are you saying you're a "hardcore statist"?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:42:40 PM
Are you about to start telling me that Jesus grants rights and our human laws are just implementations of his will?  Or that some higher natural law exists that we use as a template?

 Cheesy No.  You have property rights because you have ownership of your body. Pure and simple. Because you own your body, you own any products thereof. That includes the result of your labor. Which, naturally, includes your land, provided that you gained it through means not violating others' property rights. I could go on, but I think you can follow my reasoning from here.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 06, 2012, 04:37:03 PM
Your fellow American have inherited their citizenship rights, such as the right to vote for lawmakers who create social security and seat belt regulation.  You can't just take that right off them either.

But that "right" violates my property rights. Which do you prefer, a society where property rights are respected, or one where the individual's "right" to force other people to do things they don't want to is?

Your property rights and their voting rights both come from your constitution.  What you are saying is that there are areas where rights contradict one another?  Doesn't your constitution have provision for a court system to resolve those contradictions? 

Or are you saying you want a hard reset?  Abolish all property, debt and laws and start again ?

I say again: The Constitution does not grant rights. At best, it enumerates. I am saying that property rights trumps all other rights, because it is from that right which all others flow. If you allow for property rights to be infringed by the opinions of other people, do you really even have property rights?

Are you about to start telling me that Jesus grants rights and our human laws are just implementations of his will?  Or that some higher natural law exists that we use as a template?

Please don't.  Property rights, the right to bear arms, right to free speech, they are all human creations in my opinion. And as such, its really a matter of preference which you feel is most important.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:32:05 PM
Your fellow American have inherited their citizenship rights, such as the right to vote for lawmakers who create social security and seat belt regulation.  You can't just take that right off them either.

But that "right" violates my property rights. Which do you prefer, a society where property rights are respected, or one where the individual's "right" to force other people to do things they don't want to is?

Your property rights and their voting rights both come from your constitution.  What you are saying is that there are areas where rights contradict one another?  Doesn't your constitution have provision for a court system to resolve those contradictions? 

Or are you saying you want a hard reset?  Abolish all property, debt and laws and start again ?

I say again: The Constitution does not grant rights. At best, it enumerates. I am saying that property rights trumps all other rights, because it is from that right which all others flow. If you allow for property rights to be infringed by the opinions of other people, do you really even have property rights?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 06, 2012, 04:26:51 PM
Your fellow American have inherited their citizenship rights, such as the right to vote for lawmakers who create social security and seat belt regulation.  You can't just take that right off them either.

But that "right" violates my property rights. Which do you prefer, a society where property rights are respected, or one where the individual's "right" to force other people to do things they don't want to is?

Your property rights and their voting rights both come from your constitution.  What you are saying is that there are areas where rights contradict one another?  Doesn't your constitution have provision for a court system to resolve those contradictions? 

Or are you saying you want a hard reset?  Abolish all property, debt and laws and start again ?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 06, 2012, 04:21:32 PM
Ever notice the hardcore statists are usually Brits?

They seem to generally have a collectivist mindset. I know that's a generalization, but jesus, look throughout history.

What other nation has been as rapacious and violent at imposing their morality on everyone else? The British!

Imposing morality through FORCE is what statism is all about!  Smiley

Oh yeah, and they still have a queen who claims to be descended from the lost tribe of Judea. Kinda crazy? Yeah, they worship a queen...how's that for "hive-minded".


When you have a spare moment, google ad hominem; it will save you a ton of pointless typing.  

BTW, I am certainly not British.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:20:05 PM
Your fellow American have inherited their citizenship rights, such as the right to vote for lawmakers who create social security and seat belt regulation.  You can't just take that right off them either.

But that "right" violates my property rights. Which do you prefer, a society where property rights are respected, or one where the individual's "right" to force other people to do things they don't want to is?
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1003
July 06, 2012, 04:13:03 PM
Ever notice the hardcore statists are usually Brits?

They seem to generally have a collectivist mindset. I know that's a generalization, but jesus, look throughout history.

What other nation has been as rapacious and violent at imposing their morality on everyone else? The British!

Imposing morality through FORCE is what statism is all about!  Smiley

Oh yeah, and they still have a queen who claims to be descended from the lost tribe of Judea. Kinda crazy? Yeah, they worship a queen...how's that for "hive-minded".
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 06, 2012, 04:09:27 PM
Are you asking me to read the us constitution?  The only part I really bothered with was the second amendment :S  Or are you asking why the constitution has any right to be treated as valid?

The constitution does not grant rights. at best, it enumerates them. What about in your country? What right gives the people in London the right to decide what can and cannot be done to someone's body in Yorkshire?

The free market.  The ultimate free market is in the right to govern people.  Our states are what evolved when every form of governance was an option but only the winners survived.

Well, that's an interesting position. Especially since what I am proposing is nothing but the free market.

Indeed.  Paris Hilton and Prince William are rich retards but they have inherited the wealth and its theirs by right.  You can't just take it off them.  Your fellow American have inherited their citizenship rights, such as the right to vote for lawmakers who create social security and seat belt regulation.  You can't just take that right off them either.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 04:07:24 PM
Are you asking me to read the us constitution?  The only part I really bothered with was the second amendment :S  Or are you asking why the constitution has any right to be treated as valid?

The constitution does not grant rights. at best, it enumerates them. What about in your country? What right gives the people in London the right to decide what can and cannot be done to someone's body in Yorkshire?

The free market.  The ultimate free market is in the right to govern people.  Our states are what evolved when every form of governance was an option but only the winners survived.

Well, that's an interesting position. Especially since what I am proposing is nothing but the free market.

The free market, unregulated, is not in everyone's best interest. It leads to destruction.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:04:26 PM
Are you asking me to read the us constitution?  The only part I really bothered with was the second amendment :S  Or are you asking why the constitution has any right to be treated as valid?

The constitution does not grant rights. at best, it enumerates them. What about in your country? What right gives the people in London the right to decide what can and cannot be done to someone's body in Yorkshire?

The free market.  The ultimate free market is in the right to govern people.  Our states are what evolved when every form of governance was an option but only the winners survived.

Well, that's an interesting position. Especially since what I am proposing is nothing but the free market.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 06, 2012, 04:02:11 PM
Are you asking me to read the us constitution?  The only part I really bothered with was the second amendment :S  Or are you asking why the constitution has any right to be treated as valid?

The constitution does not grant rights. at best, it enumerates them. What about in your country? What right gives the people in London the right to decide what can and cannot be done to someone's body in Yorkshire?

The free market.  The ultimate free market is in the right to govern people.  Our states are what evolved when every form of governance was an option but only the winners survived.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:00:40 PM
Perhaps you could summarize some of her more salient points? Better yet, start a thread on the subject. Either way, I'm all ears.

The book is linked in the first post of the "Book club" thread, as well as in a later post. they link to the same file, however, one stored in my public dropbox. Any discussion of that book is welcome in that thread.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 03:57:56 PM
I don't see how you can get from where we are now to where you want to go.

Spend the evening perusing http://agorism.info/ Perhaps you will see, then.

Given that your last book directly contradicts the ideas that you are coming out with, no thanks.  I finish work in 90 minutes and then go for a drink.  I'm sure that if you have some way to get people to do without seat belt laws, you will be able to find it in the next 90 minutes.

My last book? That would be Healing our World, by Mary Ruwart. Have you read that already?

Perhaps you could summarize some of her more salient points? Better yet, start a thread on the subject. Either way, I'm all ears.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 03:55:35 PM
Are you asking me to read the us constitution?  The only part I really bothered with was the second amendment :S  Or are you asking why the constitution has any right to be treated as valid?

The constitution does not grant rights. at best, it enumerates them. What about in your country? What right gives the people in London the right to decide what can and cannot be done to someone's body in Yorkshire?
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