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Topic: What's so special about the NAP? - page 12. (Read 20458 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 05, 2012, 05:12:53 PM
That would be hard to make work in a game of football.  Utterly impossible across a city of a million.  Requiring everyone to agree means that there can't be an agreement.  You have to settle for a majority.

You're telling me 22 people can't decide on which person they trust enough to let ref? Can 11? If each team picks a ref, then those referees pick one to decide any disagreements, would you agree that that is a fair way to officiate the game?

And I never said the whole city had to agree on one person to decide all their problems, and that would be unworkable, anyway. In practice, it can be as granular as two people agreeing that any disagreement they have will be settled by this other third person. The key word there is agree. Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner is not a fair process.

That 2 wolves and a sheep thing is old.  The wolves decide that one of them gets to own the sheep and sell part of it to the other.

As I said, requiring everyone to agree means that there can't be an agreement.  You have to settle for a majority.

To put it in NAP terms, right now people have the right to vote for a government that makes laws.  A lot of the problem with your approach is that you act like that right should be taken off them.  Its their right and you don't have standing to take it off them.

On a more practical point, as I said about seat belts and I think you are now accepting, law sets a standard that people try to live up to.  That's why if you remove the prohibition on racial or religious discrimination, it will come back.

I'm off to the pub - there is only so much of this excitement I can handle in 1 day.

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 05:03:46 PM
That would be hard to make work in a game of football.  Utterly impossible across a city of a million.  Requiring everyone to agree means that there can't be an agreement.  You have to settle for a majority.

You're telling me 22 people can't decide on which person they trust enough to let ref? Can 11? If each team picks a ref, then those referees pick one to decide any disagreements, would you agree that that is a fair way to officiate the game?

And I never said the whole city had to agree on one person to decide all their problems, and that would be unworkable, anyway. In practice, it can be as granular as two people agreeing that any disagreement they have will be settled by this other third person. The key word there is agree. Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner is not a fair process.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 05, 2012, 05:03:17 PM
In the interest of intellectual honesty, I think it would be fair for those of you who are arguing against non-aggression, and who work in law enforcement, the military, or the courts to go ahead and disclose that here.

Because, it seems like over half of you are not really interested in having a real discussion, and are instead engaged in astro-turfing.  It seems like you are just here to defend the state's monopoly on force for your own, obvious personal gain.  Frankly, it's no different from McDonalds employees going on a recipe forum and trolling it in order to get people to stop cooking.  Well, no different aside from the fact that McDonalds employees actually earn an honest living, rather than extorting tax monies from the rest of us, that is.

So, are any of you honest enough to admit it?

Click on the shops in my sig and you will see what I do for a living.

People can disagree.  People can absolutely hate one another's ideas.  They can try to convince each other of their ideas.  Finding someone who disagrees with you does not mean that they are astroturfing and sock puppets.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 04:59:35 PM
In the interest of intellectual honesty, I think it would be fair for those of you who are arguing against non-aggression, and who work in law enforcement, the military, or the courts to go ahead and disclose that here.

Because, it seems like over half of you are not really interested in having a real discussion, and are instead engaged in astro-turfing.  It seems like you are just here to defend the state's monopoly on force for your own, obvious personal gain.  And it's cluttering up the thread, needlessly.  Frankly, it's no different from McDonalds employees going on a recipe forum and trolling it in order to get people to stop cooking.  Well, no different aside from the fact that McDonalds employees actually earn an honest living, rather than extorting tax monies from the rest of us, that is.

So, are any of you honest enough to admit it?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 05, 2012, 04:54:23 PM
The problem here is the difference between theory and reality.  In theory we are rational, we agree to the rules of football before we go on the pitch and don't need a ref.  In reality, we cannot play a 11 a side team sport without a ref.  And its not the other players - you know that you will probably break the rules yourself.

/sigh...

To put it in your terms, I am not suggesting that there not be a ref. I am suggesting that we should get to choose which ref we will have officiating our game, and that all players must agree.

That would be hard to make work in a game of football.  Utterly impossible across a city of a million.  Requiring everyone to agree means that there can't be an agreement.  You have to settle for a majority.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 04:44:25 PM
The problem here is the difference between theory and reality.  In theory we are rational, we agree to the rules of football before we go on the pitch and don't need a ref.  In reality, we cannot play a 11 a side team sport without a ref.  And its not the other players - you know that you will probably break the rules yourself.

/sigh...

To put it in your terms, I am not suggesting that there not be a ref. I am suggesting that we should get to choose which ref we will have officiating our game, and that all players must agree.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 05, 2012, 04:42:45 PM
How so?  NAP is against "aggression" and Law will require enforcement which requires taxation (the first "aggression") then the law will be enforced (the second "aggression").

Law requires neither involuntary taxation nor aggressive enforcement.


Semantical games fool nobody but children and the ignorant/stupid.


The difference between force and aggression is not a "semantical game".  It is the basis of the non-aggression policy.  This is the reason I keep pointing out that you don't seem to understand NAP.

With respect, you are confusing things that the NAP is against with things that the NAP prevents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_realism#Further_explanation

In law theory, if the legal system doesn't prevent a behaviour, that behaviour is legal.  The NAP does not approve of lynching or abduction but if the victim has no defence agency, a NAP based society does nothing to prevent it.  So its effectively legal under the NAP.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 05, 2012, 04:39:51 PM
When nearly all of society agrees and when it is the cultural wisdom and tradition of that culture then that meme (or whatever you want to call it) is Law.

Then why are we arguing? If everyone agrees that private property is a good thing, then it is.

You are hung up on force.  Its only one element of law.

Law is sort of like the rules of a football game.  We all agree to have a referee as we know that without him, we will cheat.  Think how stupid that is; you get up on a Sunday, drive to a match, get kitted out and start kicking a ball around in a game with rules you know.  You are playing with your friends.  Yet there you are insisting on getting a referee.

Likewise, people like having seat belt laws as otherwise they wouldn't bother wearing them.

I am hung up on force because it is how law gets used. Look at the root word of en-force-ment.

If people want seat belts to be worn, then they will wear theirs, and make their children do so as well. If they want to be on a road where everyone else wears seat belts, then they will patronize roads that require drivers to wear seat belts. If there are enough people who prefer roads that require seat belts, and not enough that do not, the roads that do not will not be able to maintain business.

To put it in your terms, I am not suggesting that there not be a ref. I am suggesting that we should get to choose which ref we will have officiating our game, and that all players must agree.

You've been fairly reasonable in this discussion. I'll remove you from the ignore list.

The problem here is the difference between theory and reality.  In theory we are rational, we agree to the rules of football before we go on the pitch and don't need a ref.  In reality, we cannot play a 11 a side team sport without a ref.  And its not the other players - you know that you will probably break the rules yourself.

I can see you find it hard to accept that half the population is like this.  But when you get used to the idea, things like social security make a lot of sense.  It compels the 50% of the population that are low on will power to save for their retirement.  There is no rational reason why they would not do it anyway.  They would be better off if they did do it anyway.  But they don't - they rely on the law to make them do it.  And any politician who hints at changing that system will be ejected from his seat.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 04:34:02 PM
How so?  NAP is against "aggression" and Law will require enforcement which requires taxation (the first "aggression") then the law will be enforced (the second "aggression").

Law requires neither involuntary taxation nor aggressive enforcement.


Semantical games fool nobody but children and the ignorant/stupid.


The difference between force and aggression is not a "semantical game".  It is the basis of the non-aggression policy.  This is the reason I keep pointing out that you don't seem to understand NAP.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 04:26:05 PM
When nearly all of society agrees and when it is the cultural wisdom and tradition of that culture then that meme (or whatever you want to call it) is Law.

Then why are we arguing? If everyone agrees that private property is a good thing, then it is.

You are hung up on force.  Its only one element of law.

Law is sort of like the rules of a football game.  We all agree to have a referee as we know that without him, we will cheat.  Think how stupid that is; you get up on a Sunday, drive to a match, get kitted out and start kicking a ball around in a game with rules you know.  You are playing with your friends.  Yet there you are insisting on getting a referee.

Likewise, people like having seat belt laws as otherwise they wouldn't bother wearing them.

I am hung up on force because it is how law gets used. Look at the root word of en-force-ment.

If people want seat belts to be worn, then they will wear theirs, and make their children do so as well. If they want to be on a road where everyone else wears seat belts, then they will patronize roads that require drivers to wear seat belts. If there are enough people who prefer roads that require seat belts, and not enough that do not, the roads that do not will not be able to maintain business.

To put it in your terms, I am not suggesting that there not be a ref. I am suggesting that we should get to choose which ref we will have officiating our game, and that all players must agree.

You've been fairly reasonable in this discussion. I'll remove you from the ignore list.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 05, 2012, 04:13:21 PM
It will hurt them because they will be hurt without seat belts, without savings and without medical cover.  There is a need for compulsion - they know it and thats why they vote for it.

So, the people that care so much about seat belt safety that they are willing to force other people to wear them, won't wear them themselves?

Sorry I missed this one, it got lost in the confusion with FA's BS.

You are hung up on force.  Its only one element of law.

Law is sort of like the rules of a football game.  We all agree to have a referee as we know that without him, we will cheat.  Think how stupid that is; you get up on a Sunday, drive to a match, get kitted out and start kicking a ball around in a game with rules you know.  You are playing with your friends.  Yet there you are insisting on getting a referee.

Likewise, people like having seat belt laws as otherwise they wouldn't bother wearing them.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 04:11:06 PM
How so?  NAP is against "aggression" and Law will require enforcement which requires taxation (the first "aggression") then the law will be enforced (the second "aggression").

Law requires neither involuntary taxation nor aggressive enforcement.

Hey Ben, are you going to respond to my earlier post or...?

When I have a few minutes, yes I intend to.

Good, glad to hear it.

That's why I returned to this forum, it's members repeatedly surprised my expectations.

 Cheesy
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 04:09:21 PM
How so?  NAP is against "aggression" and Law will require enforcement which requires taxation (the first "aggression") then the law will be enforced (the second "aggression").

Law requires neither involuntary taxation nor aggressive enforcement.


Semantical games fool nobody but children and the ignorant/stupid.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 04:08:46 PM
You take care of your own damn kids, and let me take care of mine.

Not if evidence suggests you're risking unnecessary harm by refusing to have them buckle up.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 04:08:08 PM
Nonetheless, there is a flaw in your seat belt discussion, and it's the children that will pay the price.

"Oh, think of the children!" has been used as the marching slogan for all kinds of horrible programs. Parental responsibility is just as important as personal responsibility. You take care of your own damn kids, and let me take care of mine.

private property exists because we all believe it should exist

Well, there you go. We all believe it should exist. therefore, it does. No law required.

Another slam dunk for the 2-dimensionally simplistic world that is Libertarianism!



When nearly all of society agrees and when it is the cultural wisdom and tradition of that culture then that meme (or whatever you want to call it) is Law.  That's fundamentally what Law's are and should be.

Again, this conversation has to be scuttled in order to preserve and cartoon world of Libertarianism.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 04:06:58 PM
How so?  NAP is against "aggression" and Law will require enforcement which requires taxation (the first "aggression") then the law will be enforced (the second "aggression").

Law requires neither involuntary taxation nor aggressive enforcement.

Hey Ben, are you going to respond to my earlier post or...?

When I have a few minutes, yes I intend to.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 05, 2012, 04:05:42 PM
How so?  NAP is against "aggression" and Law will require enforcement which requires taxation (the first "aggression") then the law will be enforced (the second "aggression").

NAP allows aggression against those who don't play by the rules when on the land of another. If you're on someone else's land in NAP-land, then you must abide by their rules. If those rules include payment of fees, taxes, and so on, then you must pay those fees, taxes, etc., or risk the consequences. Assume one consequence is simple forcible removal of your person from the land.

But see?  In this fictional scenario we already have so many fallacies that I'm hard pressed to count them.  Namely the myth of "Total Ownership" which I just made a brief post illustrating the nonsense of it.

 Smiley

But that's my point about ownership. Hawk is really a nation and he has no reason or desire to extend the concept of ownership that he enjoys to Mike.

NAPsters have mistaken assumptions about ownership.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 04:05:12 PM
It will hurt them because they will be hurt without seat belts, without savings and without medical cover.  There is a need for compulsion - they know it and thats why they vote for it.

So, the people that care so much about seat belt safety that they are willing to force other people to wear them, won't wear them themselves?

Sorry I missed this one, it got lost in the confusion with FA's BS.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 05, 2012, 04:02:46 PM
This is basically an argument between a tiny minority imposing its will upon society "for their own good", versus individual freedom and responsibility.

Freedom allows for voluntary segregation, true, and that is what tends to happen in most societies.  But, if you want to argue extremes, then what you are arguing for is the equivalent of the Taliban.

And, as an American, I don't see anyone "forcing" segregation.  The only force I see, in American society at least, is on the part of the liberal Taliban, forcing integration.

Hey Ben, are you going to respond to my earlier post or...?

I was hoping you would try and rebuke some of my counter-arguments, or is that out of the question?

 Wink

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 05, 2012, 04:02:36 PM
Nonetheless, there is a flaw in your seat belt discussion, and it's the children that will pay the price.

"Oh, think of the children!" has been used as the marching slogan for all kinds of horrible programs. Parental responsibility is just as important as personal responsibility. You take care of your own damn kids, and let me take care of mine.

private property exists because we all believe it should exist

Well, there you go. We all believe it should exist. therefore, it does. No law required.
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