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Topic: What's so special about the NAP? - page 3. (Read 20458 times)

sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
July 08, 2012, 09:52:26 PM
Is that your opinion?  Or is that somehow, like Moonshadow thought, a non-arbitrary definition?  Just to be clear: I disagree,
It doesn't really matter what you actually did perceive because only reasonable perceptions justify the pre-emptive use of force. Whether your perception of a threat is reasonable or not would depend on the full context. But if it's not objectively reasonable, it doesn't matter that you actually felt threatened. Someone might actually feel threatened around tall men on dark streets, but that doesn't justify using force against them.
Please CLEARLY define "reasonable" in this context, in such a way as it is clear to EVERYONE when there is, or is not, a threat - let's be honest, we're talking about mortal threats here, it would be a terrible thing if someone got it wrong and two NAPsters ended up, you know, killing each other over a misunderstanding.

When you have done that, please explain how that is not like a "law", and why what *you* think should trump what *I* think (I happen to think my perception is perfectly reasonable).


That's a perfectly valid opinion.  If I say my opinion is that "all property is theft" does that make it OK to take her money?  If not, why are your opinions special?
If you want to try to make a reasoned case that "all property is theft", I'll be happy to listen to it. But you can't respond to a reasoned argument with "That's what you think".  My opinions are special because I present reasoned arguments to back them up. You are welcome to engage those arguments or ignore them, but if you aren't going to engage them, I request that you not pretend to.
Ok.  Here is an argument.  Natural law would suggest there is no such thing as private property, save what you can actually carry on your back and actively defend.  Think about it - humans are the only species with such extensive property rights. All other animals must individually defend their property, be that a fresh kill, or a nest.  Therefore, I reject private property.  If I find your Ferrari undefended, I may claim it.  Your opinion is different, but that is of no consequence.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
July 08, 2012, 09:51:22 PM
As I said, there's not much any system can do when the majority of a society is bigoted against a particular group, and most will even enshrine that bigotry into law. Of the options I am aware of, NAP handles it best: You may hate them all you like, and you may refuse to deal with them, but you may not aggress against them.
Ahhhhhhhhh I get it. I think you are suggesting that, in order to eliminate racism, all racist people must suddenly stop acting racist. Now I understand why I never got it until now.

But, more simply, until such a time as some wealthy and powerful philanthropic entity decides to eliminate slavery for no benefit of its own, a NAP society will tolerate slavery; again in the sense that it will not actively eliminate it. True or false?
False. Any person who sees slavery, and finds it abhorrent, can begin the process of ending that particular instantiation of it, in much the same way as it is handled today. The primary difference being that rather than calling the police, he will call his police.
So any random person can engage in violence against the pimp?  I understood that violence was only justified as self-defense under the NAP. But please answer clearly - you already stated there is no economic argument for eliminating slavery in NAP land. Does the elimination of slavery then rely on the kindness of strangers?  See how you answered; you seem to be contradicting yourself:
  • fergalish: "until some kind stranger decides to eliminate slavery, a NAP society will tolerate it insofar as it will not be actively eliminated, true or false?"
  • myrkul: "false. Any person can take it upon themselves to eliminate any instance of slavery at any time."
But now, are you suggesting that any person can take violent action to eliminate (or perhaps even prevent?) any perceived violation of NAP, even if they themselves are not the victim?

I think you are not factoring all risks that the shady repair man is taking, but you are also forgetting that the insurance company pays the damages to the pedestrian, as well as to the car, and all the driver pays is the premiums. The insurance agency would have significant incentive to do the tracking, and there are no laws mandating tire treads, or paint layer patterns. Only databases in law enforcement agencies hands, and there's no reason that those databases would disappear, only change hands to the protection agencies, or even the insurance agencies themselves.
I must indeed be underestimating shady repair man's risks. What are they? He is merely fixing someone's car. Is he obliged to carry out checks before doing so or is he free to conduct his business as he wishes? Are the victims of hit-n-runs entitled to engage in violence against him on the possibility that one of his clients is a hit-n-runner?
On average, the sum of the premiums is at least equal to the sum of the damages and compensations.  Therefore it would be cheaper for all drivers to collectively not pay insurance and fund all damages and compensation claims from their own pockets, simply because then they're not paying the insurance company's internal costs and profits.  In case the driver has no insurance, which insurance company pays?

Even if it was this random stranger?
How do you imagine the average Iraqi feels about that guy?
Are you suggesting that people will need to travel armed like that under NAP?  I hope not.  But in any case, I might have a very good aim with poisoned darts and a blowgun.  You're not answering the question:  If I perceive a threat, am I justified in responding with violence EVEN IF (unknown to me) no threat was intended?
To answer your question, I'm sure the average Iraqi doesn't like him.  But then, he doesn't intend any harm against pro-NAP Iraqis.  By your argument, they have no cause to dislike him. Indeed those who were persecuted under Hussein's rule might even have cause to welcome him.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 08, 2012, 02:20:24 PM
Because he got that right.  Re-read the chapter on revolutions.  Then you won't want one Smiley

Never said I did. Hasn't been a violent revolution that resulted lasting freedom... ever.

Then we are left with the state as a rock solid entity.  Fine. 

How, exactly did we get from "Violent revolutions don't work" to "The state is a rock-solid entity"?

agorism.info

Been there - its very nice.  People pay their taxes and at their own expense replicate the stuff they are supposed to get for their taxes.  Very nice.

Yeah... that? No.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 08, 2012, 01:57:08 PM
Because he got that right.  Re-read the chapter on revolutions.  Then you won't want one Smiley

Never said I did. Hasn't been a violent revolution that resulted lasting freedom... ever.

Then we are left with the state as a rock solid entity.  Fine. 

How, exactly did we get from "Violent revolutions don't work" to "The state is a rock-solid entity"?

agorism.info

Been there - its very nice.  People pay their taxes and at their own expense replicate the stuff they are supposed to get for their taxes.  Very nice.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 08, 2012, 01:55:12 PM
Because he got that right.  Re-read the chapter on revolutions.  Then you won't want one Smiley

Never said I did. Hasn't been a violent revolution that resulted lasting freedom... ever.

Then we are left with the state as a rock solid entity.  Fine. 

How, exactly did we get from "Violent revolutions don't work" to "The state is a rock-solid entity"?

agorism.info
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 08, 2012, 08:58:09 AM
Because he got that right.  Re-read the chapter on revolutions.  Then you won't want one Smiley

Never said I did. Hasn't been a violent revolution that resulted lasting freedom... ever.

Then we are left with the state as a rock solid entity.  Fine. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 08, 2012, 08:08:21 AM
Because he got that right.  Re-read the chapter on revolutions.  Then you won't want one Smiley

Never said I did. Hasn't been a violent revolution that resulted lasting freedom... ever.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 08, 2012, 08:04:20 AM
You mean a revolution and abolish the state?  Please, why do you keep coming back to ideas that "The Machinery of Freedom" thoroughly debunked.

Perhaps because he is not the only libertarian thinker I respect, and I believe he might be wrong about a few things? Why do you keep coming back to him as defense?

Because he got that right.  Re-read the chapter on revolutions.  Then you won't want one Smiley
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 08, 2012, 07:40:45 AM
You mean a revolution and abolish the state?  Please, why do you keep coming back to ideas that "The Machinery of Freedom" thoroughly debunked.

Perhaps because he is not the only libertarian thinker I respect, and I believe he might be wrong about a few things? Why do you keep coming back to him as defense?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 08, 2012, 07:38:50 AM
The Greek people have economic problems.  The state itself is rock solid.  No border disputes and no prospect of being invaded.  The Greek people have to make political decisions but no matter what they decide, the Greek state is not going away.

With what will they pay their government workers?

Will they work for free?

And what say you to throwing off the thugs?

You mean a revolution and abolish the state?  Please, why do you keep coming back to ideas that "The Machinery of Freedom" thoroughly debunked.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 08, 2012, 07:35:31 AM
The Greek people have economic problems.  The state itself is rock solid.  No border disputes and no prospect of being invaded.  The Greek people have to make political decisions but no matter what they decide, the Greek state is not going away.

With what will they pay their government workers?

Will they work for free?

And what say you to throwing off the thugs?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 08, 2012, 07:32:49 AM
I agree that is their origin.  Your found fathers were terrorists right up until they won.  Then they were freedom fighters.  If they had lost, Washington and his gang would have been hanged and forgotten.

Name one major state that is having stability issues.  Please don't waste time talking about places like Mali or South Sudan.

Then what I propose should not seem too bizarre: Throw off the thugs.

Greece. For that matter, the entire fucking euro zone.

The Greek people have economic problems.  The state itself is rock solid.  No border disputes and no prospect of being invaded.  The Greek people have to make political decisions but no matter what they decide, the Greek state is not going away.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 08, 2012, 07:29:09 AM
I agree that is their origin.  Your found fathers were terrorists right up until they won.  Then they were freedom fighters.  If they had lost, Washington and his gang would have been hanged and forgotten.

Name one major state that is having stability issues.  Please don't waste time talking about places like Mali or South Sudan.

Then what I propose should not seem too bizarre: Throw off the thugs.

Greece. For that matter, the entire fucking euro zone.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 08, 2012, 07:26:03 AM
Sad  Its like you keep forgetting "The Machinery of Freedom."
Quote
I would still regard the government as a criminal organization, but one which was, by a freak of fate, temporarily useful. It would be like a gang of bandits who, while
occasionally robbing the villages in their territory, served to keep off other and more rapacious gangs.

None of the major states is showing signs of falling apart. 

So you do agree that the state is a gang of thugs who set up a protection racket, and kept of worse thugs, then?

And if you don't see the cracks forming, you may need to see an optometrist.

I agree that is their origin.  Your found fathers were terrorists right up until they won.  Then they were freedom fighters.  If they had lost, Washington and his gang would have been hanged and forgotten.

Name one major state that is having stability issues.  Please don't waste time talking about places like Mali or South Sudan.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 08, 2012, 07:23:02 AM
Sad  Its like you keep forgetting "The Machinery of Freedom."
Quote
I would still regard the government as a criminal organization, but one which was, by a freak of fate, temporarily useful. It would be like a gang of bandits who, while
occasionally robbing the villages in their territory, served to keep off other and more rapacious gangs.

None of the major states is showing signs of falling apart. 

So you do agree that the state is a gang of thugs who set up a protection racket, and kept of worse thugs, then?

And if you don't see the cracks forming, you may need to see an optometrist.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 08, 2012, 07:17:22 AM
I have read his conclusions and have to say he doesn't' seem to see that states have evolved in the free market of global competition for the right to govern.  That makes pretty well everything he says bogus doesn't it?

Or....

Your contention that they did is.

He goes down to first principles, and assumes he is wrong. Can you say the same?

Of course not. Its a matter of historical record that states greedily compete for the right to govern.  Free areas get occupied.  Weak states get conquered.  Its a Darwinian struggle and the states we have today are ones that have proved very competitive.  The older a state, the more likely it is that they have found a reliable system of government.

We don't need to theorise this.

But that doesn't specify where states come from, only how they got better over time. The nicest mafia is still a mafia.

You'll also notice that they ALL seem to be kinda... I donno... falling apart right at the moment?

Sad  Its like you keep forgetting "The Machinery of Freedom."
Quote
I would still regard the government as a criminal organization, but one which was, by a freak of fate, temporarily useful. It would be like a gang of bandits who, while
occasionally robbing the villages in their territory, served to keep off other and more rapacious gangs.

None of the major states is showing signs of falling apart. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 08, 2012, 07:13:32 AM
I have read his conclusions and have to say he doesn't' seem to see that states have evolved in the free market of global competition for the right to govern.  That makes pretty well everything he says bogus doesn't it?

Or....

Your contention that they did is.

He goes down to first principles, and assumes he is wrong. Can you say the same?

Of course not. Its a matter of historical record that states greedily compete for the right to govern.  Free areas get occupied.  Weak states get conquered.  Its a Darwinian struggle and the states we have today are ones that have proved very competitive.  The older a state, the more likely it is that they have found a reliable system of government.

We don't need to theorise this.

But that doesn't specify where states come from, only how they got better over time. The nicest mafia is still a mafia.

You'll also notice that they ALL seem to be kinda... I donno... falling apart right at the moment?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 08, 2012, 07:10:00 AM
I have read his conclusions and have to say he doesn't' seem to see that states have evolved in the free market of global competition for the right to govern.  That makes pretty well everything he says bogus doesn't it?

Or....

Your contention that they did is.

He goes down to first principles, and assumes he is wrong. Can you say the same?

Of course not. Its a matter of historical record that states greedily compete for the right to govern.  Free areas get occupied.  Weak states get conquered.  Its a Darwinian struggle and the states we have today are ones that have proved very competitive.  The older a state, the more likely it is that they have found a reliable system of government.

We don't need to theorise this.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 08, 2012, 07:04:51 AM
I have read his conclusions and have to say he doesn't' seem to see that states have evolved in the free market of global competition for the right to govern.  That makes pretty well everything he says bogus doesn't it?

Or....

Your contention that they did is.

He goes down to first principles, and assumes he is wrong. Can you say the same?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 08, 2012, 07:02:54 AM
No thanks.  I'll skip both that and the Natural Law Party sites.  A detailed examination of why you prefer one thing to another may be of interest to you.  I don't share your preference so why would I waste my time?

Afraid it'll knock you off that high horse of yours?

Afraid its like being asked to go to church and to let Jesus into my life. 

Oohhh... you fear conversion. If you fear you might find out you are wrong, you know already.

I have read his conclusions and have to say he doesn't' seem to see that states have evolved in the free market of global competition for the right to govern.  That makes pretty well everything he says bogus doesn't it?
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