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Topic: What's so special about the NAP? - page 6. (Read 20458 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 07, 2012, 03:42:31 PM
OK but to replace this wretched system, you have to have 100% agreement.

No, I don't. I simply start offering my system alongside the monopoly. Since it is better, it will win out in the market.

Not in your or my lifetime - you may be right but it won't be fast.

You may be surprised. It's already doing quite well in New Hampshire.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 07, 2012, 03:36:47 PM
OK but to replace this wretched system, you have to have 100% agreement.

No, I don't. I simply start offering my system alongside the monopoly. Since it is better, it will win out in the market.

Not in your or my lifetime - you may be right but it won't be fast.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 07, 2012, 03:31:17 PM
OK but to replace this wretched system, you have to have 100% agreement.

No, I don't. I simply start offering my system alongside the monopoly. Since it is better, it will win out in the market.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 07, 2012, 03:27:38 PM
Ah good, you have left behind the "natural law" crap and now you say that you have a better system.

On your substantive point, what you are saying is that we have to accept all existing laws unless there is 100% vote to change them.  Since that can't happen, it means that we keep all existing laws forever.

Sadly, you are incorrect on both suppositions. My position is still based on the fact that you own you and I own me, and neither of us own any of the other. I do say that I have a better system, however.

And no, I am not suggesting we leave this wretched system in place, and require a 100% vote to change anything. What I am suggesting is to completely replace this idiotic monopoly with a market system, where each person votes for their laws in the same way each person votes for their chips (crisps, not what we yanks call fries). You go into the market, there is not one, but many different brands, and you select the one you prefer, and you get it, and the person who wants another brand doesn't have to fight you to get the store to carry it.

OK but to replace this wretched system, you have to have 100% agreement.  Or do you get one "free hit" and then its 100% agreement required to change it afterwards.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 07, 2012, 03:25:36 PM
Ah good, you have left behind the "natural law" crap and now you say that you have a better system.

On your substantive point, what you are saying is that we have to accept all existing laws unless there is 100% vote to change them.  Since that can't happen, it means that we keep all existing laws forever.

Sadly, you are incorrect on both suppositions. My position is still based on the fact that you own you and I own me, and neither of us own any of the other. I do say that I have a better system, however.

And no, I am not suggesting we leave this wretched system in place, and require a 100% vote to change anything. What I am suggesting is to completely replace this idiotic monopoly with a market system, where each person votes for their laws in the same way each person votes for their chips (crisps, not what we yanks call fries). You go into the market, there is not one, but many different brands, and you select the one you prefer, and you get it, and the person who wants another brand doesn't have to fight you to get the store to carry it.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 07, 2012, 03:18:09 PM
...snip...

Vote all you want. For your leaders and your laws. The beauty of the free market system is that when you vote in it, you get exactly what you vote for. If you rely on democracy, I may be in the majority, and disagree with you, and then I have voted for your laws and leaders, and your vote has been ignored.

Ah good, you have left behind the "natural law" crap and now you say that you have a better system.

On your substantive point, what you are saying is that we have to accept all existing laws unless there is 100% vote to change them.  Since that can't happen, it means that we keep all existing laws forever.

I don't think that's a good idea.  I'd prefer to be in the minority and see things change than have things locked in place.  Bad changes can get undone and if I in a minority now I can be in a majority in a few years.
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 07, 2012, 03:12:26 PM
That's a perfectly valid opinion.  If I say my opinion is that "all property is theft" does that make it OK to take her money?  If not, why are your opinions special?

If your opinion is that all property is theft, you are perfectly welcome to divest yourself of all your property. Your opinions can affect you all you want. It's when you start trying to force your opinions on others that it becomes problematic. If you decide to force "all property is theft" on her, you are violating her rights, in the same way that when she votes to tell me what I can or cannot do with my money or body, she is violating mine.

Exactly! You are free not to vote yourself.  But you are not free to tell me what to do with my vote.  You certainly don't have any right to take away someone's voting rights any more than you can take away their property rights.

Vote all you want. For your leaders and your laws. The beauty of the free market system is that when you vote in it, you get exactly what you vote for. If you rely on democracy, I may be in the majority, and disagree with you, and then I have voted for your laws and leaders, and your vote has been ignored.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 07, 2012, 03:06:45 PM
That's a perfectly valid opinion.  If I say my opinion is that "all property is theft" does that make it OK to take her money?  If not, why are your opinions special?

If your opinion is that all property is theft, you are perfectly welcome to divest yourself of all your property. Your opinions can affect you all you want. It's when you start trying to force your opinions on others that it becomes problematic. If you decide to force "all property is theft" on her, you are violating her rights, in the same way that when she votes to tell me what I can or cannot do with my money or body, she is violating mine.

Exactly! You are free not to vote yourself.  But you are not free to tell me what to do with my vote.  You certainly don't have any right to take away someone's voting rights any more than you can take away their property rights.

EDIT: it sort of bothers me that you keep going back to "natural law" type arguments.  Please remember the "Problems" chapter in "The Machinery of Freedom."  There is no viable natural law argument that leads to a commonly agreed set of rules.  People have been looking for centuries and as Friedman says, the rate of progress is very very slow.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 07, 2012, 03:05:10 PM
That's a perfectly valid opinion.  If I say my opinion is that "all property is theft" does that make it OK to take her money?  If not, why are your opinions special?

If your opinion is that all property is theft, you are perfectly welcome to divest yourself of all your property. Your opinions can affect you all you want. It's when you start trying to force your opinions on others that it becomes problematic. If you decide to force "all property is theft" on her, you are violating her rights, in the same way that when she votes to tell me what I can or cannot do with my money or body, she is violating mine.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 07, 2012, 02:51:56 PM
That's a very heart-felt, if inaccurate, response.  But its avoiding the question.  What right do you have to take her voting rights off Paris Hilton ?  And do I have the same right to take her property off her?  Both rights are legal creations of US law and as such both have equal standing don't they?
No, they don't have equal standing. A "right to do what you wish with what is yours" does not have the same standing as a "right to tell other people what they can and cannot do with what is theirs". One is justly within one's scope of moral authority and the other makes a mockery of the concept of rights.


That's a perfectly valid opinion.  If I say my opinion is that "all property is theft" does that make it OK to take her money?  If not, why are your opinions special?
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
July 07, 2012, 02:40:53 PM
That's a very heart-felt, if inaccurate, response.  But its avoiding the question.  What right do you have to take her voting rights off Paris Hilton ?  And do I have the same right to take her property off her?  Both rights are legal creations of US law and as such both have equal standing don't they?
No, they don't have equal standing. A "right to do what you wish with what is yours" does not have the same standing as a "right to tell other people what they can and cannot do with what is theirs". One is justly within one's scope of moral authority and the other makes a mockery of the concept of rights.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 07, 2012, 02:34:41 PM
Quote
The right for you to choose your leader is valid. The right for you to choose my leader is not. It really is that simple.

We've been through this; Paris Hilton has the right to a gazillion dollars and the right to vote.  You have no rational basis to say that one right is "valid" and another is not.  

Yes, we have. I don't give a flying shit how much money Paris Hilton has. Nothing gives her the right to say what I can or cannot do with mine. I do not try to tell her what to do with hers.

That's a very heart-felt, if inaccurate, response.  But its avoiding the question.  What right do you have to take her voting rights off Paris Hilton ?  And do I have the same right to take her property off her?  Both rights are legal creations of US law and as such both have equal standing don't they?

No, they do not. I'm not taking the "voting rights" away from her, she can vote all she wants... for her leaders and her laws. Just not mine. The best part of a free market systems is that everything she votes for, she gets. Compare that to democracy, where she may not get what she votes for, for I may be in the majority, and disagree.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 07, 2012, 01:12:33 PM
I don't give a flying shit how much money Paris Hilton has. Nothing gives her the right to say what I can or cannot do with mine.

Then why would you be an advocate of the NAP, where the rich will clearly exert control over those who have much less money?

Myrkul,

Please answer.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 07, 2012, 12:59:45 PM
Quote
The right for you to choose your leader is valid. The right for you to choose my leader is not. It really is that simple.

We've been through this; Paris Hilton has the right to a gazillion dollars and the right to vote.  You have no rational basis to say that one right is "valid" and another is not.  

Yes, we have. I don't give a flying shit how much money Paris Hilton has. Nothing gives her the right to say what I can or cannot do with mine. I do not try to tell her what to do with hers.

That's a very heart-felt, if inaccurate, response.  But its avoiding the question.  What right do you have to take her voting rights off Paris Hilton ?  And do I have the same right to take her property off her?  Both rights are legal creations of US law and as such both have equal standing don't they?



legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
July 07, 2012, 04:16:08 AM
Question:

Consider the scenario where in a society of many thousands (or millions), one in a hundred individuals engage in activity X on their property that goes undiscovered. Let's assume that activity X, on occasion leads to event Y, which hurts people.

Let's continue to assume that activity X continues to go undiscovered almost all the time.

Now, let's assume that there are ways to limit the amount of activity X through regulation or laws, without actually violating a person's privacy - i.e search and seizure. What is your opinion on this matter?
It's really hard to give an answer without specifics. The key issues are the mechanism by which it hurts people, the amount of harm it does, and whether the activity is within the scope of the moral authority of the people who engage in it.

Quote
How do the victims who have no next of kin receive restitution?
That depends on the mechanism of harm. Hypothetically, if the action is something like making a chemical on your own property that can blow up and hurt/kill your neighbors, then they can sue for the damages. Society could require insurance as a pre-condition to engaging in behavior that poses risk to others.

Quote
Would it not be better to try and prevent Y type events?
There's no way to know. The information necessary to make this judgment generally doesn't exist.

Quote
What if most of society deems activity X to be unnecessary?
Then most of society will refrain from activity X and minimize the harm done. Presumably, those who do it deem its benefits to exceed its harms. The key thing is to make sure their calculation includes all the harms.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 07, 2012, 03:21:18 AM
I don't give a flying shit how much money Paris Hilton has. Nothing gives her the right to say what I can or cannot do with mine.

Then why would you be an advocate of the NAP, where the rich will clearly exert control over those who have much less money?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 07, 2012, 03:16:14 AM
Quote
The right for you to choose your leader is valid. The right for you to choose my leader is not. It really is that simple.

We've been through this; Paris Hilton has the right to a gazillion dollars and the right to vote.  You have no rational basis to say that one right is "valid" and another is not.  

Yes, we have. I don't give a flying shit how much money Paris Hilton has. Nothing gives her the right to say what I can or cannot do with mine. I do not try to tell her what to do with hers.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 07, 2012, 03:09:27 AM

I'm doing end of day accounts and heading out.  If I summarise where I think we have got to:
1. People use laws to set a standard so that they don't have to use willpower themselves.  Social security, the NHS and seat belt laws are examples of this.
2. Evidence suggests that 50% of people actually need the laws; they don't save, buy insurance or wear seat belts otherwise.
3. They enthusiastically vote for politicians who create these laws.
4. Usually,the rights to do this is inherited in much the same way property is inherited.
5. If you are saying that these rights are not valid, then no rights are valid.

I am not saying you agree with all this but at least you understand one of the reasons why people vote the way they do.

My question to you is: what is the problem that you want to solve?  The system works - what reason do you have for wanting a reset ?

The right for you to choose your leader is valid. The right for you to choose my leader is not. It really is that simple.

We've been through this; Paris Hilton has the right to a gazillion dollars and the right to vote.  You have no rational basis to say that one right is "valid" and another is not. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 07, 2012, 12:42:27 AM
How do the victims who have no next of kin receive restitution?

Well, since you have now specified that Event Y is lethal, the victims don't receive restitution anyway. Those who are harmed by the death of the victim do. If you can find someone whom nobody is harmed by their death, I'd be very surprised indeed.

Would it not be better to try and prevent Y type events?

To be sure. A high enough restitution cost would make safety measures to reduce the chances of Event Y happening more cost effective. If the restitution cost is high enough, it might even stop Activity X, as "too risky".

What if most of society deems activity X to be unnecessary?

Just as Joel stated, that is irrelevant.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 07, 2012, 12:29:12 AM
What is your opinion on this matter?

Event Y happens, restitution is paid, everyone goes away, not necessarily happy, but at least as satisfied as possible, considering that Event Y did happen, and people did get hurt.

I kind of meant that people died. Statistically, we know there are others doing activity X, and sooner or later, another event Y will happen.

The answer doesn't change, just the amount of restitution.

How do the victims who have no next of kin receive restitution? Would it not be better to try and prevent Y type events? What if most of society deems activity X to be unnecessary?
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