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Topic: What's so special about the NAP? - page 7. (Read 20467 times)

hero member
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 11:23:42 PM
What is your opinion on this matter?

Event Y happens, restitution is paid, everyone goes away, not necessarily happy, but at least as satisfied as possible, considering that Event Y did happen, and people did get hurt.

I kind of meant that people died. Statistically, we know there are others doing activity X, and sooner or later, another event Y will happen.

The answer doesn't change, just the amount of restitution.
hero member
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July 06, 2012, 11:12:17 PM
What is your opinion on this matter?

Event Y happens, restitution is paid, everyone goes away, not necessarily happy, but at least as satisfied as possible, considering that Event Y did happen, and people did get hurt.

I kind of meant that people died. Statistically, we know there are others doing activity X, and sooner or later, another event Y will happen.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 10:56:02 PM
What is your opinion on this matter?

Event Y happens, restitution is paid, everyone goes away, not necessarily happy, but at least as satisfied as possible, considering that Event Y did happen, and people did get hurt.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 10:42:42 PM
Mr. Ybarra got a lot of positives by climbing and kayaking. How many positives did Billy get from not wearing a seat belt?
The beauty of living in a free society is that I don't have to justify my climbing, kayaking, smoking, or not wearing a seat belt. I can do it if I choose to. Those who argue against a free society don't seem to get this. Billy doesn't have to justify his choices to you. The disagreement is entirely over who makes the decision, not what decision is the right one.

Question:

Consider the scenario where in a society of many thousands (or millions), one in a hundred individuals engage in activity X on their property that goes undiscovered. Let's assume that activity X, on occasion leads to event Y, which hurts people.

Let's continue to assume that activity X continues to go undiscovered almost all the time.

Now, let's assume that there are ways to limit the amount of activity X through regulation or laws, without actually violating a person's privacy - i.e search and seizure. What is your opinion on this matter?
full member
Activity: 152
Merit: 100
July 06, 2012, 09:58:04 PM
If you oppose the NAP, please explain the rational basis by which you distinguish between those permitted to act aggressively and those prohibited from doing so.
This is *exactly* what I'm asking too.  Hypothesis: I oppose the NAP and propose instead that there be *no* limitation whatsoever on people's behavior; EVERYBODY is permitted to act aggressively at all times; only instincts of self-preservation will prevent them from doing so. How is this different from the NAP?
A society where aggression is universally permitted is compatible with the NAP, in that it clearly would permit the self-defense / punishment for aggression which the NAP says is justified, albeit labeled as "counter-aggression" rather than "defense". It is not necessarily compliant with the NAP, though those "instincts of self-preservation" you refer to, along with the general social tendencies bred into the human race, would probably bring it fairly close.

A society isn't incompatible with the NAP until you start saying that some people should (morally/ethically/legally) be able to get away with practicing aggression without fear of reprisal, and the system you described does nothing of the sort. Abiding by the NAP then becomes a matter of individual choice. On the whole, as a straightforward application of the Golden Rule, it works out better for each individual to avoid initiating coercion against non-aggressors (i.e. follow the NAP), and to join together to defend others against aggression wherever it does occur (i.e. help to enforce the NAP).

The critical question is whether the same rules apply to everyone, or whether some individuals, for whatever reason, are permitted to act aggressively without opposition from the group. If the society treats aggression identically regardless of the source, it complies with the NAP; otherwise, if the society approves of aggression by some and not others, then the NAP is violated.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
July 06, 2012, 09:45:36 PM
Mr. Ybarra got a lot of positives by climbing and kayaking. How many positives did Billy get from not wearing a seat belt?
The beauty of living in a free society is that I don't have to justify my climbing, kayaking, smoking, or not wearing a seat belt. I can do it if I choose to. Those who argue against a free society don't seem to get this. Billy doesn't have to justify his choices to you. The disagreement is entirely over who makes the decision, not what decision is the right one.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 06:27:04 PM
I dislike racial discrimination. In fact, I despise it. However, as a believer in the Non-Aggression Principle, I cannot find a way to enforce any restrictions against it without violating the bigot's rights by forcing him to do business with someone he does not want to.
In fairness to myrkul, this does sound a bit similar to Freenet's justification - if you like freedom-of-expression use freenet, but don't complain about expressions you don't like. It is not inconsistent, but then I wonder how myrkul would behave when his locality decides that people with red hair may not own property. And before you say that's preposterous, just substitute "locality" for "local defense contractor" and substitute "red hair" for "sunni" or "black".

It would be better to re-word it as "Local defense contractor will not defend clients with red hair" The obvious response, to an entrepreneur, is to open up RedDefense, a defense company that caters to the red-heads who are refused service by the first company. The rest is as I explained in the post you quoted.

Slavery is economically unfeasible.
Slavery has been economically feasible for millenia, and will still be economically feasible for millenia to come, or at least until rubber dolls become more appealing to men than the real thing.

This is a fine point, and unfortunately, I do not have an economic argument that refutes it. But, of course, I was, originally, referring to slavery as practiced in the American south prior to the civil war, not sex-slavery. I would, however, point out that sex-slavery is aggression against the women so used, and so would not be viewed as legitimate in a NAP-following society. Defense of the women against their captors would be legitimate, and probably frequent.

How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws?
Manufacturing companies will stop installing them in order to cut corners.  Your argument that people's own self-interest will compel them to insist that the manufacturers continue to install seatbelts may be correct, but that argument fails if you consider crumple zones that protect pedestrians in an impact.

Crumple zones, if they indeed protect pedestrians, reduce the liability of the driver in the event that they strike a pedestrian. A car with such a safety feature would have lower insurance rates, and thus, be more popular.

“I heartily accept the motto, — ‘That government is best which governs least.’”
       Henry David Thoreau
I haven't read this, but it seems as though Thoreau referred to a government which enacts a minimum set of laws; not to a geographically minimal government.

You're right, he wasn't. But it can be taken either way, and results in the same effect: a government with no laws, with only you deciding what is good and what is not for you. The advantage of viewing it in this way, however, is that you view yourself as a government unto yourself, and choose laws that result in peaceful dealings with other governments.

The "we" is whoever is doing the deciding.
So, if no court of arbitration is specified and the two parties cannot agree to one, then who does the deciding?  Who is "we" when not explicitly defined?  Just so you can't avoid answering again, please begin your answer with: "When the court of arbitration is not explicitly defined, and the two parties cannot agree to one, the person(s) doing the deciding shall be: ".  In the event you are unable to define this, then how do you suggest the conflict be resolved?

There is no simple answer to this. I'll do my best, though:
When the court of arbitration is not explicitly defined, and the two parties cannot agree to one, the person(s) doing the deciding shall be: those that the people the two parties have chosen decide upon.

In other words, like my footy example above, each side picks a representative. The representatives, then, come to an agreement as to who will ultimately decide.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
July 06, 2012, 06:04:35 PM
If you oppose the NAP, please explain the rational basis by which you distinguish between those permitted to act aggressively and those prohibited from doing so.
This is *exactly* what I'm asking too.  Hypothesis: I oppose the NAP and propose instead that there be *no* limitation whatsoever on people's behavior; EVERYBODY is permitted to act aggressively at all times; only instincts of self-preservation will prevent them from doing so. How is this different from the NAP?

I dislike racial discrimination. In fact, I despise it. However, as a believer in the Non-Aggression Principle, I cannot find a way to enforce any restrictions against it without violating the bigot's rights by forcing him to do business with someone he does not want to.
In fairness to myrkul, this does sound a bit similar to Freenet's justification - if you like freedom-of-expression use freenet, but don't complain about expressions you don't like. It is not inconsistent, but then I wonder how myrkul would behave when his locality decides that people with red hair may not own property. And before you say that's preposterous, just substitute "locality" for "local defense contractor" and substitute "red hair" for "sunni" or "black".

Slavery is economically unfeasible.
Slavery has been economically feasible for millenia, and will still be economically feasible for millenia to come, or at least until rubber dolls become more appealing to men than the real thing.

How, exactly, will not having seat belt laws harm those people who want seat belt laws?
Manufacturing companies will stop installing them in order to cut corners.  Your argument that people's own self-interest will compel them to insist that the manufacturers continue to install seatbelts may be correct, but that argument fails if you consider crumple zones that protect pedestrians in an impact.

“I heartily accept the motto, — ‘That government is best which governs least.’”
       Henry David Thoreau
I haven't read this, but it seems as though Thoreau referred to a government which enacts a minimum set of laws; not to a geographically minimal government.

The "we" is whoever is doing the deciding.
So, if no court of arbitration is specified and the two parties cannot agree to one, then who does the deciding?  Who is "we" when not explicitly defined?  Just so you can't avoid answering again, please begin your answer with: "When the court of arbitration is not explicitly defined, and the two parties cannot agree to one, the person(s) doing the deciding shall be: ".  In the event you are unable to define this, then how do you suggest the conflict be resolved?
legendary
Activity: 1120
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July 06, 2012, 04:57:24 PM
...snip...
Are you saying you're a "hardcore statist"?

I'm a hardcore realist.  If the state is the best way to deliver something, its great.  If Fedex is a better option, its great.  The important thing is that the delivery get made in the best way possible.

Well, my rant was that the British are hardcore statists, and made no reference to you, yet you volunteered that you're not British, implying that you're a hardcore statist.

Not sure how you missed that.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:47:16 PM
Quote
The right for you to choose your leader is valid. The right for you to choose my leader is not. It really is that simple.

Logical conclusion:  that no one can lead anything put the smallest of groups, if not single individuals - at that point would everyone be their own leader?

“I heartily accept the motto, — ‘That government is best which governs least.’”
       Henry David Thoreau

And what area is smaller than your own self? Govern yourself, and no other.

So, tell me, who is the "we" in your reply? And why would the aggressor be the one who moved in?  Perhaps the aggressor might be the one who refuses to move out.  Is NAP really based on such arbitrary 'gut feelings'? Is the "we" you and your friends, me and my friends, or A's friends, or B's friends?  Is it perhaps a committee formed by all the NAP-abiding neighbourhood?  Is it some arbitrary vigilante group?  Assume neither A nor B, not adhering to the NAP, have not hired any defense contractor.  Or, maybe, suppose the land-registry to which A adheres says the property is his, while B's land registry says otherwise.

We've debated on this issue before - NAP is useless at resolving conflicts which are not governed by some contract and for which no court of arbitration is stipulated a priori. 

The "we" is whoever is doing the deciding.

A principle does not decide an issue. it guides the people doing the deciding. The Non-aggression principle says that nobody has the right to initiate force on another person. That in itself -you're right, there- does nothing to decide a disagreement, but it does help guide those who are doing the deciding, and those who need the disagreement settled. It says that a peaceful resolution is preferable to a violent one. If there is no prior agreement, following the NAP will lead the disagreeing parties to seek a peaceful resolution rather than a violent one.
sr. member
Activity: 440
Merit: 250
July 06, 2012, 04:32:52 PM
I'm talking about "true libertarianism" in which even the NAP is rescinded. You are truly free to do whatever you want. Rescinding laws until you're left with only the NAP is arbitrary. Give me a good logical argument why libertarians insist on maintaining a NAP, and yet insist on rescinding lots of other laws.  Or, alternatively, why libertarians insist on creating the NAP, yet refuse to create other laws.
You seem to be confusing laws with a principle
Sorry, I've been offline for a while. This is a good post, different from the pro- and anti-NAP flame war currently going on.  Yes, cryptoanarcist, perhaps I did.  But then, if NAP is merely a principle, what is its basis?  Is it a principle of morality?  Of utility? Or maybe religious? An economic principle perhaps?  But if it's any of these, then it is necessarily subjective, and hence it is not universal (in the sense not all humans will consider it obviously useful/good/ideal). As such, it cannot possibly form the basis of a society composed of members with different or competing goals, morals, religions, racial features,..... and so on.

---

As for the pro/anti NAP flame war, I would say this: two people (say, A & B, not adhering to the NAP, and with no contract ever formed between them) claim ownership of some property. Here is the debate:
Suppose he thinks its his house? Wouldn't it simply be better to ignore the NAP so at least there's no confusion - possession would equal ownership? Or alternatively introduce a complex legal system with a land registry where the true owner is listed. What exactly does NAP solve in this situation?
AnCap doesn't preclude a land registry. The NAP solves, in this case, who is in the "wrong". If he thinks it is his house, and the original possessor also thinks it is his house, we need only look at who was the aggressor. This will most likely turn out to be the person who moved in.
So, tell me, who is the "we" in your reply? And why would the aggressor be the one who moved in?  Perhaps the aggressor might be the one who refuses to move out.  Is NAP really based on such arbitrary 'gut feelings'? Is the "we" you and your friends, me and my friends, or A's friends, or B's friends?  Is it perhaps a committee formed by all the NAP-abiding neighbourhood?  Is it some arbitrary vigilante group?  Assume neither A nor B, not adhering to the NAP, have not hired any defense contractor.  Or, maybe, suppose the land-registry to which A adheres says the property is his, while B's land registry says otherwise.

We've debated on this issue before - NAP is useless at resolving conflicts which are not governed by some contract and for which no court of arbitration is stipulated a priori.  Even worse, since people's interpretation of "violence" is different, then it is completely possible that a meeting between two people, even adhering to NAP, will descend to violence.  See this thread where Moonshadow proposed a non-arbitrary definition of "acceptable weaponry" to which everyone might agree: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.547444   I won't quote the message here because it's too long, but suffice it to say that I most emphatically do not agree.  (To cut a long story short I never replied 'cos I was out of town for a while, and the thread grew insanely after that). His definition is just as arbitrary as others previously posted in that thread, so it would be enough for Moonshadow, a NAPster, carrying his automatic assault rifle, to encounter another NAPster who considers possession of such a weapon to be a threat of violence and so two sworn NAPsters end up fighting or shooting in the street.  (for those interested, I suggest reading that thread. It's *very* entertaining, but *very very* long)

This is my last word on the pro/anti NAP debate.  In this thread I really wanted to find out my libertarians adore the NAP so much - why not get rid of it, and let everyone have true liberty.  No satisfactory replies yet, but I see I have about 100 posts to read through.
full member
Activity: 196
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July 06, 2012, 04:31:53 PM

I'm doing end of day accounts and heading out.  If I summarise where I think we have got to:
1. People use laws to set a standard so that they don't have to use willpower themselves.  Social security, the NHS and seat belt laws are examples of this.
2. Evidence suggests that 50% of people actually need the laws; they don't save, buy insurance or wear seat belts otherwise.
3. They enthusiastically vote for politicians who create these laws.
4. Usually,the rights to do this is inherited in much the same way property is inherited.
5. If you are saying that these rights are not valid, then no rights are valid.

I am not saying you agree with all this but at least you understand one of the reasons why people vote the way they do.

My question to you is: what is the problem that you want to solve?  The system works - what reason do you have for wanting a reset ?

The right for you to choose your leader is valid. The right for you to choose my leader is not. It really is that simple.

Logical conclusion:  that no one can lead anything put the smallest of groups, if not single individuals - at that point would everyone be their own leader?
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 06, 2012, 04:29:33 PM
Are you about to start telling me that Jesus grants rights and our human laws are just implementations of his will?  Or that some higher natural law exists that we use as a template?

 Cheesy No.  You have property rights because you have ownership of your body. Pure and simple. Because you own your body, you own any products thereof. That includes the result of your labor. Which, naturally, includes your land, provided that you gained it through means not violating others' property rights. I could go on, but I think you can follow my reasoning from here.

Sounds suspiciously like a natural law type thing.  Its as good a rationalisation for law as any but that's all it is.  I prefer most powerful gangster theory myself. As Friedman said in "The Machinery of Freedom", the state is "like a gang of bandits who, while occasionally robbing the villages in their territory, served to keep off other and more rapacious gangs."

Your "gang of bandits" have been sanctified by being called "founding fathers."  Your people have rights that derive from the constitution these "bandits" came up with.  Saying that there is a natural law that over-rides that is OK.  But you have to go all in.  All property, debt and laws have to be totally reset if you want to take away the citizenship rights.


How cynical, yet ubiquitous.  Thank the heavens that is not the actual world we live in, but I guess it is something that even a Libertarian can understand.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 06, 2012, 04:27:36 PM
Are you about to start telling me that Jesus grants rights and our human laws are just implementations of his will?  Or that some higher natural law exists that we use as a template?

 Cheesy No.  You have property rights because you have ownership of your body. Pure and simple. Because you own your body, you own any products thereof. That includes the result of your labor. Which, naturally, includes your land, provided that you gained it through means not violating others' property rights. I could go on, but I think you can follow my reasoning from here.

Doesn't sound like reasoning as much as a bunch of assertions that you believe to be true; but can't, or refuse to propose the deeper meaning or distinction of.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
July 06, 2012, 04:24:46 PM
Ever notice the hardcore statists are usually Brits?

They seem to generally have a collectivist mindset. I know that's a generalization, but jesus, look throughout history.

What other nation has been as rapacious and violent at imposing their morality on everyone else? The British!

Imposing morality through FORCE is what statism is all about!  Smiley

Oh yeah, and they still have a queen who claims to be descended from the lost tribe of Judea. Kinda crazy? Yeah, they worship a queen...how's that for "hive-minded".

Oh noes.  You just called an Irish guy a Brit.

*dives for cover*

 Tongue
hero member
Activity: 532
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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:24:24 PM
If you are proposing Democracy, as such, count me out.  Democracy is like I said before and like Hamilton warned us: it is the masses being made to slit their own throats by use of ideology and the molding of the public mind by those in power establishment (the Oligarchy).  I'd like to try and dampen that process, it is already rapidly destroying our society, evidenced by the various ideological lemmings that I'm surrounded by (Marxists, Communists, Leftists, Libertarians, Anarchists, etc).

Which brings us to an interesting point. Which system do you propose as better than both the current mess and market anarchy?
full member
Activity: 196
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July 06, 2012, 04:21:28 PM
I guess, my real question is, what is so wrong with the system of The Constitution?  Majority rule with individual rights protected.  What is so odorous about this system that we need to revert back to stone-age morality?


You are inventing rights that are in dispute.  They already have rights.  If you can take their rights as citizens off them, then no rights are sacred.  Why stop there?  Perhaps the right to property can be removed as well?  Or the right to be a free person?  Or the right to equal treatment?

Tell me what right gives them the ability to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body, and I will gleefully become a proponent of democracy, and renounce this "silly anarchist view".

If you are proposing Democracy, as such, count me out.  Democracy is like I said before and like Hamilton warned us: it is the masses being made to slit their own throats by use of ideology and the molding of the public mind by those in power establishment (the Oligarchy).  I'd like to try and dampen that process, it is already rapidly destroying our society, evidenced by the various ideological lemmings that I'm surrounded by (Marxists, Communists, Leftists, Libertarians, Anarchists, etc).
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
July 06, 2012, 04:17:43 PM

I'm doing end of day accounts and heading out.  If I summarise where I think we have got to:
1. People use laws to set a standard so that they don't have to use willpower themselves.  Social security, the NHS and seat belt laws are examples of this.
2. Evidence suggests that 50% of people actually need the laws; they don't save, buy insurance or wear seat belts otherwise.
3. They enthusiastically vote for politicians who create these laws.
4. Usually,the rights to do this is inherited in much the same way property is inherited.
5. If you are saying that these rights are not valid, then no rights are valid.

I am not saying you agree with all this but at least you understand one of the reasons why people vote the way they do.

My question to you is: what is the problem that you want to solve?  The system works - what reason do you have for wanting a reset ?

The right for you to choose your leader is valid. The right for you to choose my leader is not. It really is that simple.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
July 06, 2012, 04:12:27 PM
Your "gang of bandits" have been sanctified by being called "founding fathers."  Your people have rights that derive from the constitution these "bandits" came up with.  Saying that there is a natural law that over-rides that is OK.  But you have to go all in.  All property, debt and laws have to be totally reset if you want to take away the citizenship rights.


By no means all property, and decidedly not all debt (though certainly a good chunk of it would go bye-bye), and only most laws would need to be reset. Any law which does not infringe upon another's property rights would remain respected, especially since the replacement, free market system is already partially in place. There are numerous agorist communities, at least two of which I know of in the US, and surely others elsewhere.
...snip...

Well then you are being dishonest with yourself.  There is no "natural law" or "divine law" that we all can see.  Property rights and voting rights are human creations and one is as valid as the other.  

I'm doing end of day accounts and heading out.  If I summarise where I think we have got to:
1. People use laws to set a standard so that they don't have to use willpower themselves.  Social security, the NHS and seat belt laws are examples of this.
2. Evidence suggests that 50% of people actually need the laws; they don't save, buy insurance or wear seat belts otherwise.
3. They enthusiastically vote for politicians who create these laws.
4. Usually,the rights to do this is inherited in much the same way property is inherited.
5. If you are saying that these rights are not valid, then no rights are valid.

I am not saying you agree with all this but at least you understand one of the reasons why people vote the way they do.

My question to you is: what is the problem that you want to solve?  The system works - what reason do you have for wanting a reset ?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
July 06, 2012, 04:03:11 PM
Your "gang of bandits" have been sanctified by being called "founding fathers."  Your people have rights that derive from the constitution these "bandits" came up with.  Saying that there is a natural law that over-rides that is OK.  But you have to go all in.  All property, debt and laws have to be totally reset if you want to take away the citizenship rights.


By no means all property, and decidedly not all debt (though certainly a good chunk of it would go bye-bye), and only most laws would need to be reset. Any law which does not infringe upon another's property rights would remain respected, especially since the replacement, free market system is already partially in place. There are numerous agorist communities, at least two of which I know of in the US, and surely others elsewhere.

...snip...
Are you saying you're a "hardcore statist"?

I'm a hardcore realist.  If the state is the best way to deliver something, its great.  If Fedex is a better option, its great too.  The important thing is that the delivery get made in the best way possible.

How can you say this, then deny the reality of a better system when presented one?

What better system has been presented?
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