Topic: Where do you stand on abortion? Let's have a civil debate. (Read 2019 times)

The continuum fallacy proves there are things that are continually developing so we can't set a value that's true/false on them at a definite point in time. It's impossible.
It's obvious Fred has a beard 4 months in and that he doesn't have one 2 weeks in. But where do you draw the line? You don't because you can't.
At 2 months in, some people would say yeah, that's a grown beard, others would say no way that's a full grown beard.

This argument is the continuum fallacy. I would suggest you read about both it and the sorites paradox.

And I never said they could be. It is a continuum. Please read what I said again:

If a person has no beard, one more day of growth will not cause them to have a beard. Therefore, if Fred is clean-shaven now, he can never grow a beard (for it is absurd to think that he will have a beard some day when he did not have it the day before.).

You can't apply an arbitrary cut off date to a fetus, because nothing can not be a person at one second, and magically become one the next.

So no, a fetus obviously isn't unconscious at 23 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, and 59 minutes, and conscious at 24 weeks. It is a gradual process over the space of 2 weeks. If you make the cut off 24 weeks, i.e. before that process has begun, then you can be sure the fetus is not conscious since it does not have a cortex.

You've completely missed my point.

Why can you not join the military at 17 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, but you can at 18 years?
Why can you not buy alcohol at 20 years, 364 days, 23 hours, 59 minutes, but you can at 21 years?

You have to apply an arbitrary cut off to a continuous process (time), so you are always left with situations like this.

Now, if you read my previous post, cortex development necessary for consciousness takes place at 24-26 weeks. So no, a fetus obviously isn't unconscious at 23 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, and 59 minutes, and conscious at 24 weeks. It is a gradual process over the space of 2 weeks. If you make the cut off 24 weeks, i.e. before that process has begun, then you can be sure the fetus is not conscious since it does not have a cortex.

It is a gradual process over the space of 2 weeks. If you make the cut off 24 weeks, i.e. before that process has begun, then you can be sure the fetus is not conscious since it does not have a cortex.

Can you not be a person at one second and magically become one the other?

It's not ideal, but it's one solution that is already used the world over for anything age related - being able to drive, drink, get married, join the military, etc.

How would we legally define this?
The baby isn't a person when it's 23 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours and 59 seconds old but when it's 24 weeks old, in that magical second, it became a person.

Yes, it's developing. At some point it will develop in to a human being. A collection of cells with no brain is not a human being.


See:

Definition of person
1: HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL —sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes

Nor does it have to be a brain or a consciousness. It's developing.

What differentiates a 23 week baby from a 24 week one?

The cortex, which is responsible for human consciousness, does not develop until 24-26 weeks.

8 pages on and all i can read is where men think they have a womb and that they have power to make the decision.

the women who is pregnant should be the only one making the decision...
.. end of

Not accurate. Half of all fertilized eggs never implant.

Unfortunately, you are now quoting things I suspect you do not understand, since they do not support your position. Electrical activity is neither a brain nor consciousness. Nor is a neural tube. Nor are connections between nerves and muscles. Nor are spinal reflexes - brain dead patients can still hiccup, stretch, and move. The cortex, which is responsible for human consciousness, does not develop until 24-26 weeks. 24-26 weeks is also the limit of viability, when a fetus being delivered has a chance of surviving (albeit a low chance, and likely with significant physical and mental disabilities). That's where I draw the line.

where men think they have a womb

In its natural condition, it will be born, if there isn't an intervention or an anomaly.

Where do you draw the line?

Neither will a zygote. It needs a uterus, a placenta, an amnion, a chorion, a constant supply of blood from the mother to deliver nutrients and remove waste, a variety of hormones from the mother, warmth, physical protection, immunological protection, etc.

As I said before, it the potential to turn in to a human being at some point in the future given the right conditions is your baseline, then you can equally apply that reasoning to every single sperm or egg.

I said that a person can be dead even if their heart is still beating and all their other organs are functioning, if their brain activity has ceased. Given that a fully grown adult without a functioning brain is no longer a human life, why would a fetus which doesn't even have a brain, let alone one which can function, be a human life?

The early signs of a brain have begun to form. Even though the fetus is now developing areas that will become specific sections of the brain, not until the end of week 5 and into week 6 (usually around forty to forty-three days) does the first electrical brain activity begin to occur

The neural tube, which becomes the brain and spinal cord, seals up completely three weeks after conception, one day after the fetal heart begins to beat. By the fourth post-conception week, the eyes and ears have started to form, including connections to the developing brain.

 

Ultrasounds may detect the first fetal movements as early as five weeks post-conception. These movements provide evidence of electrical impulses at the connection between nerves and muscles. In the sixth week, the forebrain – the brain region responsible for processing perception, thoughts, and decisions in adults – doubles in size. In fact, the brain starts growing at a rate of 250,000 neurons per minute for the next 21 weeks! In the seventh week, the fetus starts showing a preference for his right or left hand. By 11 weeks post-conception, the fetus performs complex behaviors that require working neural circuits, including hiccupping, stretching, grasping objects, and turning away from loud noises.

 

Importantly, the formation of the human brain dominates early development. In fact, at eight weeks post-conception, the fetal brain weighs 43 percent of its total body weight. By comparison, a newborn’s brain weighs 10 percent of his total body weight, and an adult’s brain weighs just 2 percent of his total body weight. Therefore, even early fetal development occurs in connection with neural activity.

Seems like I have read an outdated article.

So you believe its a person once its heart starts beating?

A skin cell on its own will not grow up and work.