Topic: Where do you stand on abortion? Let's have a civil debate. - page 4. (Read 2019 times)

The logical cut off is probably around 26 weeks, for a number of reasons.

Amniocentesis can't be performed until around 14-16 weeks, meaning we struggle to detect many genetic defects (many of which are not compatible with life) before that.

The anomaly scan is performed around 20-22 weeks, and this may be the first time we discover many congenital malformations, again many of which are not compatible with life.

The limit of viability is around 24-26 weeks, where a fetus has a 50% chance of survival (albeit often with major disabilities).

My wife is of the same opinion as me.



Yes you are right, In my country you are not allowed (by law) to leave your children by themselve at any time if they are less than 14yo.
It even means they can't walk to school by themselves, if anything were to happen to the child (being run over), the full responsability of the parent would be engaged. Even leaving them in your own house 5min  to go get a loaf of bread next door if prohibited.

True, I was refering to your point saying that a fetus isn't a person.
Hence killing someone else fetus would be a lesser crime than killing a person. And probably even a lesser crime than killing someone's cat / dog.

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People should be allowed to do what they want of their body, they should be able to abort if they want to, however, I am of the opinion that a limit must be set to where abortion is only possible due to life-threatening to the mother and or the fetus and not just a change of mind.
Maybe it is 12 weeks, maybe 16 weeks, but definitely not 7-8-9 months !

Hate to nitpick here, but the term you're looking for is Hyper Partisanship, the term you used -- hyper bipartisanship would just mean that people work together all the time.

But yes, the loudest on both sides are not the majority on both sides in the least. I think there are a good deal of women who have abortions who hate having to do it, and think that it is horrible because they're ending the life of 'their child' but they know that in this very moment they wouldn't be able to provide for the child like a child should be provided for. And honestly, that's OKAY. I think we'd be a much better place if certain people in certain financial situations knew that they shouldn't be having kids right now because it wouldn't be a healthy and happy life for the parents and the children.

I know I'm probably going to get hate for the above, but I'll go even further for a second. Even if a person does have the resources to provide for the child, but knows that they're not equipped -- personally both mentally and physically, to go through with raising a child, then I don't see anything wrong with aborting that child.

We should continue to push for safe sex, birth control pill usage, and so on instead of fighting about abortions.

That's a false equivalence. No one is performing abortions at 8.5 months.

firstly it might be best to get a female pregnant and then ask what she wishes to occur inside her body.
because a guy cant take an abortion option.. he isnt the one thats pregnant
he can only inform the woman of all the options and whats best. its ultimately her decision and no guy should be demanding she aborts or keeps it. its her decision

its not about defining a fetus as a parasite. its not about defining it as a helicopter or a cancer. its just defining it as not self sustainable independant human

this is why kids that are born are their parents responsibility and liability until they 'come of age' to be independant and make their own choices

unfortunetly this is why kids end up in gangs and used as street drug dealers, because they aint smart enough to make their own decisions and do whats right and because legally they are not accountable for their actions so end up getting used by dealer to be little hustlers because the kids wont get in trouble until they become juvenile age-adult
i say this because its an example of why even kids after birth dont really have their own rights and responsibilities fully and its their parents that are accountable and make the decisions for the kids best interest

Not trying to pick a fight here but,

I do agree that technically a fetus isn't a person, yet.
However, imagine that you 8.5-month pregnant wife walks in the street and get punched in the wombs multiple times and lose the fetus.

What would this be considered?  removal of a parasite? (ref previous posts, not by you).
Murder? but the fetus isn't a person.
A  minor assault, at the same level, as if a tooth was broken?
At the end of the day, you/she can make another fetus, so no harm done, right?


Then, the pro-life say that every fetus deserves to live. I am sorry, but I don't agree with them either. There are cases, where it is just best for the society to end a pregnancy, even (very)  late.
I will eventually become a father in 2020 or 2021. And if the doctors were to tell me that my fetus would be the bearer of a very extremely painful disease and if the option to abort the pregnancy was given to me I would take it.
The same way, if something was to happen to me and I finish in a bed, just able to blink an eye and being fed by tube and hooked to a respirator, I would beg to be unplugged and my misery to end.

In the event of a healthy unwanted baby, the adoption looks like a good idea, however, our current system if flawed and adopting is so long that most couples are deterred by it.
My wife and I talked about making a baby ourselves and also adopting one. Adoption is so complicated (takes years and cost more than 1 years of salary = $50kusd) that we might not even bother.
Too bad, we really wanted to help an orphan.

This is an issue that has been dividing the country for a while, but more so in recent years.

Unfortunately, with the rise of hyper-bipartisanship, people feel the need to immediately side with the argument that belongs on their side of the political spectrum, even if they do not fully understand the implications of what they are saying. People get so heated and animated over this argument, on both sides, calling people who perform abortions MURDERERS and people on the other side saying that the baby is "part of their body, so it is their choice". It is stupid in my mind to have these arguments, as both sides both present arguments that are logical and make sense. There is nothing to disprove, or show using facts, it is purely subjective, and therefore I do not think we will ever find a peaceful common ground when it comes to abortion.

In my personal opinion, I believe if a woman is pregnant and not prepared to have a child, they should make the decision to get an abortion at the very earliest stages, otherwise, just put the child up for adoption. Of course, there lies the argument of how early is early enough, which again, I do not think we will ever find a middle ground for. There's that infamous clip of Ben Shapiro telling the girl who is claiming to abort a "bundle of cells", to which Ben replies that SHE IS technically just a bundle of cells. While funny, he isn't wrong, and it even made me question my own beliefs a little bit.

To conclude, I think Dave Chappelle presented a funny, yet valid compromise to this issue in one of his recent comedy specials...
He says that when arguing about the issue of abortion, men should stay out of the discussion all together. This is purely a women's issue, it is their body, we should not be the ones to decide what they are and are not allowed to do with the child they are bearing. HOWEVER, in the case where a woman has the ability to choose whether or not she wants to keep the baby, we as men should have the ability to decide whether we want to pay for the child or not!

Arguments over abortion are a waste of time, as you will rarely change anyone's mind about the issue. All it does is create unhealthy debate and drives a wedge between the right and left.

What if that baby was going to be a school shooter? Or serial killer? Or the next Hitler?

Or what if the mom was going to discover the cure for cancer, but she ended up in poverty trying to pay for a child she didn't want and couldn't afford?

These "What if" arguments are meaningless.

A fetus is not a person.

It always depend on the parents of course but imagine if a baby was born then the future it would be the president or have a good future? How was that? Abortion was a crime because you'd kill a person. Even if it is good from overpopulation, it was not good for us to do that.

Honestly for me the only people who has a say on the matter is the baby's parents. If the parents decide to abort their baby due to poor financial status then go for it. I hate prolife people, if that's what they think they are, just blabbering about it but doesn't do any action to prove their statement. I mean c'mon if you truly hate it why not fund an org to adopt and protect those innocent babies. This is only my opinion.

if it has a right to live. try proving it scientifically by doing a caesarian at just a few weeks. i guarantee you the baby wont live because it has not yet got to the gestation age to actually be able to live independently and have independent rights and abilities

imagine a kid thats disabled and dependant on parents. go on give that kid a right to independance and let it fend for itself...
.. see where the problem comes in.

if something cannot be independantly self sustaining then freedom and independance rights work against that things best interests

I stand in the religion, i believe that when i child is already forming inside a mothers child, it has right now have right to live. You must not abort it because it is inosent, there's no reason for her or him to die. It is like murder. You must think first before having some sexual intercourse. Use some contraceptives so that you will not be a killer or murderer

if we brought religion into it like most try.
if 'god' wanted a fetus to live then fetuses would be viable after a few weeks of gestation. not months

if we brought law into it like most try
if 'judge' treated all death as murder. then a heart attack would be a chargeable offense. let me guess imprision a doctor for not doing adequate checks. or imprison a employer for making the person work on the day of heart attack. or imprison and seize a food company for not offering 'food' anonymous addiction services which could have prevented it

whats next. treat a persons right to deny life sustaining treatment as criminal
start imprisoning someone for refusing a pacemaker or other hospital treatment
stop letting people having next of kin/medical advocates, because certain medical decisions come with prison sentances?

EG if someone is in a coma. if family or doctor say its time to turn life support off.. would that suddenly be treated as planning an assassination??

If we were to consider every fetus a parasite, why do they even nourish in their body? Would you consider a human with a pacemaker not a human?

If we are to reason, we can reason anything like
Do humans walk?
yes
But a 6 month old can't, so it's not a human body.
Do humans talk?
A 3 months can't so it's not a human body.
Do humans fart?
Yes, So does a moneky, so a monkey is a human?

do humans have tails?
no

then a fetus is not a human baby for the first few months of gestation

do humans have self sustainable lungs and hearts
yes

then a fetus is not a human baby for the first few months of gestation

Give the man a cigar. In fact, give him one for every aborted fetus.

 

Fetus != baby.

Op. From all the three point you have mentioned to support your Stan on why there is need for abortion, I believe that in the first place the person in question shouldn't have had sex in other to avoid the pregnancy which will lead you to think of way out. And the only way out in your submission is to kill another human being in the name of trying to safe another life as you rightly put.

How can we have a civil debate, when babies are being murdered? It's criminal. A civil debate is an attempt to pacify those who are against abortion.

Let's have a criminal debate.

My answer is negative in this case. Go for protective sex, if you are doing it just for fun and you dont want kids. Killing a life in womb is not allowed in any religion as far as my knowledge goes, it's a sin.