Why are people cheering that ASICMINER will bring 800-1000TH online this year? - page 7.

Paladin69

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Quote from: bitfair on June 30, 2013, 10:57:26 PM

Quote from: Paladin69 on June 30, 2013, 10:53:44 PM

Quote from: bitfair on June 30, 2013, 10:46:56 PM

Quote from: Paladin69 on June 30, 2013, 10:42:17 PM

Not people buying shares so one guy can mine more. Christ. Central bank shit right there.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that: 400k shares were issued approximately one year ago when the company first started. Approximately 160k were sold at 0.1 BTC each to raise funds for the fabrication of the first chips, and the remaining shares belong to the founders. No more shares have been issued, so there has been no dilution in the equity.

Care to explain more closely what you mean by that statement, I'm not sure I understand entirely what you are implying?

The scarcity of btc is being replaced by a system of shares. The dilution will come by an ever expanding hardware investment of re-issuance.

You wouldn't trust GLD or SLV paper metals but you'll help grow this operation. This just isn't a good idea. I've seen this before. It's being replicated in the digital sense. Well, paper stocks are digital but you hopefully get my point.

At least one of us is confused. Both of us is probably imagining that it is the other. I am ready to admit I do not understand what you mean by that.

Digital Chinese Bernie Madoff. Scarcity and your soul is being replaced for digital fiat promises. Investors in the beginning may make some coin. He could probably pull what you claim is shares you own. He is selling out everyone who is too lazy to mine with their own hardware for his own benefit. I'll laugh if he attempts a reverse stock split.

Long story short, you are helping someone to consistently, eventually, own 50% of the network at all times so long as they replace their own hardware and what they sell to others with current ASIC tech. With that kind of ching and cheap chinese manufacturing connections, I see no reason why he can't keep up with developing ever smaller ASIC chip sizes.

Would you like it if Bernanke owned 50% of the network at all times? I don't know how I can describe it in any other way.

Someone with that much coin in the end can create their own bubbles to their own benefit and really fuck with the btc economy.

k9quaint

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Quote from: Flashman on June 30, 2013, 10:52:16 PM

BFL ASICs ROI gets shaky with a $60 bitcoin at 1,500,000,000 difficulty ... but I guess there's Europeans with 50c per kilowatt/hour power bills.

I think you added a few too many zeros.
http://www.coinish.com/calc/#
BFL 50GH/s @ $2499 (straight from their product page) will never generate a return @ 80,000,000 difficulty, $94/BTC and 1.2788% growth rate.

ASICMiner is looking at this same curve. Very soon it will not make sense for ASICMiner to deploy their own hardware.

bitfair

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Quote from: Paladin69 on June 30, 2013, 10:53:44 PM

Quote from: bitfair on June 30, 2013, 10:46:56 PM

Quote from: Paladin69 on June 30, 2013, 10:42:17 PM

Not people buying shares so one guy can mine more. Christ. Central bank shit right there.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that: 400k shares were issued approximately one year ago when the company first started. Approximately 160k were sold at 0.1 BTC each to raise funds for the fabrication of the first chips, and the remaining shares belong to the founders. No more shares have been issued, so there has been no dilution in the equity.

Care to explain more closely what you mean by that statement, I'm not sure I understand entirely what you are implying?

The scarcity of btc is being replaced by a system of shares. The dilution will come by an ever expanding hardware investment of re-issuance.

You wouldn't trust GLD or SLV paper metals but you'll help grow this operation. This just isn't a good idea. I've seen this before. It's being replicated in the digital sense. Well, paper stocks are digital but you hopefully get my point.

At least one of us is confused. Both of us are probably imagining that it is the other. I am ready to admit I do not understand what you mean by that.

Paladin69

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Quote from: Flashman on June 30, 2013, 10:52:16 PM

BFL ASICs ROI gets shaky with a $60 bitcoin at 1,500,000,000 difficulty ... but I guess there's Europeans with 50c per kilowatt/hour power bills.

To any actual buyers, seriously, I mean SERIOUSLY complaining about AM's first round hardware pricing, I'd say it was probably a cheap lesson in impulse control, vs ending up on a murder charge or something. If you were oblivious at the time, some 90% of the bitcoin world were standing back, pointing, and laughing at you.

It isn't the high price of their hardware I'm worried about. It is what they are doing with their reinvestment that is really scary combined with an issuance of "shares".

dan99

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Now AM investors are kind of nervous because they investments hardware are in great China and anything can happens. No search warrant needed and can come as they wish, hope AM has hide those mining babies pretty well Grin

Paladin69

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Quote from: bitfair on June 30, 2013, 10:46:56 PM

Quote from: Paladin69 on June 30, 2013, 10:42:17 PM

Not people buying shares so one guy can mine more. Christ. Central bank shit right there.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that: 400k shares were issued approximately one year ago when the company first started. Approximately 160k were sold at 0.1 BTC each to raise funds for the fabrication of the first chips, and the remaining shares belong to the founders. No more shares have been issued, so there has been no dilution in the equity.

Care to explain more closely what you mean by that statement, I'm not sure I understand entirely what you are implying?

The scarcity of btc is being replaced by a system of shares. The dilution will come by an ever expanding hardware investment of re-issuance.

You wouldn't trust GLD or SLV paper metals but you'll help grow this operation. This just isn't a good idea. I've seen this before. It's being replicated in the digital sense. Well, paper stocks are digital but you hopefully get my point.

Flashman

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Hodl!

BFL ASICs ROI gets shaky with a $60 bitcoin at 1,500,000,000 difficulty ... but I guess there's Europeans with 50c per kilowatt/hour power bills.

To any actual buyers, seriously, I mean SERIOUSLY complaining about AM's first round hardware pricing, I'd say it was probably a cheap lesson in impulse control, vs ending up on a murder charge or something. If you were oblivious at the time, some 90% of the bitcoin world were standing back, pointing, and laughing at you.

bitfair

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Quote from: dogie on June 30, 2013, 10:48:48 PM

Quote from: bitfair on June 30, 2013, 10:37:54 PM

Quote from: dogie on June 30, 2013, 10:24:07 PM

Yes, he issued 200k shares to the public, kept 200k shares for himself. He has since sold another 40k shares into the wild which generated him pure cash.

Yes, he and the other founders kept 200k shares as "sweat equity" and that was clearly stated in their contract. What difference does that make? And I don't believe he has sold another 40k shares, but then again, what difference does that make? There has been no dilution - the total number of shares has always been 400k.

Look at the link I gave you http://www.asicminer.co/about.html
163,962 are now owned by AM. So a further 36,038 were sold into the market to generate cash.

You are reading it wrong. 163,962 ASICMINER shares were sold to the public during the IPO approximately one year ago, and 236,038 shares are held by the founders (a.k.a. Bitfountain). As far as I know, these numbers have not changed since the IPO was complete.

dogie

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Quote from: bitfair on June 30, 2013, 10:37:54 PM

Quote from: dogie on June 30, 2013, 10:24:07 PM

Yes, he issued 200k shares to the public, kept 200k shares for himself. He has since sold another 40k shares into the wild which generated him pure cash.

Yes, he and the other founders kept 200k shares as "sweat equity" and that was clearly stated in their contract. What difference does that make? And I don't believe he has sold another 40k shares, but then again, what difference does that make? There has been no dilution - the total number of shares has always been 400k.

Look at the link I gave you http://www.asicminer.co/about.html
163,962 are now owned by AM. So a further 36,038 were sold into the market to generate cash.

dan99

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a bit of bashing now they worry about their investments in those virtual shares from AM. Better sell them off.

bitfair

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Quote from: Paladin69 on June 30, 2013, 10:42:17 PM

Not people buying shares so one guy can mine more. Christ. Central bank shit right there.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that: 400k shares were issued approximately one year ago when the company first started. Approximately 160k were sold at 0.1 BTC each to raise funds for the fabrication of the first chips, and the remaining shares belong to the founders. No more shares have been issued, so there has been no dilution in the equity.

Care to explain more closely what you mean by that statement, I'm not sure I understand entirely what you are implying?

hardpick

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Football President

Quote from: af_newbie on June 30, 2013, 10:35:51 PM

They only competition they might have is from BFL.

If BFL starts selling/delivering chips (that are technologically better than anything out there), ASICMiner will have a hard time keeping up.

I don't agree - BFL chip use too much power 60 GH single should have being 60 watts not 280 watts --BFL may deliver 800 to 1000 TH but all it means is a lot of miner will have bad roi--- - maybe kncminer with there 100GH chip which is suposed to be low power .

firefop

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Quote from: Paladin69 on June 30, 2013, 08:07:57 PM

Quote from: afro25 on June 30, 2013, 08:00:01 PM

The way I understand it is that they plan on bringing 800-1000TH online in the event that their market share (of global hash rate) falls significantly.
They planned to keep at least 10-20% of the network and add/remove hash rate as the total hash rate fluctuates. I can't see that they'll just bring online 1000TH and shoot straight to 90%+ of the network, as that might kill trust in Bitcoin (and thus the whole point of Asicminer's existence). If the network shoots up to 1000TH+, then I would expect them to start seriously flipping the power switches on new machines to keep up, but I doubt they'll bring online that much unless they need to.

Well that makes me feel a bit better I guess. Sorry I'm new around here and I don't know their intentions or the integrity of friedcat. It currently feels like they are in it for themselves. But if they are talking about it from the angle of securing the network then I guess that is cool. What I see right now is all I can go on...and that currently is USB sticks & blades that are WAY overpriced that are being sold to suckers while they have the luxury of mining for themselves what they develop.

Just save a little for the rest of us ASICMINER. Otherwise we can't continue to keep buying your cheap Chinese stuff...lol The West and the East needs to work together to destroy the fiat central banking overlords. China is showing a growth path that will do a bit too much dominating for my liking. I agree with you. Bitcoin will fail if they grow the network too large too quickly.

I hope KNC has an upgrade path program when their 2nd generation ASIC's come online...sorta like what BFL did for their FPGA customers. But if all I am doing is using all my BTC to keep up with each new generation because ASICMINER is pigging it all then it doesn't make much sense to stay in the game.

I can't speak for the veracity if friedcat's claims...

What I can say is this. ASICMINER is the middle of the road for current gen asics. They better be milking the cow beyond just "building more units" because they're going to have to downsize the process to keep up long term. If They don't... then they'll rolled up by the middle of next year at the latest (or whenever knc ships which should imo be around the same time). Even if I'm completely wrong... and they don't understand this... and keep just making more... eventually the side costs will kill them...

They also have the disadvantage of having shareholders... so some of the profit is probably going there. I have doubts about their ability to keep up if a much smaller process comes out...

dan99

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Poor thing a lot of these AM trolls or Shills really counting on AM. Better sell off your shares.

Paladin69

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Quote from: bitfair on June 30, 2013, 10:37:54 PM

Mining was designed to be a competitive business from the start and not a charity. ASICMINER is playing by the same rules as everybody else - and they are very good at it!

Quote from: dogie on June 30, 2013, 10:24:07 PM

Yes, he issued 200k shares to the public, kept 200k shares for himself. He has since sold another 40k shares into the wild which generated him pure cash.

Yes, he and the other founders kept 200k shares as "sweat equity" and that was clearly stated in their contract. What difference does that make? And I don't believe he has sold another 40k shares, but then again, what difference does that make? There has been no dilution - the total number of shares has always been 400k.

Quote from: dan99 on June 30, 2013, 10:23:19 PM

The questions is who bought all these Over Price Hardware from him? Especially the USB AsicMiner? Who is help by a group of co-hots namely those who started the group buys and those middle men who go for the Quick Buck. It is the Westerners who bought all of these over price stuffs from him. Who to blame? Avalon may go big time into mining nobody knows. If all the Westerners boycott Chinese Mining Hardware from China that may slow down the growth of AM and those from China.

Are you making it an ethnic argument now? Us vs. Them? What difference does it make that ASICMINER is based in China?

Quote from: Paladin69 on June 30, 2013, 10:20:52 PM

ASICMINER is just taking advantage of the stupidity. I can't blame them for trying. Ventures like this will turn mining into a scammy TV infomercial if they continue to be supported.

I assume you are referring to the price of the hardware again. They have no obligation to sell their hardware for less than they think it is worth - which is what the highest bidder is willing to pay. Nobody is obliged to sell you a Ferrari at the price of a Toyota just because your notion of "fair" says so. ASICMINER has an obligation to maximise value for shareholders, and that is what they are doing.

Anyway, if you have any suggestions on how things can be done differently, then please make them - but "just slow down and let others win the race" does not really make sense business-wise.

Anybody can do what they want but my original point still stands that you yourself pointed out.

Quote

...possibly with the exception of competing miners and hardware manufacturers.

Only support companies like KNC, BFL, and Avalon who all claim to only use testnet before shipping to customers.

Again the only reason why I care about this is to disperse the network hashrate democratically. It is really not a good idea to let one person control so much. Yes more big companies will come along eventually, but don't let it happen willfully if you can help it. Those bigger companies down the road will have a harder time if more miners are involved.

Not people buying shares so one guy can mine more. Christ. Central bank shit right there. And people still proudly admit to supporting it. **face_palm**

People really have no idea what they are helping to grow there.

Wayne_Chang

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Quote from: logicbomb666 on June 30, 2013, 10:32:55 PM

I do have to say, it's refreshing seeing a thread full of this much negativity that is not directed towards BFL.

Disclaimer- I own shares of ASICMiner and fully support them and think they are awesome. I also am not a big fan of BFL.

Agree. 2 guys compete, then others blame on the winner.
Don't you think it's strange?

bitfair

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Mining was designed to be a competitive business from the start and not a charity. ASICMINER is playing by the same rules as everybody else - and they are very good at it!

Quote from: dogie on June 30, 2013, 10:24:07 PM

Yes, he issued 200k shares to the public, kept 200k shares for himself. He has since sold another 40k shares into the wild which generated him pure cash.

Yes, he and the other founders kept 200k shares as "sweat equity" and that was clearly stated in their contract. What difference does that make? And I don't believe he has sold another 40k shares, but then again, what difference does that make? There has been no dilution - the total number of shares has always been 400k.

Quote from: dan99 on June 30, 2013, 10:23:19 PM

The questions is who bought all these Over Price Hardware from him? Especially the USB AsicMiner? Who is help by a group of co-hots namely those who started the group buys and those middle men who go for the Quick Buck. It is the Westerners who bought all of these over price stuffs from him. Who to blame? Avalon may go big time into mining nobody knows. If all the Westerners boycott Chinese Mining Hardware from China that may slow down the growth of AM and those from China.

Are you making it an ethnic argument now? Us vs. Them? What difference does it make that ASICMINER is based in China?

Quote from: Paladin69 on June 30, 2013, 10:20:52 PM

ASICMINER is just taking advantage of the stupidity. I can't blame them for trying. Ventures like this will turn mining into a scammy TV infomercial if they continue to be supported.

I assume you are referring to the price of the hardware again. They have no obligation to sell their hardware for less than they think it is worth - which is what the highest bidder is willing to pay. Nobody is obliged to sell you a Ferrari at the price of a Toyota just because your notion of "fair" says so. ASICMINER has an obligation to maximise value for shareholders, and that is what they are doing.

Anyway, if you have any suggestions on how things can be done differently, then please make them - but "just slow down and let others win the race" does not really make sense business-wise.

dogie

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Quote from: af_newbie on June 30, 2013, 10:35:51 PM

They only competition they might have is from BFL.

If BFL starts selling/delivering chips (that are technologically better than anything out there), ASICMiner will have a hard time keeping up.

But they're not. Avalon/ASICMiner gen 1 are similar efficiencies. BFL is 50% more efficient on gen 1, but they cant even deploy a few TH after 12 months. ASICMiner gen 2 is here in a few weeks, BFL has no answer for that for a LONG time.

af_newbie

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They only competition they might have is from BFL.

If BFL starts selling/delivering chips (that are technologically better than anything out there), ASICMiner will have a hard time keeping up.

Paladin69

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Quote from: eve on June 30, 2013, 10:32:36 PM

may be someone need to report to the authorities in China about this illegal thing, AM is doing or get someone to shut down or destroyed his mining farm is doable for sure. Does anyone has the IP Address, that can be track.?

Well I don't like governments so I can't say I'd condone this. But the free market can naturally slow this activity down if it isn't supported.

Topic: Why are people cheering that ASICMINER will bring 800-1000TH online this year? - page 7. (Read 9200 times)