It's good that after 4 years someone finally stepped in and explained to us why bitcoin will fail. Thank you OP! 
AHAHAHAHA,
For some reason that response made me laugh my arss off.
Its so fitting, and true.
Nice one PandP!
Topic: Why Bitcoin will collapse in price. - page 11. (Read 24584 times)
AHAHAHAHA,
For some reason that response made me laugh my arss off.
Its so fitting, and true.
Nice one PandP!
To paraphrase Eric Voorhees,
Bitcoin is unfortunately the name of two things.
1) it is the name of the Bitcoin protocol, which describes how the block chain, mining, etc. works.
This protocol performs some useful functions that no other money system can currently match. (Fast cheap transfer to any where in the world, robust etc etc) The Bitcoin protocol clearly has a value, and the value comes from its utility.
2) The Bitcoin protocol has been implemented to allow transfer of a digital currency, this currency is also called Bitcoin. A Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and is commonly misuderstood to be what Bitcoin is all about.
Bitcoin is unfortunately the name of two things.
1) it is the name of the Bitcoin protocol, which describes how the block chain, mining, etc. works.
This protocol performs some useful functions that no other money system can currently match. (Fast cheap transfer to any where in the world, robust etc etc) The Bitcoin protocol clearly has a value, and the value comes from its utility.
2) The Bitcoin protocol has been implemented to allow transfer of a digital currency, this currency is also called Bitcoin. A Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and is commonly misuderstood to be what Bitcoin is all about.
1) Any widespread media of exchange that ever existed, always had inherent value (something). The reason for this is that people will only exchange something for something. NOBDODY! wants to exchange something for nothing. Bitcoin has no inherent value (examples of inherent value: water thirst, food hunger, house shelter, gold, art decoration/pretty/ industry). Thus bitcoin has already failed in this aspect.
There is no inherent value to anything as far as human valuation is concerned. Each man has his own conception of value (that is why it is called subjective value in the first place) over anything. If it were otherwise, no exchange would ever be possible at all. People exchange goods only because their subjective valuation of the goods that change hands differs...
Bitcoin is not useful now and therefore wont be useful in future.
Good that you are telling what is useful and what is not
Get a new account and try again 
Bitcoin is valuable (or has value, if such form suits you better) to those people who find the properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims. These are security, deflationary nature, fixed supply and limited number of coins ultimately possible to mine. Probably, there are some other properties that contribute to its subjective valuation by people, but these will suffice. Once you get the hang how things actually work with respect to valuation, everything will become clear and easily comprehensible...
"who find properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims."
Well obviously people believe (aims?) that bitcoin can be a 1) medium of exchange and 2) store of value.
I have already given a specific list of bitcoin properties that people here usually consider useful for attaining their ends. These properties give Bitcoin subjective value to those who need them. Is this really so hard to understand? And please stop conjuring up what was not written in my post and trying then to refute what you just concocted. This looks really ugly...
Bitcoin is valuable because???
Say why you think Bitcoin has value!!
Say why you think Bitcoin has value!!
Bitcoin is valuable (or has value, if such form suits you better) to those people who find the properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims. These are security, deflationary nature, fixed supply and limited number of coins ultimately possible to mine. Probably, there are some other properties that contribute to its subjective valuation by people, but these will suffice. Once you get the hang how things actually work with respect to valuation, everything will become clear and easily comprehensible...
"who find properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims."
Well obviously people believe (aims?) that bitcoin can be a 1) medium of exchange and 2) store of value.
I have already established why both of these functions require! certain properties to be present, that bitcoin does not have.
1) Any widespread media of exchange that ever existed, always had inherent value (something). The reason for this is that people will only exchange something for something. NOBDODY! wants to exchange something for nothing. Bitcoin has no inherent value (examples of inherent value: water thirst, food hunger, house shelter, gold, art decoration/pretty/ industry). Thus bitcoin has already failed in this aspect.
2) If nobody wants to exchange something for nothing (bitcoin), bitcoin cant be a store of value.
"To act as a store of value, these forms must be able to be saved and retrieved at a later time, and be predictably useful when retrieved." WIKI
Bitcoin is not useful now and therefore wont be useful in future. Thus it fails to meet the requirements of a store of value as well.
Again you have not made an argument against my position.
Now right now people pay for Bitcoin because they think it will go up in price. This might be the case, but it will revert to its inherent value: 0.
Tullips (at they had some value) where once enormously expensive. Does that mean that Tulips where worth their price?
Of course, if you found someone to buy it.
Why would somebody buy nothing (bitcoin) for something (goods)?
In case of tulips, history has just proven that people did buy them.
In case of Biotcoins, it seems that they are buying them too.
You are just showing that markets are often irrational. Congratulations.
But here is the thing : they don't have to be rational.
Ok what's next ?
Tullips (at they had some value) where once enormously expensive. Does that mean that Tulips where worth their price?
Of course, if you found someone to buy it.
Why would somebody buy nothing (bitcoin) for something (goods)?
Bitcoin is valuable (or has value, if such form suits you better) to those people who find the properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims. These are security, deflationary nature, fixed supply and limited number of coins ultimately possible to mine. Probably, there are some other properties that contribute to its subjective valuation by people, but these will suffice. Once you get the hang how things actually work with respect to valuation, everything will become clear and easily comprehensible...
ok: lets say we are in 17th century and you are a merchant.
I'm a magician and i tell you that i can sell you a magic paper with some unique proprieties:
1 everything you write ther will stay forever
2 everybody in the world can check the content.
there is no way to destroy or alterate this paper.
Do you think this is worth something more than a tulip?
I'm a magician and i tell you that i can sell you a magic paper with some unique proprieties:
1 everything you write ther will stay forever
2 everybody in the world can check the content.
there is no way to destroy or alterate this paper.
Do you think this is worth something more than a tulip?
Tullips (at they had some value) where once enormously expensive. Does that mean that Tulips where worth their price?
Of course, if you found someone to buy it.
Why would somebody buy nothing (bitcoin) for something (goods)?
It is beyond my understanding why to are so desperate trying to convince us that the Bitcoin is worth nothing.
Unless you have an agenda and are paid by bankers or something alike, which I could understand,
why don't you just leave this place ? You will NOT convince us that $900 = 0 whatever you say.
Everything is worth something on this planet, even dirt or sand, or shit (some country use it to be converted into gas).
Whether you agree on the current pricing of these thing or not is irrelevant.
You don't make the market's prices.
Unless you have an agenda and are paid by bankers or something alike, which I could understand,
why don't you just leave this place ? You will NOT convince us that $900 = 0 whatever you say.
Everything is worth something on this planet, even dirt or sand, or shit (some country use it to be converted into gas).
Whether you agree on the current pricing of these thing or not is irrelevant.
You don't make the market's prices.
You say bitcoin has value. You say I have to just read this post to understand:
1) Bitcoin has no intrinsic value, 2) the network does. Thats what everyone is missing altogether and or misrepresenting.
3) The networks value is derived from it's ability to send value across political and geographic borders, nearly instantly and dirt cheap, with minimum effort. Additionaly it enables this without the risks commonly found in traditional financial instruments and value stores. Risks like hyper-inflation, manipulation, ceisure or other meddling by governments or institutions for whatever reason.
The ability to move value is enormously valuable.
3) The networks value is derived from it's ability to send value across political and geographic borders, nearly instantly and dirt cheap, with minimum effort. Additionaly it enables this without the risks commonly found in traditional financial instruments and value stores. Risks like hyper-inflation, manipulation, ceisure or other meddling by governments or institutions for whatever reason.
The ability to move value is enormously valuable.
1) He agrees with me that Bitcoin has no value for itself (like for example water that quenches thirst, food to feed my children). This statement is obviously true, as I cant do anything with 1 bitcoin.
2) He says the network of miners gives bitcoin value (how? the bitcoins are not a claim on the mining equipment. I cant sell the mining equipment or take it in my possession. Again dollar bills once where a claim on gold that I could take in my possession).
3) He says "the networks value is derived from its ability to send value instantly and dirt cheap".
Now when he refers to "sending value" he is talking about bitcoins. Because after all you are sending bitcoins. However as he has established in the first part of his first sentence "Bitcoin has no (intrinsic) value". So he is contradicting himself.
To summarize the information he gives us: 1 Bitcoin has no value (=nothing) and this absence of value can be sent at a cost.
Now how exactly is this convincing?
As I said previously: Incurring costs (energy which is something) to send nothing does not make nothing valuable. It is a waste of energy.
Tullips (at they had some value) where once enormously expensive. Does that mean that Tulips where worth their price?
Of course, if you found someone to buy it.
It is beyond my understanding why to are so desperate trying to convince us that the Bitcoin is worth nothing.
Unless you have an agenda and are paid by bankers or something alike, which I could understand,
why don't you just leave this place ? You will NOT convince us that $900 = 0 whatever you say.
Everything is worth something on this planet, even dirt or sand, or shit (some country use it to be converted into gas).
Whether you agree on the current pricing of these thing or not is irrelevant.
You don't make the market's prices.
Unless you have an agenda and are paid by bankers or something alike, which I could understand,
why don't you just leave this place ? You will NOT convince us that $900 = 0 whatever you say.
Everything is worth something on this planet, even dirt or sand, or shit (some country use it to be converted into gas).
Whether you agree on the current pricing of these thing or not is irrelevant.
You don't make the market's prices.
Tullips (at they had some value) where once enormously expensive. Does that mean that Tulips where worth their price?
It is beyond my understanding why to are so desperate trying to convince us that the Bitcoin is worth nothing.
Unless you have an agenda and are paid by bankers or something alike, which I could understand,
why don't you just leave this place ? You will NOT convince us that $900 = 0 whatever you say.
Everything is worth something on this planet, even dirt or sand, or shit (some country use it to be converted into gas).
Whether you agree on the current pricing of these thing or not is irrelevant.
You don't make the market's prices.
Unless you have an agenda and are paid by bankers or something alike, which I could understand,
why don't you just leave this place ? You will NOT convince us that $900 = 0 whatever you say.
Everything is worth something on this planet, even dirt or sand, or shit (some country use it to be converted into gas).
Whether you agree on the current pricing of these thing or not is irrelevant.
You don't make the market's prices.
As for bitcoins actual value. 1) There are a ton of people who assume bitcoin has absolutely no intrinsic value, because it is not "directly backed by anything" - 2) However, most of these people are technologically incompetent people who do not realize the true value of information technology and it's respective system. The platform, the system, the blockchain, is what has value. The very core of bitcoin's structure, and it's ever-increasing infrastructural development, is what contains value. Does not the city of New York hold value? Of course it does. Does not Facebook hold value? Of course it does. They are two widely different "businesses", in that one is purely material and the other is not, however both hold value in their own way.
1) No they formulate it incorrectly. They say: Dollar had value (back in the day) because it was backed by gold. And gold has value because it is pretty to look at. So the dollar bill itself has no value (nothing). It derives its value because it is a claim on gold (back in the day it did).
Now bitcoin is like the dollar bill (actually worse because you cant burn it to create heat). It is nothing. I cant do anything with a bitcoin. Now you say well true, but its backed by the miners. Well that does not add value. I cant redeem the miners and sell them can I? Now some bitcoiners will say: Well you can transfer bitcoin cheaply. Well just because I can transfer nothing cheaply (what a waste I have after all transferred NOTHING) does not mean that nothing thus is something. Its still nothing. If the bitcoin arrives at my place I can still not do anything with it can I?
2) The comparison to facebook is totally flawed. I can do stuff with facebook. What can I do with bitcoin? Nothing.
Now i am 100% confident you are an absolute troll. There is no way someone who has the competence to know what bitcoin is, actually makes those assumptions and claims that you do. You can do stuff with facebook, but you can't do anything with bitcoin? Are you seirous? - I'll let you take a breather and come back on this one, because i genuinely don't believe you are completely incompetent.
Edit: Read this: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-price-is-the-value-the-value-of-bitcoin-explained-really-363779
Ok now we are getting somewhere. Golds value is that it is pretty. Now sometimes pretty is not priced highly in the market (if everyone is starving). That is a different issue. Its like this with every luxury good. Might there be extreme scenarios when even the farmer is starving and does not want to trade food for gold/silver. Yes. But its unlikely.
Now Bitcoin is worth nothing. Why would anybody ever accept nothing for something?
This is why Bitcoin cant work.
Now Bitcoin is worth nothing. Why would anybody ever accept nothing for something?
This is why Bitcoin cant work.
From what you have said, dollars were worth nothing when they first started too. But everyone decided to agree they were worth something and then allowed the government in those early days to use them etc.. They are a standard exchange now because they are established. Bitcoins COULD work and equally they could fail in which case they would be worth nothing. But a lot of us don't think that will happen.
No its different. Initially we used gold and silver as money. They were something. But because it was cumbersome (gold silver are heaving, typical for somethings
) we started trading paper claims on gold and silver (dollars, aka money substitutes). These where something because they where backed by gold. Now Nixon (I think it was him) removed the gold backing and effectively made dollars nothing. But he replaced gold with government force. We have to accept dollars and thus we trade something for nothing. This would never happen in the free market. This is why Bitcoin wont succeed.
As for bitcoins actual value. 1) There are a ton of people who assume bitcoin has absolutely no intrinsic value, because it is not "directly backed by anything" - 2) However, most of these people are technologically incompetent people who do not realize the true value of information technology and it's respective system. The platform, the system, the blockchain, is what has value. The very core of bitcoin's structure, and it's ever-increasing infrastructural development, is what contains value. Does not the city of New York hold value? Of course it does. Does not Facebook hold value? Of course it does. They are two widely different "businesses", in that one is purely material and the other is not, however both hold value in their own way.
1) No they formulate it incorrectly. They say: Dollar had value (back in the day) because it was backed by gold. And gold has value because it is pretty to look at. So the dollar bill itself has no value (nothing). It derives its value because it is a claim on gold (back in the day it did).
Now bitcoin is like the dollar bill (actually worse because you cant burn it to create heat). It is nothing. I cant do anything with a bitcoin. Now you say well true, but its backed by the miners. Well that does not add value. I cant redeem the miners and sell them can I? Now some bitcoiners will say: Well you can transfer bitcoin cheaply. Well just because I can transfer nothing cheaply (what a waste I have after all transferred NOTHING) does not mean that nothing thus is something. Its still nothing. If the bitcoin arrives at my place I can still not do anything with it can I?
2) The comparison to facebook is totally flawed. I can do stuff with facebook. What can I do with bitcoin? Nothing.
Ok now we are getting somewhere. Golds value is that it is pretty. Now sometimes pretty is not priced highly in the market (if everyone is starving). That is a different issue. Its like this with every luxury good. Might there be extreme scenarios when even the farmer is starving and does not want to trade food for gold/silver. Yes. But its unlikely.
Now Bitcoin is worth nothing. Why would anybody ever accept nothing for something?
This is why Bitcoin cant work.
Now Bitcoin is worth nothing. Why would anybody ever accept nothing for something?
This is why Bitcoin cant work.
From what you have said, dollars were worth nothing when they first started too. But everyone decided to agree they were worth something and then allowed the government in those early days to use them etc.. They are a standard exchange now because they are established. Bitcoins COULD work and equally they could fail in which case they would be worth nothing. But a lot of us don't think that will happen.
Bitcoin is valuable because???
Say why you think Bitcoin has value!!
Say why you think Bitcoin has value!!
Bitcoin is valuable (or has value, if such form suits you better) to those people who find the properties inherent to it useful for the achievement of their aims. These are security, deflationary nature, fixed supply and limited number of coins ultimately possible to mine. Probably, there are some other properties that contribute to its subjective valuation by people, but these will suffice. Once you get the hang how things actually work with respect to valuation, everything will become clear and easily comprehensible...
USD only is accepted because of force. Why would you need force? Because a dollar is nothing.
Now a Bitcoin is nothing as well but without force.
If a merchant asks you: Why should I accept bitcoin? You: I dont know its worth nothing but maybe some other guy will accept nothing for something.
If a merchant asks me: Why should I accept your dollars? Me: Because if you dont government will lock you up.
See the difference.
Now a Bitcoin is nothing as well but without force.
If a merchant asks you: Why should I accept bitcoin? You: I dont know its worth nothing but maybe some other guy will accept nothing for something.
If a merchant asks me: Why should I accept your dollars? Me: Because if you dont government will lock you up.
See the difference.
You don't need force to agree something is worth something, otherwise what is the value of gold? Exactly as you say - it has value because it's pretty to look at, not because someone is forcing you to USE it. And we use fiat because we trust our government will ensure it stays a medium we can exchange for essentials to survive, not so much because we're FORCED to.
Read before you write! I am talking about dollars which are nothing and how they become something (by government force). Now gold is something because it looks pretty. Why is bitcoin something?
You are correct: I dont need force to agree that something is worth something. But I do need to be forced by government to agree to nothing (dollar) is worth something (goods). Get it? How is the bitcoin community going to convince me that nothing (bitcoin) is worth something??
Bitcoin doesn't have value because it exists, it has value because it's useful. If you review the merchants accepting Bitcoin you will see how useful it is, thus why it has value.
Yes. Absolutely no difference between Gold and Gold 2.0
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