Topic: Why Bitcoin will collapse in price. - page 7. (Read 24584 times)

Read again. That was not the point. Speculators need to move to the best investment as price of BTC peaks. Read that part.

This:


Also, Bitcoin has no utility (except perhaps as the government coin).

This is very interesting to me. Im new to the whole bitcoin thing. Im looking at these posts and I see what you are saying.

Im reading both sides and really trying to comprehend which side has a leg up on the other in their forcasting of the future.

You are right, no one is debating that they have control of the money now. But just because wars have been fought, this doesnt mean that the players and rules wont change. They always have, as youve read your world history.

1
Before the internet they had a pretty good hold of the information that flowed in mass. Thats changed. Maybe someone with a server has been executed, but you didnt see it take down that information revolution. You can downplay it if you want, but we all know that the internet changed the world. Heck, if someone was explaining to me in 1990 what the internet would become, Id would have said the same thing you are now. But they are not about to start killing miners, so we can let that one go.

2
Medium of exchange
So these merchants arent going to want to do the paperwork on their extra profits, and the piece of those profits that go to the government? I say they will do the paperwork gladly if they make a SECOND profit just because they used bitcoin as the medium of exchange. They would rather keep the dollar and give away the profit from the bitcoin, because some of that profit is going to the government? That didnt make sense to me either. ??

3
Store of vaule
The problem will be the opposite? They may horde it BECAUSE they make extra money by dealing in bitcoins. So I think the store of vaule problem, the way youre explaining it isnt going to be it.

4
There are many concerns I think we all have about bitcoins. I just havent seen them brought up here except the point that bitcoin could fall to another crypto. That is possible I guess. The reason Im planing on buying bitcoins (I dont have any yet Im poor as of the moment- 1B7YJ965v5KfZpLs7PDWWeZVYYwMtgsDzE     lol )  Im going to invest in them because they are used like the dollars in your example. People use Bitcoin to buy cryptos rite now. That wont last forever, but neither will The Money Monopoly either. At the very least it must change sometime. Why not now? We got the Information from them and look what we have here. IDK They just sound a little closer to me than you. But Im the new guy.

Its a showcase! Its not about counterfeiting; its about enforcing the dollar monopoly (""a unique form of domestic terrorism" that is trying "to undermine the legitimate currency of this country").

The devil is in the details, bro:

A federal grand jury brought an indictment against von NotHaus and three others ...charged with one count of conspiracy to possess and sell coins in resemblance and similitude of coins of a denomination higher than five cents, and silver coins in resemblance of genuine coins of the United States in denominations of five dollars and greater, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 485, 18 U.S.C. § 486, and 18 U.S.C. § 371; one count of mail fraud in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1341 and 18 U.S.C. § 2; one count of selling, and possessing with intent to defraud, coins of resemblance and similitude of United States coins in denominations of five cents and higher, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 485 and 18 U.S.C. § 2; and one count of uttering, passing, and attempting to utter and pass, silver coins in resemblance of genuine U.S. coins in denominations of five dollars or greater, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 486 and 18 U.S.C. § 2.[24]

Bitcoins aren't actually coins (smh)

"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws."  Mayer Amschel Rothschild


1) Method 1: Prohibition of alternatives and showcases

"The Liberty Dollar (ALD) was a private currency produced in the United States. The currency was issued in minted metal rounds (i.e. coins), gold and silver certificates and electronic currency (eLD). ALD certificates are "warehouse receipts" for real gold and silver owned by the bearer. According to court documents there were about 250,000 holders of Liberty Dollar certificates.[1] The metal was warehoused at Sunshine Minting in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, prior to a November 2007 raid by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and the Secret Service.[2] Until July 2009, the Liberty Dollar was distributed by Liberty Services (formerly known as "National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and the Internal Revenue Code" (NORFED), based in Evansville, Indiana. It was created by Bernard von NotHaus, the co-founder of the Royal Hawaiian Mint Company.[3]
In May 2009, von NotHaus and others were charged with federal crimes in connection with the Liberty Dollar and, on July 31, 2009, von NotHaus announced that he had closed the Liberty Dollar operation, pending resolution of the criminal charges.[4] On March 18, 2011, von NotHaus was pronounced guilty of "making, possessing, and selling his own currency".

"Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina, Anne M. Tompkins, described the Liberty Dollar as "a unique form of domestic terrorism" that is trying "to undermine the legitimate currency of this country".[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

2) Method 2 (soft force): Killing off media of exchange competition via capital gains tax law:

Germany:

"After a parliamentary inquiry, Germany has clarified its position on Bitcoin. The federal ministry of finance recognized Bitcoins as “units of account” — the cryptocurrency is therefore be considered as “private money”. That’s why, according to Die Welt, the government stated that there wouldn’t be a tax exemption on commercial activities that use Bitcoins. In addition to paying capital gains tax, Bitcoin users should now pay sales tax (VAT) as well."

Capital gains tax in Germany: 25%

http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/19/germany-recognizes-bitcoin-as-private-money-sales-tax-coming-soon/

US:

"Did you know that almost everything you own and use for personal or investment purposes is a capital asset? Capital assets include a home, household furnishings and stocks and bonds held in a personal account. When a capital asset is sold, the difference between the amount you paid for the asset and the amount you sold it for is a capital gain or capital loss.
Here are ten facts from the IRS about gains and losses and how they can affect your Federal income tax return.

1) Almost everything you own and use for personal purposes, pleasure or investment is a capital asset.

2) When you sell a capital asset, the difference between the amount you sell it for and your basis – which is usually what you paid for it – is a capital gain or a capital loss.

3) You must report all capital gains. "

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Ten-Important-Facts-About-Capital-Gains-and-Losses

Although there are some offshore bank accounts that advertise as tax havens, U.S. law requires reporting of income from those accounts, and willful failure to do so constitutes tax evasion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax#United_States

Its a matter of perspective, some see it as a medium of exchange, others as a pseudo-commodity that can be held / traded for real currency, in the latter case it is seen as a form of investment and in this way its capability to act as a medium of exchange with merchants bears little relevance. By analogy, merchants do not use gold or other commodities as a medium of exchange, yet they have value.


Pretty sure someone has corrected you on this point already, there is no single central world bank that regulates currency, as such all major governments would have to be on board to destroy the use of cryptos, in any case your proposition is baseless, there is no way for you to know governments are going to ban bitcoins.


Cool, so basically you're scared, in that case sell your bitcoins and move on ?

NB: It is and has always been the people who provided the impetus for the development and evolution of bitcoins and cryptocurrencies, these people have been staunch supporters of anarchy and anonymity, they have never relied on any government for assistance. Therefore so long as the people will it, use of crypto currencies will rise, but if the people are fearful of governments or a centralized power in general, that fear will allow those in power to walk over those who support such a movement, and destroy cryptos. If you do believe in the movement, and do believe in cryptos you should remain positive and do whatever you can to promote them, if you are only in it to make money, well, I hope you lose it all.

sorry, but if you are pointing there on a non constant regression line (like rpitelia's) this, i think, does not affect the overall s shaped quality of the curve... I'm a newbie here so i like to share thoughts. Very interesting matter, indeed.

Incorrect.

That's an interesting point. But I can't get if your are talking about the price or the "adoption", i mean: a speculator "adopts" bitcoins iff he buys them once, it doesn't matter if he sells them after.  And that should be S shaped.

Also "hoarding function" should be S shaped, where hoarding means truly belive in long term prospects of bitcoin and do not sell  under a very high price.

We need a model of demand/supply, given this two S shaped extremes. Just thinking loudly.

I'm happy that those doom and gloom glorifying folks, NWO racists, religious wackos and people like you, which are experts on everything and think to know everything but spending a lifetime on a forum trying to proselytize, will never join the group i'm in. At least we agree on this

@knarzo:

Some monkeys would rather the group dies than for one monkey to be admitted to be a natural leader.

Those groups perish.

(implication is I won't be joining your group)

Yeah. You're the smartest person here round. At least i figured that out with my lowlevel iq

Lol. Surely you can analyze our writing styles. Please don't hold me responsible for what porc says. I will clearly state where I agree and disagree with him.

His intellect is reasonable but not at my level. So it should be clear we are not the same person.


You really can't for the most part. Because your anonymity depends on what the other users do since it is only valid if a process of elimination isn't going to work.

You need some education.

That does not prove you are different people. I have had arguments with my sock puppet before. Usually he agrees with me, but there was one time he was just being difficult and argumentative while playing the devil's advocate.


You can use bitcoin to hide all or some of your money, but it is also quite easy to show off how much you have using bitcoins, just point to an address with a large balance and sign something using the private key for that address.

The S-curve, logistic model can not apply to Bitcoin. Alternative link.

No. porc and I argued recently on the anonymity point.

I agree with his very strong point about capital gains (or VAT in UK and arguably else where) taxes due on Bitcoin but not on legal tender. I disagree with his other points and specifically I think anonymity can defeat the government (but Bitcoin doesn't have it).

He doesn't yet see there is fight coming on anonymity. You either bend over and take in the ass from a bankrupt world (current debt is $150 trillion) or you go anonymous.

Actually, I was not writing in all these threads for that guy exclusively since it has become pretty evident pretty soon that his agenda was not to get the hang of the things...

I want to end my contribution to this thread with this post.

I just want to remind to anybody who is taking the time to carefully present arguments in this thread, that even if porc is not listening to you, you are not wasting your time, since other people like me are interested in these arguments. This thread provided me with good insights about the viability of bitcoin, and as a result I'm more convinced than ever of its great future.

yes it does, but we have to think about the origins of money, gold was choosen because of it advertising effect at those times the only way to advertise was via clothes and fetishes. Now we have the net, and cryptocurrencies make the net itself their form of advertising.

I thank pork for this useful conversation, but i think he is plain wrong given he thinks money has to have some use value different from acceptance. Gold is absolutely useless, he might have said in other times, and with good reason. But if we focus on the reason why gold was choosen (or wampum shells) it's because "useless" means undestructible, one of the 3 proprieties of a good store of value. (and bitcoin DOES HAVE this important prorpiety).

It seems that behind satoshi there is Nick Szabo.     http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/527078/20131203/satoshi-nakamoto-nick-szabo-bitcoin-creator-revealed.htm
 i tfind usefeul his paper on th origins fo money (especially when it talks about the adoption of wampum shells).http://szabo.best.vwh.net/shell.html