Topic: Why Bitcoin will collapse in price. - page 12. (Read 24607 times)

Quote from: porc on December 09, 2013, 10:35:07 AM

USD only is accepted because of force. Why would you need force? Because a dollar is nothing.

Now a Bitcoin is nothing as well but without force.

If a merchant asks you: Why should I accept bitcoin? You: I dont know its worth nothing but maybe some other guy will accept nothing for something.

If a merchant asks me: Why should I accept your dollars? Me: Because if you dont government will lock you up.

See the difference.

You don't need force to agree something is worth something, otherwise what is the value of gold? Exactly as you say - it has value because it's pretty to look at, not because someone is forcing you to USE it. And we use fiat because we trust our government will ensure it stays a medium we can exchange for essentials to survive, not so much because we're FORCED to.

Read before you write! I am talking about dollars which are nothing and how they become something (by government force). Now gold is something because it looks pretty. Why is bitcoin something?

You are correct: I dont need force to agree that something is worth something. But I do need to be forced by government to agree to nothing (dollar) is worth something (goods). Get it? How is the bitcoin community going to convince me that nothing (bitcoin) is worth something??

Ah, I think I understand your point of view now. You're absolutely right, Bitcoin has zero value because on its own it isn't useful. But then if you value things only on their use, how 'useful' is gold to you when you can only survive on it if someone else gives it value? What if you had a bunch of gold and everyone decided they didn't think it was valuable? A farmer will not trade his crops with your gold and you would starve.

Bitcoin doesn't have value because it exists, it has value because it's useful. If you review the merchants accepting Bitcoin you will see how useful it is, thus why it has value.

Ok now we are getting somewhere. Golds value is that it is pretty. Now sometimes pretty is not priced highly in the market (if everyone is starving). That is a different issue. Its like this with every luxury good. Might there be extreme scenarios when even the farmer is starving and does not want to trade food for gold/silver. Yes. But its unlikely.

Now Bitcoin is worth nothing. Why would anybody ever accept nothing for something?

This is why Bitcoin cant work.

deisik

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Again abstract statements that pretend like bitcoin is in the same league as dollars and gold.

Gold is valuable because it is pretty and nice to look at. Thats why people want it.

Dollars are valuable because government forces people to accept them for payment of goods/debts.

First of all, what you are talking about here ("pretty and nice to look at") is correctly called subjective value, because it exists only in the heads of humans, not by itself. And why do you think that all people universally find gold pretty and nice to look at? Secondly, Zimbabwean dollars are also a legal tender and can be used for payment of goods/debts. But no one wants to deal in with them. Why? Because their subjective value is next to nothing, and people try to get rid of them as soon as possible...

Soulfap

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deed02392

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Quote from: porc on December 09, 2013, 10:48:56 AM

Quote from: deed02392 on December 09, 2013, 10:47:05 AM

Quote from: porc on December 09, 2013, 10:35:07 AM

USD only is accepted because of force. Why would you need force? Because a dollar is nothing.

Now a Bitcoin is nothing as well but without force.

If a merchant asks you: Why should I accept bitcoin? You: I dont know its worth nothing but maybe some other guy will accept nothing for something.

If a merchant asks me: Why should I accept your dollars? Me: Because if you dont government will lock you up.

See the difference.

You don't need force to agree something is worth something, otherwise what is the value of gold? Exactly as you say - it has value because it's pretty to look at, not because someone is forcing you to USE it. And we use fiat because we trust our government will ensure it stays a medium we can exchange for essentials to survive, not so much because we're FORCED to.

Read before you write! I am talking about dollars which are nothing and how they become something (by government force). Now gold is something because it looks pretty. Why is bitcoin something?

You are correct: I dont need force to agree that something is worth something. But I do need to be forced by government to agree to nothing (dollar) is worth something (goods). Get it? How is the bitcoin community going to convince me that nothing (bitcoin) is worth something??

Ah, I think I understand your point of view now. You're absolutely right, Bitcoin has zero value because on its own it isn't useful. But then if you value things only on their use, how 'useful' is gold to you when you can only survive on it if someone else gives it value? What if you had a bunch of gold and everyone decided they didn't think it was valuable? A farmer will not trade his crops with your gold and you would starve.

Bitcoin doesn't have value because it exists, it has value because it's useful. If you review the merchants accepting Bitcoin you will see how useful it is, thus why it has value.

deisik

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Again abstract statements that pretend like bitcoin is in the same league as dollars and gold.

These are not abstract statements, the economic theory behind them has its origins as early as the Middle Ages. Since the 19th century it has been thoroughly developed and is now accepted by most economists as the only one coherently explaining the real life economic phenomena related to valuation...

Do you really think that you are the only one who tried to question its findings or the cleverest among them?

porc

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Quote from: deed02392 on December 09, 2013, 10:47:05 AM

USD only is accepted because of force. Why would you need force? Because a dollar is nothing.

Now a Bitcoin is nothing as well but without force.

If a merchant asks you: Why should I accept bitcoin? You: I dont know its worth nothing but maybe some other guy will accept nothing for something.

If a merchant asks me: Why should I accept your dollars? Me: Because if you dont government will lock you up.

See the difference.

You don't need force to agree something is worth something, otherwise what is the value of gold? Exactly as you say - it has value because it's pretty to look at, not because someone is forcing you to USE it. And we use fiat because we trust our government will ensure it stays a medium we can exchange for essentials to survive, not so much because we're FORCED to.

Read before you write! I am talking about dollars which are nothing and how they become something (by government force). Now gold is something because it looks pretty. Why is bitcoin something?

You are correct: I dont need force to agree that something is worth something. But I do need to be forced by government to agree to nothing (dollar) is worth something (goods). Get it? How is the bitcoin community going to convince me that nothing (bitcoin) is worth something??

deed02392

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Quote from: deed02392 on December 09, 2013, 10:33:55 AM

USD only is accepted because of force. Why would you need force? Because a dollar is nothing.

Now a Bitcoin is nothing as well but without force.

If a merchant asks you: Why should I accept bitcoin? You: I dont know its worth nothing but maybe some other guy will accept nothing for something.

If a merchant asks me: Why should I accept your dollars? Me: Because if you dont government will lock you up.

See the difference.

You don't need force to agree something is worth something, otherwise what is the value of gold? Exactly as you say - it has value because it's pretty to look at, not because someone is forcing you to USE it. And we use fiat because we trust our government will ensure it stays a medium we can exchange for essentials to survive, not so much because we're FORCED to.

porc

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Quote from: porc

Stop diverting. What is bitcoins value? You know it has 0 value but dont want to admit it, as you want to dump it on the next guy.

Water has value. Food has value. Nobody will discuss this. Sometimes it costs more (desert) sometimes less (rainforest). But it has VALUE!

You explain that USD has value because you HAVE to be able to exchange dollars for food, water etc.. Bitcoin has value by the same token, in that you can exchange it for food, water, ie things we all agree are valuable (we need them to survive).

USD only is accepted because of force. Why would you need force? Because a dollar is nothing.

Now a Bitcoin is nothing as well but without force.

If a merchant asks you: Why should I accept bitcoin? You: I dont know its worth nothing but maybe some other guy will accept nothing for something.

If a merchant asks me: Why should I accept your dollars? Me: Because if you dont government will lock you up.

See the difference.

deisik

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Quote from: porc on December 09, 2013, 10:24:06 AM

Did you even read the thread? I have explained to you already why dollars are valuable. Fact is: you cant say why bitcoin is valuable because a bitcoin you transferred to me HAS!!! no value.

Water has value. Food has value. Nobody will discuss this. Sometimes it costs more (desert) sometimes less (rainforest). But it has VALUE!

Now Bitcoin? Its NOTHING and you know it! Thats why you are saying: Look at the dollar, it has not value too (which is incorrect).

Its like the fat boy saying: Yes I am fat but other boys are fat too, so its ok.
You say: The dollar has 0 value so it is ok that bitcoin also have 0 value.

Its not ok. And your comparison is false as dollars have value.

Calm down a little. I'm trying to explain you where the mistake you are making actually is. If you don't want to hear what I say you, then it is no use discussing it any further...

porc

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Quote from: deisik on December 09, 2013, 10:30:15 AM

You didnt explain why bitcoin is valuable! I explained to you why people want gold and dollar. You said bitcoin is rare and thus valuable. Well that is a description of its quantity not bitcoins value. If I say a deadly insect is rare do you think its valuable? Of course not.

Secondly, people would want dollar and gold because dollars and gold have importance to them as means for the achievement of their desired ends. That's what subjective value actually means...

Again abstract statements that pretend like bitcoin is in the same league as dollars and gold.

Gold is valuable because it is pretty and nice to look at. Thats why people want it.

Dollars are valuable because government forces people to accept them for payment of goods/debts.

Bitcoin is valuable because???

Say why you think Bitcoin has value!!

deed02392

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Quote from: porc

Stop diverting. What is bitcoins value? You know it has 0 value but dont want to admit it, as you want to dump it on the next guy.

Water has value. Food has value. Nobody will discuss this. Sometimes it costs more (desert) sometimes less (rainforest). But it has VALUE!

You explain that USD has value because you HAVE to be able to exchange dollars for food, water etc.. Bitcoin has value by the same token, in that you can exchange it for food, water, ie things we all agree are valuable (we need them to survive).

Now, a government COULD say it's illegal to trade with Bitcoins, but people could still trade it for food and water etc if they really wanted to. And that's presuming a country declares it illegal which I think a lot of people believe is unlikely.

deisik

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Quote from: deed02392 on December 09, 2013, 10:27:44 AM

You didnt explain why bitcoin is valuable! I explained to you why people want gold and dollar. You said bitcoin is rare and thus valuable. Well that is a description of its quantity not bitcoins value. If I say a deadly insect is rare do you think its valuable? Of course not.

First of all, you're confusing me with someone else, because I never said that bitcoin is rare and thus would be valuable. Secondly, people would want dollar and gold because dollars and gold have importance to them as means for the achievement of their desired ends. That's what subjective value actually means...

porc

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Quote from: deisik on December 09, 2013, 10:11:34 AM

Quote from: deisik on December 09, 2013, 09:56:54 AM

If Bitcoin has no value for you (as you said earlier), it doesn't mean the same for other people. I have already tried to explain you this, but you just said it was irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you, but you simply can't just as easily dismiss the opinion of all those people who think otherwise. The world doesn't start at you, nor does it end at you...

I am glad that nothing (thing of no value) is rare. If it would be plentiful it might waste space (something). Now at the moment people pay something for nothing because they think tomorrow the nothing will be worth more something.

Now some say: I can transfer nothing cheaply. Well incurring something (cost) for sending nothing is a waste not a benefit.

Stop talking bullshit really. If you don't value something (thing of no value in your terms), it doesn't mean that everyone is of the same opinion. Is this really so hard to understand? It is the subjective value that ultimately matters here...

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

You didnt explain why bitcoin is valuable! I explained to you why people want gold and dollar. You said bitcoin is rare and thus valuable. Well that is a description of its quantity not bitcoins value. If I say a deadly insect is rare do you think its valuable? Of course not.

Valuable means you can assign a value to it. If there are only 100 of these insects, I expect a museum might pay you for one, yes.

Stop diverting. What is bitcoins value? You know it has 0 value but dont want to admit it, as you want to dump it on the next guy.

deed02392

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Quote from: deisik on December 09, 2013, 10:11:34 AM

Quote from: deisik on December 09, 2013, 09:56:54 AM

If Bitcoin has no value for you (as you said earlier), it doesn't mean the same for other people. I have already tried to explain you this, but you just said it was irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you, but you simply can't just as easily dismiss the opinion of all those people who think otherwise. The world doesn't start at you, nor does it end at you...

I am glad that nothing (thing of no value) is rare. If it would be plentiful it might waste space (something). Now at the moment people pay something for nothing because they think tomorrow the nothing will be worth more something.

Now some say: I can transfer nothing cheaply. Well incurring something (cost) for sending nothing is a waste not a benefit.

Stop talking bullshit really. If you don't value something (thing of no value in your terms), it doesn't mean that everyone is of the same opinion. Is this really so hard to understand? It is the subjective value that ultimately matters here...

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

You didnt explain why bitcoin is valuable! I explained to you why people want gold and dollar. You said bitcoin is rare and thus valuable. Well that is a description of its quantity not bitcoins value. If I say a deadly insect is rare do you think its valuable? Of course not.

Valuable means you can assign a value to it. If there are only 100 of these insects, I expect a museum might pay you for one, yes.

porc

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Quote from: deisik on December 09, 2013, 10:22:53 AM

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

Dollars in your bank account. i.e electronic money existing only as records in some obscure database, are nothing and thing of no value according to your logic, right? If so, could you please transfer all these things of no value to my bank account?

Did you even read the thread? I have explained to you already why dollars are valuable. Fact is: you cant say why bitcoin is valuable because a bitcoin you transferred to me HAS!!! no value.

Water has value. Food has value. Nobody will discuss this. Sometimes it costs more (desert) sometimes less (rainforest). But it has VALUE!

Now Bitcoin? Its NOTHING and you know it! Thats why you are saying: Look at the dollar, it has not value too (which is incorrect).

Its like the fat boy saying: Yes I am fat but other boys are fat too, so its ok.
You say: The dollar has 0 value so it is ok that bitcoin also have 0 value.

Its not ok. And your comparison is false as dollars have value.

deisik

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Quote from: deisik on December 09, 2013, 10:11:34 AM

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

Dollars in your bank account. i.e electronic money existing only as records in some obscure database, are nothing and thing of no value according to your logic, right? If so, could you please transfer all these things of no value to my bank account?

porc

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Activity: 98

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Quote from: deisik on December 09, 2013, 09:56:54 AM

If Bitcoin has no value for you (as you said earlier), it doesn't mean the same for other people. I have already tried to explain you this, but you just said it was irrelevant. It may be irrelevant to you, but you simply can't just as easily dismiss the opinion of all those people who think otherwise. The world doesn't start at you, nor does it end at you...

I am glad that nothing (thing of no value) is rare. If it would be plentiful it might waste space (something). Now at the moment people pay something for nothing because they think tomorrow the nothing will be worth more something.

Now some say: I can transfer nothing cheaply. Well incurring something (cost) for sending nothing is a waste not a benefit.

Stop talking bullshit really. If you don't value something (thing of no value in your terms), it doesn't mean that everyone is of the same opinion. Is this really so hard to understand? It is the subjective value that ultimately matters here...

Something is thing of value. Nothing is thing of no value. (my terms).

You didnt explain why bitcoin is valuable! I explained to you why people want gold and dollar. You said bitcoin is rare and thus valuable. Well that is a description of its quantity not bitcoins value. If I say a deadly insect is rare do you think its valuable? Of course not.

deisik

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Activity: 3514

Merit: 1280

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