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Topic: Why Bitcoin will collapse in price. - page 16. (Read 24607 times)

legendary
Activity: 3514
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December 07, 2013, 03:49:41 PM
#30
Reread the thread: They force us by expecting us to pay capital gains taxes on every media of exchange thats not government currency.

Why is that a problem? If bitcoin value increases compared to local fiat it's good for the merchant. They will pay capital gains which are ONLY a fraction of such gain. If they lose value or stay the same, no problem.

That guy seems to be impossible to explain this. His argument is now reduced to the assertion that Bitcoin will fail because of paperwork businesses would have to fill out for exchange rate gains. I hope somebody would come here and explain it in detail whether it actually requires that much work and how often

Personally, I don't believe him but have no experience in this field to refute with competence...
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
December 07, 2013, 03:48:05 PM
#29
Reread the thread: They force us by expecting us to pay capital gains taxes on every media of exchange thats not government currency.

Why is that a problem? If bitcoin value increases compared to local fiat it's good for the merchant. They will pay capital gains which are ONLY a fraction of such gain. If they lose value or stay the same, no problem.

Best regards,
ilpirata79

Think again: If Bitcoin should become money it has to be stable. It wont increase the entire time. Even today we have a volatile market so I cant be sure if I gain or loose.

Hint: Its about the paperwork. Thats why we dont have competition in media of exchange.
sr. member
Activity: 353
Merit: 253
December 07, 2013, 03:42:10 PM
#28
Reread the thread: They force us by expecting us to pay capital gains taxes on every media of exchange thats not government currency.

Why is that a problem? If bitcoin value increases compared to local fiat it's good for the merchant. They will pay capital gains which are ONLY a fraction of such gain. If they lose value or stay the same, no problem.

Best regards,
ilpirata79
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
December 07, 2013, 03:36:46 PM
#27


Its easy to predict that governments wont allow to be outcompeted by bitcoin. They have a money monopoly and thus will prohibit significant competition. Thats different than prohibiting alcohol as the merchant can accept dollars instead. No need to accept bitcoins. However alcohol is something you cant replace. Also alcohol is not where government derives its power from. Money is (inflation to finance its operation). It is already impossible for bitcoin to become a significant medium of exchange due to tax law.

Now regarding store of value I have explained why I think bitcoin is not suitable.


Can the government prohibit me to use, for instance, dollars to pay people (if they agree) even if I am in italy?

Would such prohibition be compatible with the italian constitution? Is there something in such constitution that states that we in Europe must use as medium of exchange only euros?

As far as I am concerned the only thing that government can force us is to accept "state" money in repayment of debts. That is because there is no alternative.

Best regards,
ilpirata79


Reread the thread: They force us by expecting us to pay capital gains taxes on every media of exchange thats not government currency.
sr. member
Activity: 353
Merit: 253
December 07, 2013, 03:35:17 PM
#26


Its easy to predict that governments wont allow to be outcompeted by bitcoin. They have a money monopoly and thus will prohibit significant competition. Thats different than prohibiting alcohol as the merchant can accept dollars instead. No need to accept bitcoins. However alcohol is something you cant replace. Also alcohol is not where government derives its power from. Money is (inflation to finance its operation). It is already impossible for bitcoin to become a significant medium of exchange due to tax law.

Now regarding store of value I have explained why I think bitcoin is not suitable.


Can the government prohibit me to use, for instance, dollars to pay people (if they agree) even if I am in italy?

Would such prohibition be compatible with the italian constitution? Is there something in such constitution that states that we in Europe must use as medium of exchange only euros?

As far as I am concerned the only thing that government can force us is to accept "state" money in repayment of debts. That is because there is no alternative.

Best regards,
ilpirata79
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
December 07, 2013, 03:12:58 PM
#25
What we would need to get around the capitol-gains tax issue is a Stable-value, High-velocity coin.  It would move from one person to the next sufficiently fast that people do not hold it for long enough to incur any gains.  

No that wont work. Any business has a significant pool of savings it does not want to spend immediatley.

Also your point about stable value is not really relevant as its mainly about the enormous paper work businesses would have to fill out. Even small gains will have to be reported.
hero member
Activity: 529
Merit: 501
December 07, 2013, 03:02:42 PM
#24
What we would need to get around the capitol-gains tax issue is a Stable-value, High-velocity coin.  It would move from one person to the next sufficiently fast that people do not hold it for long enough to incur any gains.  Freicoin aims to do this via Demurrage, which reduces nominal coins held in all wallets 5% a year.  This would increase velocity and if we could find a way to keep valuations change to less then the rate of Demurrage (so far no crypto has found out how to be stable, it is the Holy-Grail) then their would never be any capitol-gains to pay and no death-by-taxation scenario.

If we have to pay capital gains, then we should be able to claim investment losses too.

The street runs both ways.

So, if you bought BTC at $1000, and now it's $700, and you bought 5 BTC, you can claim $1500 in loses on your taxes.

Congrats !
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
December 07, 2013, 02:54:15 PM
#23
I have already replied to you see post above.

Again merchants cant use bitcoin as media of exchange because they would have to pay taxes on any gain in value of bitcoin itself which is much to cumbersome as it involves enormous paperwork. Thats why we have no competition in media of exchange. Again its one way the government makes sure only dollars are used, there are other ways as I have explained.

Could you please provide a link? Can't find your answer to my post...

You may think as you please really, but I find your argument on taxing exchange rates differences very weak. It is simply beyond my understanding how Bitcoin may fail just because of some paperwork. It may actually fail in the end, but this apparently won't be for capital gains taxes. As to me, that would be equal to saying that an enterprise would go bankrupt just for gaining some surplus profit... How come?
sr. member
Activity: 826
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December 07, 2013, 02:52:46 PM
#22
What we would need to get around the capitol-gains tax issue is a Stable-value, High-velocity coin.  It would move from one person to the next sufficiently fast that people do not hold it for long enough to incur any gains.  Freicoin aims to do this via Demurrage, which reduces nominal coins held in all wallets 5% a year.  This would increase velocity and if we could find a way to keep valuations change to less then the rate of Demurrage (so far no crypto has found out how to be stable, it is the Holy-Grail) then their would never be any capitol-gains to pay and no death-by-taxation scenario.
full member
Activity: 126
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December 07, 2013, 02:51:23 PM
#21
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
December 07, 2013, 02:48:47 PM
#20
It's good that after 4 years someone finally stepped in and explained to us why bitcoin will fail. Thank you OP!  Kiss
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
December 07, 2013, 02:37:48 PM
#19
No you have no clue how the world works. The monopoly of money is the most important power tool governments have. Wars have been fought to protect it. Again stop focusing on miners: Taxes on bitcoin are enough to kill its use as a medium of exchange.

Hey, you seem to have failed to address my point on taxation. If taxes on bitcoin you are talking about here boil down to the taxation of foreign exchange rate differences between Bitcoin and, say, dollar, this will surely not kill its use as a medium of exchange. I see no problem here and am waiting for your constructive answer..

I have already replied to you see post above.

Again merchants cant use bitcoin as media of exchange because they would have to pay taxes on any gain in value of bitcoin itself which is much to cumbersome as it involves enormous paperwork. Thats why we have no competition in media of exchange. Again its one way the government makes sure only dollars are used, there are other ways as I have explained.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
December 07, 2013, 02:35:20 PM
#18
You are just babbling and have not read the thread.


What a load of BS in the TT....

1a:
What's wrong with paying taxes and why will it kill bitcoin?
A country must get taxes to build roads and run the country. Taxes system might need an overhaul but it won't kill bitcoin.


Governments have already effectively made it impossible for people to use bitcoin as a medium of exchange, as they expect taxes to be paid on bitcoin gains. Thus it cant function as a medium of exchange (same goes for gold btw.). Unless Government loses its control on its money monopoly this law wont be altered.

I didn't get that point. If you buy something for dollars and then sell it for dollars, you still have to pay taxes. What am I missing here and what is the difference between dollars and bitcoins then?

The difference is that the "medium of exchange" is taxed.

For example: If the merchant accepts dollars and holds onto them and eventually uses them to buy new supply (i.e. sells dollars), he doesnt have to pay capital gains taxes on a possible increase in the dollars value. If the dollar trades higher versus the euro, the government does not force you to pay taxes on these exchange rate "gains".

However if the merchant accepts bitcoin and holds on them and eventually uses them to buy new supply (i.e. sells bitcoins), he will have to pay capital gains taxes.

The same is true for your average bitcoin holder. If he buys one bitcoin for 100 dollars and eventually buys products with the same bitcoin (which is now worth 500 dollars) he will have to pay capital gains taxes on the 400 dollar increase. He wont have to do this if dollars increase in value in comparison to bitcoins, euros or any other currency.

Thats why you dont have competition in medium of exchanges. Everybody using alternatives has to pay taxes on the medium of exchange! That obligation also kills any anonymity you might have btw.!


1b:
This will change once the government understands bitcoin and has new methods of getting taxes to keep countries running.
Not all countries limit the use of bitcoin so this is nonsense. I can still buy pizza here in europe with bitcoin.
Also bitcoin is volatile, maybe they are protecting their merchants and economy. If a company or bank loses 50% of their money due to the bitcoin taking a dive it can easily kill a company. Who says they're doing it to keep their money "monopoly".


No it will not change. Inflation is the most powerful way to tax. Inflation is only possible if government has control over money. Read your history.

3:
Bitcoin can only be hacked if public key cryptography is hackable. This can be done once quantum entangled quantum computers become mainstream.
If this happens every bank on the planet can be hacked with ease.
Since the greeks hundreds of years ago people have tries to solve the factorization of big numbers. No one has succeeded since so it's safe if you use it correctly.
The fun thing is that a bitcoin account, when no money has been spent from it, is even more secure. You will have to be able to find SHA-256 collisions too to find the public key.
On the other side bitcoin hasn't been hacked but nearly all banks in the world have.
And we can easily modify virtual currencies to withstand quantum computers. Look at Quark-coin.

Not very convincing for the average joe who wants to either store wealth in gold or bitcoins. Again you say it cant be hacked but you overestimate your own intelligence.

Also address theses points for the average joe: 1) What if my money is outcompeted by a different altcoin? 2) What can I do with Bitcoin except dumping it on the next guy? Silver I like, I can touch it, its used in industry, it looks great. 3) I cant be sure that the limit cant be broken. I have no trust. 5) I rather choose something stable thats not a technology to store wealth over long periods of time.

See you arrogantly assume bitcoin is the best way without ever considering that there are safer alternatives.

legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1265
December 07, 2013, 02:29:20 PM
#17
Most govenments have banned hard-drugs .... look at the price Tongue
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
December 07, 2013, 02:26:32 PM
#16
No you have no clue how the world works. The monopoly of money is the most important power tool governments have. Wars have been fought to protect it. Again stop focusing on miners: Taxes on bitcoin are enough to kill its use as a medium of exchange.

Hey, you seem to have failed to address my point on taxation. If taxes on bitcoin you are talking about here boil down to the taxation of foreign exchange rate differences between Bitcoin and, say, dollar, this will surely not kill its use as a medium of exchange. I see no problem here and am waiting for your constructive answer..
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1265
December 07, 2013, 02:20:12 PM
#15
What a load of BS in the TT....

1a:
What's wrong with paying taxes and why will it kill bitcoin?
A country must get taxes to build roads and run the country. Taxes system might need an overhaul but it won't kill bitcoin.

1b:
This will change once the government understands bitcoin and has new methods of getting taxes to keep countries running.
Not all countries limit the use of bitcoin so this is nonsense. I can still buy pizza here in europe with bitcoin.
Also bitcoin is volatile, maybe they are protecting their merchants and economy. If a company or bank loses 50% of their money due to the bitcoin taking a dive it can easily kill a company. Who says they're doing it to keep their money "monopoly".

2:
Is 1b in different words.

3:
Bitcoin can only be hacked if public key cryptography is hackable. This can be done once quantum entangled quantum computers become mainstream.
If this happens every bank on the planet can be hacked with ease.
Since the greeks hundreds of years ago people have tries to solve the factorization of big numbers. No one has succeeded since so it's safe if you use it correctly.
The fun thing is that a bitcoin account, when no money has been spent from it, is even more secure. You will have to be able to find SHA-256 collisions too to find the public key.
On the other side bitcoin hasn't been hacked but nearly all banks in the world have.
And we can easily modify virtual currencies to withstand quantum computers. Look at Quark-coin.

hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
December 07, 2013, 02:17:01 PM
#14


Conclusion:

If I am wrong about these points government will come down hard on miners. They could make it illegal to mine bitcoins. Then bitcoin will lose all of its advantages compared to alternative cryptocurrencies. It will be a code like the rest of them.

I predict bitcoin to collapse in price.

EDIT: The price increasing shows bitcoin is used as a speculative vehicle. It does not demonstrate bitcoins viability as a store of value or medium of exchange.

How can you make it illegal to mine?

Governments can pass laws that make it illegal to mine bitcoins. Simple. They can raide miners houses if need be. They can threaten you with death penalities if you mine despite it being prohibited. Again its just another line of attack that is unnecessary as you already have two major lines of attack (with one already being law, ie capital gains) to make sure it wont become a major medium of exchange as I discussed in the OP.

You have no clue how this works , do you?
Do you think that a government imposing the death penalty for mining will last more than 1 week ?

No you have no clue how the world works. The monopoly of money is the most important power tool governments have. Wars have been fought to protect it. Again stop focusing on miners: Taxes on bitcoin are enough to kill its use as a medium of exchange.

Then why did you mentioned it? Just to make you post look smarter?
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
December 07, 2013, 02:11:55 PM
#13


Conclusion:

If I am wrong about these points government will come down hard on miners. They could make it illegal to mine bitcoins. Then bitcoin will lose all of its advantages compared to alternative cryptocurrencies. It will be a code like the rest of them.

I predict bitcoin to collapse in price.

EDIT: The price increasing shows bitcoin is used as a speculative vehicle. It does not demonstrate bitcoins viability as a store of value or medium of exchange.

How can you make it illegal to mine?

Governments can pass laws that make it illegal to mine bitcoins. Simple. They can raide miners houses if need be. They can threaten you with death penalities if you mine despite it being prohibited. Again its just another line of attack that is unnecessary as you already have two major lines of attack (with one already being law, ie capital gains) to make sure it wont become a major medium of exchange as I discussed in the OP.

You have no clue how this works , do you?
Do you think that a government imposing the death penalty for mining will last more than 1 week ?

No you have no clue how the world works. The monopoly of money is the most important power tool governments have. Wars have been fought to protect it. Again stop focusing on miners: Taxes on bitcoin are enough to kill its use as a medium of exchange.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
December 07, 2013, 02:06:23 PM
#12


Conclusion:

If I am wrong about these points government will come down hard on miners. They could make it illegal to mine bitcoins. Then bitcoin will lose all of its advantages compared to alternative cryptocurrencies. It will be a code like the rest of them.

I predict bitcoin to collapse in price.

EDIT: The price increasing shows bitcoin is used as a speculative vehicle. It does not demonstrate bitcoins viability as a store of value or medium of exchange.

How can you make it illegal to mine?

Governments can pass laws that make it illegal to mine bitcoins. Simple. They can raide miners houses if need be. They can threaten you with death penalities if you mine despite it being prohibited. Again its just another line of attack that is unnecessary as you already have two major lines of attack (with one already being law, ie capital gains) to make sure it wont become a major medium of exchange as I discussed in the OP.

You have no clue how this works , do you?
Do you think that a government imposing the death penalty for mining will last more than 1 week ?
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
December 07, 2013, 02:04:09 PM
#11
The difference is that the "medium of exchange" is taxed.

For example: If the merchant accepts dollars and holds onto them and eventually uses them to buy new supply (i.e. sells dollars), he doesnt have to pay capital gains taxes on a possible increase in the dollars value. If the dollar trades higher versus the euro, the government does not force you to pay taxes on these exchange rate "gains".

However if the merchant accepts bitcoin and holds on them and eventually uses them to buy new supply (i.e. sells bitcoins), he will have to pay capital gains taxes.

Now I see your point, but I don't think it would be serious obstacle really, if any. You will pay only if the exchange rate has increased, i.e. the exchange rate difference would only be taxed, right? If the exchange rate doesn't change, there is no additional taxation as I understand it...
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