Topic: Why do people hate islam? - page 84. (Read 221075 times)

That is your point of view that there is no need of revolution in Iran Right ?? But let me tell you that there is v. need of revolution in Iran because all the things that happened in Iran before Imam Khomeni was all against Islam. Gambling,Adultery,Alcohol etc all are become a norm of the day.
Isn't ?? You didn't read the history of Iran Before Imam Khomeni ??

O my dear !! I told you that they are muslims and the one who fought for muslims or Islam is a true muslim. And i dnt know who was cat steven so i didn't give you any comment on that.. Who said you muslims hate christian. I have a christian friends and i love them.

And We have not sent you but as a mercy to all the worlds." (Quran 21:107)

This verse express that MUhammad (PBUH) is mercy for all humanity.

Beware!  Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment." (Abu Dawud)

Are you satisfy..??

Question of Attitude, Zakir.  You see, I never liked Cat Stevens or his music, but if he says he is a muslim, he a muslim.  Makes no difference what some voice on the Internet opinionates about.  No difference whatsoever.  Makes no difference what moldy old verses from some book you come up with.

All such things are is a public display of authoritarian controller mentality, which is of course a great evil, although it is permitted and even encouraged by various cultures and religions, and is most likely part of human nature.

RE ISIS if you or other Muslims have to go check the old verses to figure out if they are good or bad, that's a statement of the problem, not the solution. 

Try just thinking for yourself.

No offense taken I'm not religious anymore, not for a long time.

I need to read up a bit more before commenting on the rest, lest I sound a fool. Bear in mind talking to me, I always attempt to be fair. Not unbiased, as I am not. But fair. If something could be construed as an attack or a question, read it as a question. I'm just seeking knowledge and discourse. I have nothing personal against Islam. I judge people by their actions more than what they claim to believe.

@Biomech: I didn't meantion Yusef Islam is a Muslim nor did I mention he is a non-Muslim. I want to check about him before concluding it.

The other two people, from what I have read from medias(truths+lies), they have done more harm than good. Prophet has said that wise men won't do things which won't give positive results, So it was better for them to ignore it though I still don't know what their 'real' intention was.

About Islamic stance on Christians and Jews: In Qur'an, it is is mentioned that they are the closest of all religions. Neither Qur'an nor does Islam hates Christians or Jews or any other person. FYI -- Christians and Jews who believe in 'real' Christianity and Jewish religions can go to paradise according to Qur'an but I have not been able to find anyone who does so. All persons I have seen/heard believe in new (edited) books -- no offence.

Remember that, Islam does not distinguish people in this world. All are equal here but in afterlife(you may not believe in this), they will be distinguished by their deeds.

@Spendulus: I don't think ISIS is even following minor Islamic laws but I will have to check country's laws to tell it. Only thing that makes ISIS part of Islam is their claims.

Actually, there is only one Islam. The laws don't change. However, there can be soft-forks*!but not hard-forks* in Islam. For example, postmortem is not allowed in Islam but as India have certain rules regarding it, we can follow it. For music there are exceptions but they are definitely not related to places people live.

When BADecker was around, I indeed used "Islamaphobi(a/c)" but nowadays, the discussion seems fair and not filled with what it used to be.

By the way, Spendulus, you didn't give me a source for a news I asked. Thought I should remind you.

* In Bitcoin language. See my post -- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.11763796 for links about soft-fork.

---

I hope I have mentioned what I need to mention. Sorry if I missed anything and if I did, please point it out. Thank you!

My answer would be that the so-called government of the United States is composed almost entirely of traitors, by their own laws... but I do see your point

As to the rest, of course I tend to agree. Though I think it might go even deeper than outside oppression. As a former Christian, I can attest personally to how HARD it is to let go of an idea that you have embraced uncritically and had reinforced for your whole life. It was one of the more terrible times in my life. I believe I am a better human for having undergone that admittedly awful time, but that doesn't take away from how truly hard it can be to face the fact that you have believed an untruth. It causes you to question absolutely everything you hold to be true. Which is a good thing in itself, but a hard one for an adult. I am trying to teach my children to do that at a young age, so they never have to face such a conundrum. Whether I'll be successful? Who knows.

I think there was zero tactical or military reason for the Iran hostage situation.  Zero.  They'd already taken the country.

Biomech I am seeing a reluctance to answers to our questions and when that happens there is always good reason.   Obviously someone living in an Islamic controlled area would stay quiet on many matters because of possible retaliation.  So maybe we ask things that cannot be answered, yet this illustrates and cements the "problem with Islam."

At the same time, note they are unified in opposition to ISIS.    Of course, that might instantly vanish when or if ISIS takes over their particular area.  Seems were are all in agreement on opposition to ISIS, and we are all in agreement that "ISIS is not ISLAM", although we are in disagreement over whether it represents a part of Islam, or as Zakir asserts, is not Islam at all.

Obviously, Cat Stevens is Muslim.  It may be that he represents a more secular and Western variety of Islam than those here who speak from rather pure fundamentalist cultures.   Of course from the point of view of debate and argumentation I could say of you....

From the secular side, the miserable sons of bitches we cringingly call our government here in the United States

"Oh, if you talk like that...You'r No American!"

But that would be a tactic, with a goal other than actually discovering the truth of matters.  I use it to illustrate a problem, rather than to criticize.  Similarly, a tactic we've seen here by Zakir and others ( although I think he changed his tune on this...) is/was ...

"Oh, your obviously Islamophobic!"

Ok, so we now have a yes on Khomeini, a yes and a no on Yusef Islam (Cat Stevens), and a yes on Arafat.

Interesting, as those are the three who I thought had done right or tried to do right by their religion and their people.

@Greg, two things. One, On the part of the list I made, I, personaly, had put forth no judgement or commentary as to whether or not they were "good" people. I simply asked if you considered them true muslims. As to why Cat Stevens is important, he is, in the west, a very well known man who has been an advocate for world peace for his entire life. Long before his conversion to Islam and taking on the name Yusef Islam. Mr. Zakir states that he is muslim, you state that singing is forbidden, thus he is not.

I agree with you that Khomeini had little choice but to declare war. I think his taking the embassy people hostage was the only thing he did truly wrong in that whole episode, as they had not done anything to him. But in  a war, mistakes are made very often. I would say the same of Yasser Arafat. Both men made the attempt to free their people from oppression. While I think their strategy in both cases was idiotic, I have little moral problem with it. Had the people of Iran sat down and simply refused to obey the edicts from above, the whole world would have seen in a matter of days just exactly what sort of ass the Shah was. Had the people of Palestine sat down and refused to obey the edicts of the Knesset, again, the result would have been that. Instead, both sides chose to fight a dirty war against their enemies, and actually harmed their cause. Easy to see this in retrospect, not so easy at the tip of the lance. Strategically, Terrorism rarely works in the long term as it fosters paranoia on both sides. The two men mentioned above are a lot of why the West fears and hates Islam. Exactly the opposite of what they were trying to achieve. Do you see now, why I asked?

From the secular side, the miserable sons of bitches we cringingly call our government here in the United States have put their ugly noses where they don't belong for more than a century, making this situation far worse than it needs to be. Muslims in the west, by and large, are no better or worse than their Christian, Jewish, or even atheist neighbors. Because they and we are not in a daily struggle for our lives. This makes a HUGE difference in behaviours and motivations, and it's hard to step back from that. Times of relative peace and free trade bring out the best in most groups, but do not empower governments. Government and Religion have been each other's handmaidens for pretty much all of recorded history, so that the one supports the other is not in any manner surprising. It is and always will be in the best interests of central governments and organized religions to have an active, angry enemy. When such does not exist, both major groups will work hard to make one.

Individuals and individual belief, then, are never well served by centralized organizations that purport to have power over them. I state that unequivocally. Even when such central authorities do some good, it is less than the harm they do. Be they secular or religious. All such things tend to divide one man against another, magnifying differences that the men acting on their own likely would reconcile.

I would turn the question around, now, as I believe it has been adequately covered why so many hate islam. Since I don't, I can be fairly objective. I dislike Islam less than I dislike Christianity, and on about the same level as all other religions that I can think of. So... Why do Muslims hate Christians? Why do Muslims hate Jews? (both are overbroad, but too often true).

Khomeni did right !! Have you ever know what is the condition of Iran before Khomeni. Adultery, Alcohol, Gambling become a norm of the day. This is all against Islam and in my opinion Khomeni did right and if muslim land is no safe then Muslims have option of jihad.

All good comments, but we are still not approaching clarification of the question...

Is ISIS muslim?
Was Sayyid Qutb muslim?
Is the Muslim Brotherhood muslim?
Is Hamas Muslim?
Was Khadaffi a muslim?
Was Khomeini a muslim?
Is Cat Stevens/Yusef Islam a muslim?
Was Yasser Arafat a muslim?
Are the members of the House of Saud Muslims? (and if not, why are they charged with the protection of Mecca and Medina?)

Would you then be saying the True Muslims should act like Khadaffi, Khomeini, and Arafat but not ISIS?


I agree with you regarding what is "Not lying."  But still, if someone claims their religion dictates the very minutae of their personal behavior and life but cannot  or will not answer the above simple question, this is problematic.  It creates the impression literally of their inability to state what is and is not a muslim in practical real world terms.  This casts severe doubt on their claim that "Koran is perfect," "Islam is a religion of peace" and others.

Still, even when acknowledging a search for internal consistency and clarity in Islam is futile, a reluctance from the resident Muslim community to answer this question is unacceptable.

Cat Stevens was a well known Musician so what can i do..??
What is the purpose of his name here in this thread

A better Muslim is,  who obeys Quran as well as Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Quran says if your land is no safe from non muslims then fight against non muslims that is called JIHAD.

A peaceful muslim follow both Quran and Sunnah and they only fight for Islam if there is fight needed and their is no option except war.

ISIS members are not muslims. They said we are Muslims hten dont believe because Islam against this type of so called Jihad.

Kindly read what Islam is about..

My thoughts have actually long gone down this path. I believe that some people are just going to be violent assholes. call it a defect, whatever. But certain polities, whether religious or otherwise, give them sanction, or at least appear to, and that exacerbates the problem.

Another problem endemic to relgion is the inconsistency of the holy writ. When a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim say that they believe in a religion of peace, the odds are very high that they are not lying. When A Christian or a Jew or a Muslim say that their scriptures call for the death of unbelievers, they STILL aren't lying. It's when they say one and deny the other that they are lying. Because according to their scriptures, both are true. Orwell shined a bright light on doublethink, he didn't invent the concept.

The Q'uran, in my limited reading of it, seems more internally consistent than either the Christian Bible or the Talmud, but not by a lot. I again maintain that the vast majority of religious people are good people, in spite of their religion. It's hard to trust people who are able to hold contradictory views as if they weren't, but I don't trust easily anyway. But the observable truth is that MOST religious people are not evil, even when at times their religion calls upon them to be. In a way I envy them. the fairy tales are comforting. But for me, the contradictions and doublethink proved impossible.

Wait what? euh Islam doesn't allow killing, the only exception is self defense and death penalty by "Taer".

Maybe you don't know but the people that ISIS kills everyday are 99% Muslims.

A lot of ISIS recruits are not remotely muslims heck some of these Psychopaths don't even speak a work of arabic, but they come for the huge salaries (thousands of $ each months) and the free killing card

That's actually very perceptive.  But maybe the Islamics think the same of us?  "Hey, look at all those Western kooks!  Look at the American kooks?"

I do not doubt that....

It's a question that could be explored in interesting ways, for example.  Who has more druggie and alcohol kooks?  Who has fanatical soccer fan kooks?  Which religion or culture has more bad driver kooks?

LOL...

I think for this thread, Peace Train would be more appropriate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_X9eqYa6CQ

I don't know if it has to do with the religion or culture,  also there are many more islamic kooks out there than christian though there are plenty of those, jewish, buddhist or whatever kooks. i don't know if it has to do with the religion or culture, but it's just true.

Well known musician, he has been around since the 1970s...

Here is one of his well known works..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0TInLOJuUM

Come on and put your thinking cap on. Who is a greater Muslim? The one who obeys only part of the Quran? Or one who obeys all of it?

The Quran dictates violence at times and peace at other times. Most of the violence is dictated against those who are not Muslim, or those who turn away from Islam. Most of the peace is dictated towards the Muslim brotherhood.

Now you tell me. Are peaceful Muslims following the Quran if they do no violence against non-Muslims? Maybe, somewhat. But they aren't the strong Muslims.

ISIS members are the strong Muslims because they do the violence directives found in the Quran, against non-Muslims, and against Muslims who fall away from the Islamic faith by not obeying the words of the Quran. They also uphold peace towards fellow, faithful Muslims, as well as towards those non-Muslims who are likely to convert to Islam.

It's you peaceful Muslims who are not truly Muslims. Or if you are, you are just barely so. Even if some great and popular Muslim holy people and leaders do not pick up the violence directives ordered in the Quran, they are weak Muslims.

Wake up about your religion.

Qadafi
Gaddafi was a devout Muslim with his own take on Islam.
Ayatullah Khomeni
Political and Religious Leader

When Ha'iri died in the 1930s, the Ayatollah Boroujerdi succeeded him as the most important Islamic figure in Qom. As a result, Boroujerdi gained Khomeini as a follower. It is interesting to note that both Ha'iri and Boroujerdi believed that religion should not involve itself with government affairs. So, while the leader of Iran, Reza Shah, weakened the powers of religious leaders and promoted a more secularized country, the most powerful religious figures in Iran remained silent and encouraged their followers to do the same.

Moreover, the same deference was encouraged when Reza Shah's son, Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, turned to the U.S. for help quelling protests for democratic reforms in Iran's capital, Tehran, in the 1950s. One of those who were muted by the beliefs of the senior religious leaders was Khomeini.

Unable to speak out against what he saw as a country leaving its Islamic roots and values behind, Khomeini turned his efforts toward teaching. He began to cultivate a group of dedicated pupils who became his staunchest supporters during his days as an Islamic revolutionary. On March 31, 1961, Ayatollah Boroujerdi died and Khomeini was in a position to take up the mantle left by the late religious leader. After publishing his writings on Islamic science and doctrines, many Shi'ite Iranians began to see Khomeini as Marja-e Taqlid (a person to be imitated).

In 1962, Khomeini began protesting the intentions of the Shah in earnest. His first act of defiance was to organize the ulama (religious leaders) against a proposed law of the Shah's that would effectively end the requirement for elected officials to be sworn in on the Qu'ran. This action was just the beginning in a long string of events that would change Iranian politics forever.

In June 1963, Khomeini made a speech suggesting that if the Shah did not change the political direction of Iran, the populace would be happy to see him leave the country. As a result, Khomeini was arrested and held in prison. During his incarceration, people took to the streets with cries for his release, and were met by the government with military force. Even so, it was nearly a week before the unrest was resolved. Khomeini was held in prison until April 1964, when he was allowed to return to Qom.

The Shah continued to cultivate close ties with the United States, and to be what Khomeini considered "soft" on Israel. This prompted Khomeini to pronounce his belief that Jews would take over Iran and that the U.S. considered all Iranians to be little more than slaves to America's Western ideals. After delivering another inflammatory speech in the fall of 1964, Khomeini was arrested and deported to Turkey. Prevented by Turkish law from wearing the traditional clothes of a Shi'ite cleric and scholar, Khomeini took up residence in Najaf, Iraq in September 1965. He remained there for 13 years.