Topic: Will energy consumption be Bitcoins downfall ? - page 8. (Read 1698 times)

Yep,

but bitcoiners don't want to hear that.
Bitcoiners want to hear that bitcoin energy waste is divine, and that bitcoin should get 1st access to the energy grid,
even if poor people freeze due to increased energy prices or people get sick from air pollution from burning excessive amounts of coal.

Bitcoiners are going to make every excuse in the book, look at everyone else they use more power than BTC, they cause more pollution than BTC. Bitcoiners problem is this , those other industries are regulated already, and those other industries are distributed enough that their drain on the energy grids are manageable.

What bitcoin miners do is within a short time frame increase the strain on an energy grid almost to point of a new small country moving in, but instead of decades so the energy producers have time to ratchet up production, they increase the strain within 2-3 years.

Bitcoin PoW mining is completely unsustainable in it's current growth pattern.
But bitcoiners don't want to hear that.

So here is the question for Bitcoiners,
Since Bitcoiners refuse a switch to PoS, what are the plans, when the majority of civilized countries ban all bitcoin mining?
Do Bitcoiners have a hidden island where they can power all Bitcoin PoW mining with a volcano?
Are Bitcoiners hiding a new fusion device for free unlimited energy?

My guess is they don't have an answer for that either, just it won't happen because bitcoin is great.

IMO, What I see happening is that at some point most countries ban bitcoin due to concerns over it carbon footprint and energy waste.
At some point only poor countries running unstable energy grids will allow bitcoin miners, and then the bitcoin network itself becomes extremely unreliable, and this translates into a spiraling price decrease verses fiat, then even the most ardent bitcoiners, will begin to question why don't we move to PoS, I mean look at the PoS coins Cardano & Ethereum, which are now #1 & #2 on the Coin Market cap it worked great for them.

That is timeline, I see playing out, how long it takes to reach it depends on how fast the banning btc increases and how soon the major investors recognize PoS is the future and PoW is a failed tech.

But as I said , Bitcoiners don't want to hear any of that.  

The problem of energy consumption will not make Bitcoin downfall, because the trust in Bitcoin is already very strong. Even if ecofriendly alts appear,
it is still impossible to make Bitcoin replaceable. Because Bitcoin is too strong, many altcoins created to replace Bitcoin have failed. I think at least for
the next 5-10 years Bitcoin is still the best and will not be replaced by any coins. So now it is very safe to choose Bitcoin as a long-term investment.

yet even if some will turn to Eco friendly coins yet the assurance of their funds will always be for Bitcoin so in chances that alt to be the main won't happen at any cost.

Downfall will never come for Bitcoin , that will never happen in the next 5-10 years.

yes I understand all that and appreciate the replies, I am not a novice btw I have been buying, trading and investing in BTC and Alts for years.  I just think the new money coming into the cryptocurrency world will be heavier to the Alts than the past and of that more going to greener currencies.  Could be 100% wrong but that's what I am thinking moving forward as an investor.

Consider this...

The amount of energy that is used Globally for bitcoin mining is DIRECTLY proportional to the product of the average exchange rate of bitcoins multiplied by the current block reward.

If the exchange rate goes up, the miners have more money per block mined to pay for more electricity.  If the block reward goes up, the miners have more money per block mined to pay for more electricity.  If the block reward goes down, the miners have less money per block mined to pay for electricity. If the exchange rate goes down, the miners have less money per block mined to pay for electricity.

Furthermore, approximately every 4 years, the block subsidy is cut in half.  It is currently 6.25 BTC per block, but in a few short years, it will be only 3.125 BTC per block and 4 years after that, it will be 1.5625 BTC per block.

If nothing else changes (the exchange rate stays pretty much the same, and the transaction fees per block stay pretty much the same, and the cost of electricity per kWh stays pretty much the same, and the ASIC efficiency stays pretty much the same), then we should see the amount of energy used for mining cut in half in a few years, and cut in half again 4 years after that.  So, by design, Bitcoin WILL become more efficient over time.

Now, if the exchange rate increases, the energy usage will increase proportionally, but from what you're saying that isn't a concern.

So Bitcoin is going back down to $10k because of the increasing energy usage? That doesn't make sense at all. If anything, the increasing hashrate actually means that there's actual demand. And yet it will crash back down to $10k because of it?

Might as well use PayPal tbh.

right ! Some not all, when they have a choice of BTC or NANO etc will use the more greenwise coin. They are out there, just like the Apple followers that wont touch a damn Android if it half the price lol. If we would just go to Thorium based reactors (SMR's) to power 75% of the grid we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Coal fired plants have the highest mortality rate to Kilowatt output than all other power producers combined. Nuclear and Hydro have the lowest by far.

Yeh those regulations have a chunk of my money tide up in a Japan Liquid account. I most likely will never see again unless the regulations change again.

great comments from you all, let my try to answer some... On the WW use of power its not a an engineering banter on the dynamics of BTC power consumption. Its about what the investor will buy.

This whole conversation is about demand. I want to see BTC become much more stable myself but at this time we see how vulnerable all crypto's are to comments and social media running with fear and or hype. When I say I think its topped out at $60k IMO it has unless something changes in the crypto world that causes a huge demand just in BTC.  Like I say I watch BTC market cap closely ( its share of all crypto value). ETH recently made a huge jump in that market share. Doge came in and showed what a shit coin can do from hype sucking up $70B.  So as money trickles back into crypto's and lets say we hit $3T in the coming months it will be interesting to see what % BTC has captured.       

Elon (A Shitcoin shiller) Musk is shilling with meme coin and making FUD with Bitcoin. Not that coal energy is being used in mining these days, even before he was invested in Bitcoin, fossil fuel was used for mining. I believe that Bitcoin is more Eco-Friendly than his SpaceX & Starlink.
Only new investors are the main victim of Elon's FUD, that's why panic selling is ongoing but Pro trader & hodlers are taking the opportunities to buy at deep.

I'm going to puke with all these threads discussing the fricking environmental problem that bitcoin might cause.
It's a free market, anyone can buy all the electricity available to do whatever they think it's best. The real problem, and we know it, is that the whole world still runs on fossils.
In a million years the Sun is gonna die and it's gonna kill us all anyway.

No more so than electricity consumption has been the downfall of banks, investment banks, gold mines, and any other financial system.

Imagine how much electricity is used in all of the banks globally? Even if we simply account for clearing and settlement. Bitcoin bypasses so many arcane processes. In an apples-to-apples comparison, I'm certain Bitcoin beats the banks by many a KWh!

I remember reading the other day that the Visa/Mastercard type payment networks collectively use only 20% of the energy consumption by Bitcoin. They are also engaged in exponentially more transactions every day - tens of millions. The fees associated with Bitcoin tend to cost more than comparative credit/debit card networks and ironically the time that people want to liquidate holdings (a stampede to the exit) can take a hefty chunk from a small scale "investor" due to fluctuating costs. At that point, the main positive working for bitcoin is the anonymity factor - which is slowly being diminished as retail or institutional investors gravitate towards fewer exchanges. Governments only like a certain amount of anonymity when it comes to the money supply, because too much can be abused by criminal actors, so this might lead to future regulatory crackdowns. It's getting harder to paint a hopeful future for Bitcoin, but as you say - others might be able to at least be more "green".

Glad to hear it.  Then tell me please, what is the total worldwide energy expenditure right now behind the worlds leading alternative system (U.S. Dollars)?
Please include ALL energy that would stop being used if the Dollar (or other fiat currencies) didn't exist. Include the minting of the physical currency, the securing and transporting of that physical currency, the secret service effort to prevent counterfeiting and fraud, the banking system, vaults, branches, ATMs, tellers, all the fuel spent on all the vehicles by all the employees getting to and from work, all the databases and computers for storing balances all over the world, the networks needed for inter-bank transfers, the consumer level electronic payment systems, card readers, routers, security systems, etc.  While you're at it, please consider the amount of energy the U.S. military uses in its efforts to make sure that its currency keeps its status as the reserve currency of the world.

Once you've calculated all that, come back and compare it for me to the costs of Bitcoin's network.


Bitcoin mining is driven by profits.  If you want mining to use more eco-friendly sources of energy, make them cheaper.  As eco friendly electricity becomes cheaper, bitcoin mining will automatically switch over to more eco-friendly sources.


Heard this at $1, $10, $100, $1000, and now $10,000.  Picking an arbitrary number close to the current number on any given day and saying it "topped out" at that number is just silly.  $10,000 is no more of a magic number than $1000 or $100,000.

Furthermore, let's imagine for a moment that you are correct. That would be a GOOD thing.  Once price discovery ends, volatility dies down, and the exchange rate
stabilizes, it will be MUCH easier for merchants to price things in bitcoins and for consumers to understand what that price means in terms of value.  An eventual stabilized exchange rate that adjusts over time due mostly to deflation is the end goal.


Nothing to get over.  I'd be thrilled that the price stabilized and Bitcoin's volatility stops being a common complaint.  It doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin mining can not and will not be changed away from Proof of Work.

ADA, Bitgreen BITG, XCH, Nano and XLM. Its not that these coins don't use power its the amount they use that's attractive to some and may become a factor for investors.

Elon just mentioned something I had been talking about a couple years now so its always been in the back of my mind. He just gets a lot of reaction lol

I am not a BTC hater, I am an investor.  I road the train from $380 and love bitcoin.  Now it has its competition, I watch the crypto market cap a lot. I believe it peaked at $2.7T just a few weeks back with BTC in control of 1.2T or better.  Currently at this writing the total market cap is $2.06 T with BTC holding $800B of that, ETH $373B. So $640B has left the crypto market. I can easily see a $3T market as money comes back in this year but how much is going to be going into the likes of ADA now that Elon caused a mini panic.

Its all speculative and as Ive always told investors it doesn't matter if its true or not, what matters is how people react to it.

Please name such "green" alternatives? What coin is mined out of thin air? In my opinion, this is the opinion that the mining of cryptocurrency can become "environmentally" clean, just a gimmick like the whole topic of "green energy". Since in the global energy generation "green technologies" occupy a negligible percentage - so it is the same with the mining of bitcoins and alternative coins. This is a utopia which in the near future is not destined to come true in reality.

Downfall? Can someone please remind me how many times Bitcoin died so far because of various fud and bad news?
We should not blindly listen and trust mainstream media and clowns like Elon Musk who is probably spending more energy on his posts and space rockets than all Bitcoin network.

Bitcoin will never convert to PoS model and if some crazy minority decides to fork off it will end up like all other Bitcoin forks that tried to do something similar.
Proof-of-stake has many flaws, there is no real decentralization with vps servers and imagine telling people to buy Bitcoin if you want to run a node with current prices or higher.
What could happen in future is that someone invents new eco friendly algorithm that is not PoS or PoW but something totally new that keeps security and decentralization.
I am sure we are going to see more Bitcoin changes in future and I would like to see improved privacy more than changing of PoW model.

You must be Nostradamus or some prophet if you know exact price movement, and Bitcoin may go down to $10k at some point but it can also go to $100K when this fud settles.
Check out stock-to-flow model and zoom out.

First you are wrong, energy is my business. Some BTC is mined from hydro power solar power etc but the vast majority comes right off the grid worldwide. That means fossil fuel plants make up the bulk of the load.

You skipped right over the question, I know BTC is POW and always has been. What I can tell you is its topped out now unless the POW evolves into less energy demand I see it going back to $10k... so you may just have to get over that. 

no because the bitcoin's energy consumption is greatly exaggerated to the point that it is starting to look ridiculous. also when you compare the energy consumption that bitcoin has with anything else in the world you realize that it is really tiny in comparison.

these days i'm posting this video everywhere:
Bitcoin energy consumption by Andereas Antanopolos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvFqEofdAZ0

The fact that both stocks (Tesla and Squre) are down since they announced their BTC investment means their sudden concerns responsibility towards the environment is fake. Jack knew and Elon knew. The difference is there are hundreds of billions lost, for a billion dollar investment in BTC. Both just want to save their stock price.

About your question, I already replied, PoW works like that and Bitcoin is not going to change. Each country has environment laws. If a mining farm in a third world country burns too much coal, it is probably because that country has a corrupt government accepting industries run with high pollution levels.