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Topic: Wondering where your BFL Singles are? (Read 6228 times)

legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
June 30, 2012, 11:54:48 AM
#88

******Lets end this debate now*****

I do appreciate those coming out to defend my position, however I have lost the debate due to the inability for me to provide the reasonable evidence Inaba has asked for.


2.  The ESD boogey man is alive an well in every industry.  The grey beards are just as ingrained if not more so than myself and it's an almost impossible habit to break.  That said, please provide ANY statistics to back up that CONSUMER grade products have a failure rate that has been attributed to static discharge in any capacity beyond the norm.  I can save you time: you can't.  There are no abnormal failure rates due to ESD on consumer grade products. There are a number of factors that contribute to this, including the life expectancy of consumer products that is measured in months or a scant few years, not decades.


Inaba has asked that I provide evidence in the form of reports on consumer level ESD failures. In terms of the rules of debate, that is a perfectly reasonable request.
However, it would be nearly impossible for me to provide such reports for a couple of reasons:

1.   No private business is ever going to publicly publish internal QA reports.

2.   Detecting ESD failure is expensive. Normally involves equipment on the level of an electron microscope to see. It is not cost effective for electronic assembly businesses to try and detect such failures. If an item is returned or found defective at the plant, at most technicians will identify the failed part(s) and replace them.

3.   Reports on plant QA or returns are focused on finding components that fail consistently, at which point they will take it up with the vendor. After that, it becomes a gray area of politics and economic leverage as to whether or not the vendor will spend time diagnosing the issue or just blame it on the assembly plant procedure or design of the final product. Even if the vendor does check for ESD, there is no way for john Q public to get that information unless it is volunteered, and it is not hard to see how often that would happen (never).

Sort of corporate espionage or a sufficient sample size of businesses volunteers the information, even if such information existed; I have no way of providing the requested evidence.

So in terms of this specific debate about ESD and consumer level electronics, I have to concede the debate to inaba , as I cannot provide the reasonable evidence requested for the above reasons.

This thread was about showing that singles existed and were being manufactured.

This whole argument has gotten out of control, and the thread needs to return to its original purpose.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1004
Firstbits: 1pirata
June 30, 2012, 11:18:41 AM
#87
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
June 30, 2012, 11:16:05 AM
#86
Yes, because defense contractors and medical device makers aren't mission critical.  Jesus, this thread is filled with fucking retards.


Say the retard that claims ESD = bogeyman. GTFO idiot.


Exactly what got me to post.

@Inaba: So motherboard manufacturers are just being silly protecting from ESD as well? Is my $50 budget board rated for mission critical situations, can't find that in the manual. Why would any company want to skip out on some simple to implement steps to offset a risk?

I'm not implying that someone has to roll out an ESD mat to add some RAM, but touching a grounded object before proceeding is a really good idea.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
June 30, 2012, 11:12:49 AM
#85
Yes, because defense contractors and medical device makers aren't mission critical.  Jesus, this thread is filled with fucking retards.


Say the retard that claims ESD = bogeyman. GTFO idiot.
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1002
June 30, 2012, 11:12:29 AM
#84
Yes, because defense contractors and medical device makers aren't mission critical.  Jesus, this thread is filled with fucking retards.


That's your fault. It was you who started the thread Tongue
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
June 30, 2012, 11:07:10 AM
#83
Yes, because defense contractors and medical device makers aren't mission critical.  Jesus, this thread is filled with fucking retards.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
June 30, 2012, 09:47:16 AM
#82
Oh boy, "my hardware is fine so ESD is a myth". I bet if someone told the Romans about the dangers of lead plenty of them would make "bogeyman" like mocking statements.

ESD damage most often isn't seen, isn't felt, and may not outright kill a device while still damaging it.

*No dog in the fight in relation to BFL, just annoying to see ESD mocked. Perhaps one of these people should deliver their font of wisdom to defense contractors and medical device makers.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
June 30, 2012, 01:55:50 AM
#81
fwiw, dreamwatcher is right to be concerned about ESD protocol. ESD is not a "boogeyman."
I fried my HDD 2 years ago due to ESD. 

But but..... inaba doesnt know anyone has killed a device due to ESD...

That fcktard gotta know how to use sample size.

hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
June 29, 2012, 12:04:07 PM
#80
Fried seeral mem Sticks  with esd .... (or at leasti think so cause i can Not Test for it)
legendary
Activity: 952
Merit: 1000
June 29, 2012, 11:48:28 AM
#79
I'm pretty sure I saw a video online of a HP exec demoing their hardware testing facility. They were repeatedly zapping their laptops with a 75,000V gun.

I find that very hard to believe.
I tested some hardware myself and the existing standards demand 10000 V or 12000 V, I forget which one.
10000 V *roughly* corresponds to a 10 mm long spark.
75000 V would thus correspond to about 3 inches.
That means, even light pipes of 1 inch length would be insufficient for preventing a spark from entering the circuit via a simple indicator LED.
For military equipment, maybe they test to more then 10 KV.
For consumer equipment, no way.

Ya I can't find the original article I read months ago, but this one from Giz says they test up to 15,000 V.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/05/this-man-electrocutes-laptops-for-a-living/
hero member
Activity: 1596
Merit: 566
Eloncoin.org - Mars, here we come!
June 29, 2012, 10:03:17 AM
#78
fwiw, dreamwatcher is right to be concerned about ESD protocol. ESD is not a "boogeyman."
I fried my HDD 2 years ago due to ESD. 
member
Activity: 109
Merit: 10
June 29, 2012, 08:07:59 AM
#77
Thanks a lot for the update! I am hoping my unit ships within the next weeks. Shops looks great, nothing to complain about. These kinds of updates are the ones that get me closer to buying a single SC.
donator
Activity: 162
Merit: 100
June 29, 2012, 02:49:36 AM
#76
ESD aside... having that coffee cup poised for a suicidal plunge into the murky inner world of someone's $29,000 investment doesn't really seem like a best practice. Just guessing here, but while I can channel lightning through my USB ports (cool! I learned something today...) and power my iPhone with St. Elmo's fire, having 12 ounces of slightly acidic, sticky, syrupy hot liquid suddenly meet with a circuit board, spinning fans and a non-grounded Midwestern hottie seems like a bad idea. And I'm going to get enough dog fur, dust mites and stray fasteners into the guts of my hardware without them arriving loaded up already. There are levels of "Clean" that should be at least a minimum standard, and that damn coffee cup should be in a break room.

Come on, that coffee cup is serious ASIC testing equipment! How else are they going to assure people that the Jalapeno's are capable of warming customer's coffee as advertised? I know I want to make sure BFL tests all their equipment make sure they meet their announced specs, having cold coffee would be completely unacceptable and would make me lose all faith in BFL!
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
June 29, 2012, 01:38:58 AM
#75
I'm pretty sure I saw a video online of a HP exec demoing their hardware testing facility. They were repeatedly zapping their laptops with a 75,000V gun.

I find that very hard to believe.
I tested some hardware myself and the existing standards demand 10000 V or 12000 V, I forget which one.
10000 V *roughly* corresponds to a 10 mm long spark.
75000 V would thus correspond to about 3 inches.
That means, even light pipes of 1 inch length would be insufficient for preventing a spark from entering the circuit via a simple indicator LED.
For military equipment, maybe they test to more then 10 KV.
For consumer equipment, no way.
legendary
Activity: 952
Merit: 1000
June 28, 2012, 11:32:54 PM
#74
I'm pretty sure I saw a video online of a HP exec demoing their hardware testing facility. They were repeatedly zapping their laptops with a 75,000V gun.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
June 28, 2012, 11:12:32 PM
#73
So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

So when I take every single GPU I get apart and replace the thermal paste (in a carpeted room, on a wooden desk, with no protection), they should all be fried by now? Now I am somewhat cautious: I try not to place them ON the carpet, and I tend to touch my computer case when I"m about to pick the GPU up, but still...

Side note, I have actually fried one single piece of hardware ever. At work, I reached into a running computer to feel how hot a HD was. I touched the running HD, felt a zap, and the computer shut down, and the drive wouldn't spin. We got a replacement from Dell. Only thing I've ever had fry on me...

Truth be told I always make sure the laptops are disconnected before i dismantle them Grin


Absolutely amazing, do they not teach basic physics in school anymore?

So I guess your right, I said everything has a 100% immediate failure rate without ESD protection. That whole walking wounded thing is just an urban myth I guess, and all the research and numbers over the years have been disproved by you!!!!!

Your experience proves an entire industry wrong, hell you even proved NASA wrong.

http://eed.gsfc.nasa.gov/562/ESD_PreventionGSFCHWFrontpage.htm

Better get in contact with them right away and let them know that they do not have to worry about ESD.

Maybe you should publish a paper, I am sure the entire industry would like to know that they can save all kinds of money by not worrying about ESD anymore. YaY!!!

So I admit to the form, that the anecdotal evidence presented in this thread proves ESD is just a hoax, all the research,mathematics and electron microscope studies of failures are just total BS to sell grounding straps.

I have been bested, enjoy your "victory".


Just got two things to say to this, since it's a pointless debate.  Billions of consumer products prove the point, so it's not use arguing.

1. GFSC hardware is mostly considered mission critical, I would take precautions regardless of the chance in a mission critical application.  Comparing bitcoin mining by CONSUMERS to mission critical multibillion dollar industries where a failed system can result in millions or billions of dollars lost in a firey explosion is perfectly normal.  Yes, right.  Got it.

2.  The ESD boogey man is alive an well in every industry.  The grey beards are just as ingrained if not more so than myself and it's an almost impossible habit to break.  That said, please provide ANY statistics to back up that CONSUMER grade products have a failure rate that has been attributed to static discharge in any capacity beyond the norm.  I can save you time: you can't.  There are no abnormal failure rates due to ESD on consumer grade products. There are a number of factors that contribute to this, including the life expectancy of consumer products that is measured in months or a scant few years, not decades.
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
June 28, 2012, 09:01:44 PM
#72



Why didn't you reply to the following post?

Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously???  Shocked

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.
I just wanted to chime in with some wisdom from the former CEO of my company who actually had a long experience managing assembly lines in the electronic industry.

The neatnik streak as displayed by dreamwatcher, especially the anti-ESD propaganda, is just a cover for the real management issues:

1) theft, both occasional and organized.
2) sabotage, especially when temporary labor force is employed.
3) anti-union or other political/labor issues, e.g. drug distribution amongst the people doing monotone work.
4) need for managerial control of positive factors: tracking of the good workers for possible promotion.
5) need for managerial control of negative factors: locating and investigating of workplace accidents and incidents.
6) saleability, state of being visibly spotless, mostly in case of consumer goods.
7) ESD is nowadays mostly a human factor, not a technical precaution. When people are repeatedly zapped their productivity goes down and it increases the chance of accidents.

Really, please think a bit about the history of the USA. Messrs. Hewlett and Packard probably should consider themselves lucky that nobody was there in their garage to make a snapshot of the sweat on their backs as they assembled the first laboratory oscillator that they sold to Walt Disney.



No arguments?
I had more sarky remarks, but this has turned into a worthless exercise in futility.
I am done with this thread, nothing I will say will convince you or others, and nothing is going to change my views. It appears a large chunk of my fellow engineers are not going to post one way or another. Perhaps they were much smarter than I and realized the futility of continuing the discourse.
As for the above poster, second hand information that if you really read closely does not make a whole lot of sense in what ESD protocol is, just look at #7, Really??? You cannot be that gullible.

Perhaps the most telling
FYI - this is a non debate.  Ours is an ESD protected environment.  I would agree with Inaba in terms of scale of concern, but it's not an issue either way.  Open board work is done with ESD Matts & pretty blue wrist straps.   (I feel icky for having stepped in to answer this at all)

Do I really need to comment? It makes one of BFL's reps feel "icky" to answer a simple protocol question.

It has been an experience to say the least, and  I thought about making copies of this thread to show to my associates and in the fall to my professors. Instead I think I will let it die . People will read it before it falls off the front page and hopefully take something from it one way or the other.

More than likely i will be buying one of BFL products, I really never wanted the thread to turn out the way it did, but somehow we got here. My intention was never to slam BFL, just express a concern and get a proper answer which I was sure BFL had.

Well, good luck to you all and to BFL labs, see you around the forums.
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1002
June 28, 2012, 08:58:31 PM
#71
So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

So when I take every single GPU I get apart and replace the thermal paste (in a carpeted room, on a wooden desk, with no protection), they should all be fried by now? Now I am somewhat cautious: I try not to place them ON the carpet, and I tend to touch my computer case when I"m about to pick the GPU up, but still...

Side note, I have actually fried one single piece of hardware ever. At work, I reached into a running computer to feel how hot a HD was. I touched the running HD, felt a zap, and the computer shut down, and the drive wouldn't spin. We got a replacement from Dell. Only thing I've ever had fry on me...

Truth be told I always make sure the laptops are disconnected before i dismantle them Grin


Absolutely amazing, do they not teach basic physics in school anymore?

So I guess your right, I said everything has a 100% immediate failure rate without ESD protection. That whole walking wounded thing is just an urban myth I guess, and all the research and numbers over the years have been disproved by you!!!!!

Your experience proves an entire industry wrong, hell you even proved NASA wrong.

http://eed.gsfc.nasa.gov/562/ESD_PreventionGSFCHWFrontpage.htm

Better get in contact with them right away and let them know that they do not have to worry about ESD.

Maybe you should publish a paper, I am sure the entire industry would like to know that they can save all kinds of money by not worrying about ESD anymore. YaY!!!

So I admit to the form, that the anecdotal evidence presented in this thread proves ESD is just a hoax, all the research,mathematics and electron microscope studies of failures are just total BS to sell grounding straps.

I have been bested, enjoy your "victory".

Why didn't you reply to the following post?

Open liquids (coffee cup) in an electronic assembly room??? Seriously???  Shocked

I don't know about you, but if I am paying up to $30k for a piece of equipment, I EXPECT it to be assembled professionally.

I once worked in a cordless phone factory, that produced phones that at a max went for around $80, and all the above protocol was used.
I just wanted to chime in with some wisdom from the former CEO of my company who actually had a long experience managing assembly lines in the electronic industry.

The neatnik streak as displayed by dreamwatcher, especially the anti-ESD propaganda, is just a cover for the real management issues:

1) theft, both occasional and organized.
2) sabotage, especially when temporary labor force is employed.
3) anti-union or other political/labor issues, e.g. drug distribution amongst the people doing monotone work.
4) need for managerial control of positive factors: tracking of the good workers for possible promotion.
5) need for managerial control of negative factors: locating and investigating of workplace accidents and incidents.
6) saleability, state of being visibly spotless, mostly in case of consumer goods.
7) ESD is nowadays mostly a human factor, not a technical precaution. When people are repeatedly zapped their productivity goes down and it increases the chance of accidents.

Really, please think a bit about the history of the USA. Messrs. Hewlett and Packard probably should consider themselves lucky that nobody was there in their garage to make a snapshot of the sweat on their backs as they assembled the first laboratory oscillator that they sold to Walt Disney.


No arguments?
full member
Activity: 202
Merit: 100
June 28, 2012, 08:01:48 PM
#70
Cool.

I nominate Inaba for the scammer label.

Wat?
If I were to bet I'd say you are BFL.

But time will tell.

I will take that bet.  Please let me know how much you want to bet, I will cover any bet you care to name.

So... put your money where your mouth is before further sounding like an idiot.  I propose we go with 1000 BTC to start, what say you?  We can pick a neutral escrow agent that we both agree upon.  If you want to bet more, just name your amount and I'm in.
Don't be ridiculous. If I had 1000 BTC I would have something better to do with them.
To bad I have to add that as a disclaimer as of every post I make.

From my casual observation you are overly concerned for a independent party about bystander comments like mine, again just a thought. Move on dude, it's just my humble opinion.

PS: LOL Internet.

So you are a fucking retard.
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
June 28, 2012, 05:28:43 PM
#69
So, according to dreamwatcher all my laptops should be fried by now from me dismantling them piece by piece every 3 months without any kind of ESD protection whatsoever...

Cool!

So when I take every single GPU I get apart and replace the thermal paste (in a carpeted room, on a wooden desk, with no protection), they should all be fried by now? Now I am somewhat cautious: I try not to place them ON the carpet, and I tend to touch my computer case when I"m about to pick the GPU up, but still...

Side note, I have actually fried one single piece of hardware ever. At work, I reached into a running computer to feel how hot a HD was. I touched the running HD, felt a zap, and the computer shut down, and the drive wouldn't spin. We got a replacement from Dell. Only thing I've ever had fry on me...

Truth be told I always make sure the laptops are disconnected before i dismantle them Grin


Absolutely amazing, do they not teach basic physics in school anymore?

So I guess your right, I said everything has a 100% immediate failure rate without ESD protection. That whole walking wounded thing is just an urban myth I guess, and all the research and numbers over the years have been disproved by you!!!!!

Your experience proves an entire industry wrong, hell you even proved NASA wrong.

http://eed.gsfc.nasa.gov/562/ESD_PreventionGSFCHWFrontpage.htm

Better get in contact with them right away and let them know that they do not have to worry about ESD.

Maybe you should publish a paper, I am sure the entire industry would like to know that they can save all kinds of money by not worrying about ESD anymore. YaY!!!

So I admit to the form, that the anecdotal evidence presented in this thread proves ESD is just a hoax, all the research,mathematics and electron microscope studies of failures are just total BS to sell grounding straps.

I have been bested, enjoy your "victory".





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