[XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1290.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on May 27, 2016, 09:26:59 PM

BUT it may lengthen the long thin tail of small Hodlors behind the Pareto-spec'd ~20% of whales.

Can you elaborate on this? I understand long thin tails but not the rest. What do you consider the minimum level of hodlings to qualify as a whale?

Assuming XMR follows Pareto's ~80/20 distribution, we'd expect the fat part of the distribution curve at the front representing whales, with a long thin distribution at the end representing small holders.

As the GUI lowers the barrier to entry, I speculate the long thin part will gain more than the short fat bit, because the higher barriers aren't as much of an issue for the smart/rich whales (and I believe whales tend to get into these kinds of projects early, long before Official GUI type stuff).

If we define whale as a second-order (top 20% of the top 20%) Pareto distribution holder, we still need an estimate of how many users exist to calculate an exact qualifying number.

Or we could say a whale is defined by the ability to make an outsize splash in the markets, IE significantly move the price in either direction regardless of overall market sentiment.

How about 1%? It does sound a little too "Occupy" for my taste, but it gives us a convenient minimum of 120,000 XMR and there can at maximum only be 100 of them. Tongue

rpietila

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Quote from: Days on May 28, 2016, 01:44:39 AM

P.S like really who can't develop a GUI as a crypto developer for two years? gambling websites & price bouncing is not enough already?!

If it is piece of cake, what prohibits you to make another one to the long list of existing Monero GUI's ??

I heard you can make one over the weekend. But then what? It is a lifelong commitment to the piece of software, 24/7 technical support, no salary.

If the devteam does not have the resources to do it now, perhaps you should? If you have critique on their priorities, you have many friends (or perhaps socks).

birr

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Harshing my mellow!

Days

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Reality is "I believe" the so called Monero developers intentionally postponed releasing a GUI wallet because if they release it to the public then what's next?! they are not high level Cyrpto coders in Monero team.

Milking people out with "ONCE GUI WALLET COMES THIS COIN WILL BE WORTH AT LEAST X10 IT IS NOW" if you think about it imagine Monero has a GUI wallet released months ago their price would be even lower now because there is nothing else but big fixing/ gambling website/ and forum developers/gangsters "SMOOTH"

They keep their name up by messing with real developers work in these forums, reddit, and even when articles is been written by cyrpto websites you will see them spreading negativity in the comments. It is truly a sad coin

P.S like really who can't develop a GUI as a crypto developer for two years? gambling websites & price bouncing is not enough already?!

iCEBREAKER

legendary

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 03:30:01 PM

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 03:27:10 PM

Quote from: Hueristic on May 27, 2016, 02:48:43 PM

Gui will help adoption period there are no arguments that are sound against that.

I disagree completely. There are plenty of reasonable arguments against that, the biggest of which is that a bundled GUI will do nothing to attract adoption outside of the cryptosphere, and almost everyone inside the cryptosphere is already aware of Monero and can use it if they want to.

I'm afraid I can't agree. It will help facilitate that adoption by giving people (including people outside the cryptosphere) something to download that is easier to use. Without that such efforts face a very uphill battle. You could possibly reach beyond the cryptposhere to other sys admis, software developers, etc. who are comfortable with command line tool, but that's a narrow market with little obvious attraction to alternative monetary systems.

Quote from: instacalm on May 27, 2016, 03:28:50 PM

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 03:27:10 PM

A GUI by itself will do little for adoption.

What will?

Nothing will, by itself. There are many pieces that need to fit together, GUI being one of them.

The Official GUI won't really change (except as a reaction to the Good News) the fat part of XMR's distribution, BUT it may lengthen the long thin tail of small Hodlors behind the Pareto-spec'd ~20% of whales.

Johnny Mnemonic

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Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 07:51:05 PM

My point is that even now (with few grandmas involved) MyMonero does not serve as a good baseline solution, it is specialized to those who want convenience and don't care much about security or avoiding reliance on third parties. I could also say that about a GUI based on the earlier (pre-LMDB) implementation. Since the current version can cold sync in a lot of cases (not all -- older or slower computers or very slow net connections can't be avoided) in an hour or so, uses minimal memory and acceptable amounts of storage, it is more suitable for more segments of users (if not numerically more users), though still not everyone.

I agree MyMonero is not a good baseline solution, but I don't agree that a core GUI is any "better." The trade-offs don't fit the needs of a "general user" who needs a reasonable amount of security and a much greater level of convenience.

I suppose our definitions of "general user" differ, but I don't ever see general users running their own node to make transactions.

- General users will never "be their own bank" (because they don't trust themselves to secure their entire savings, and they shouldn't)
- General users only need as much security as their physical leather wallet provides, as its just their spending money
- General users value convenience over just about everything else

Johnny Mnemonic

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Quote from: Hueristic on May 27, 2016, 06:09:30 PM

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 04:24:39 PM

I doubt Grandma will ever run her own node, regardless of GUI. In the CryptoFuture, I imagine Grandma will use a third-party solution specifically designed for grandmas

EDIT: or she will just enter her PIN at the register after the point-of-sale machine connects to her NFC powered keyring wallet. No GUI required.

First off grandma and most anyone else that will use crypto could care less about running a node. Logical fallacy (Straw Man) there.

That's exactly my point, and it's not a logical fallacy. You don't need the core software unless you want to run your own node. So why does grandma need a core GUI?

ArticMine

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Monero Core Team

Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 07:51:05 PM

@ArticMine to be clear you are disagreeing only with my first sentence. The rest about third party solutions specializing for different markets applies equally to the older segment given what you have suggested about their preferences. For example, they might like Trezor or other hardware wallets.

My point is that even now (with few grandmas involved) MyMonero does not serve as a good baseline solution, it is specialized to those who want convenience and don't care much about security or avoiding reliance on third parties. I could also say that about a GUI based on the earlier (pre-LMDB) implementation. Since the current version can cold sync in a lot of cases (not all -- older or slower computers or very slow net connections can't be avoided) in an hour or so, uses minimal memory and acceptable amounts of storage, it is more suitable for more segments of users (if not numerically more users), though still not everyone.

Yes my disagreement is with your first sentence. I do agree that the appeal of MyMonero is strongest for low memory, storage, bandwidth etc. situations.

smooth

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@ArticMine to be clear you are disagreeing only with my first sentence. The rest about third party solutions specializing for different markets applies equally to the older segment given what you have suggested about their preferences. For example, they might like Trezor or other hardware wallets.

My point is that even now (with few grandmas involved) MyMonero does not serve as a good baseline solution, it is specialized to those who want convenience and don't care much about security or avoiding reliance on third parties. I could also say that about a GUI based on the earlier (pre-LMDB) implementation. Since the current version can cold sync in a lot of cases (not all -- older or slower computers or very slow net connections can't be avoided) in an hour or so, uses minimal memory and acceptable amounts of storage, it is more suitable for more segments of users (if not numerically more users), though still not everyone.

ArticMine

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Monero Core Team

Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 06:49:30 PM

...

Grandma would probably use MyMonero over the core GUI (though maybe not for longer-term storage of value). That is a good example of third party solutions starting to specialize.

By "generic" user I didn't mean grandma but a wide base of all sorts of users without specialization, and that's where MyMonero fails to hold up. That includes people who see the primary use of crypto today and for the indefinite future as a store of value, medium- to long-term speculative investment, or perhaps as a medium of exchange that is somewhere between reasonably and very private. In all of those cases many won't want to use a web wallet.

I have to disagree here. People over the age of 55 were raised on cash and in many cases are very distrustful of third party payment providers and are very fearful of identity theft. They are also very privacy conscious. Furthermore they are far more likely to adopt the technology of their grand children than the technology of their children. For a senior the strongest appeal of crypto currency is likely its cash like properties, (cash one can use on the Internet) since that is their comfort level. If they adopt a crypto currency it is highly unlikely that they will then turn it into the very thing they are trying to avoid.

As a baby boomer, my take is that the baby boomers can be a very receptive demographic for Monero, but I doubt we will buy in if we are sold the same technology we rejected 20 years ago.

smooth

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Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 04:37:46 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 04:26:35 PM

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

Grandma would probably use MyMonero over the core GUI (though maybe not for longer-term storage of value). That is a good example of third party solutions starting to specialize.

By "generic" user I didn't mean grandma but a wide base of all sorts of users without specialization, and that's where MyMonero fails to hold up. That includes people who see the primary use of crypto today and for the indefinite future as a store of value, medium- to long-term speculative investment, or perhaps as a medium of exchange that is somewhere between reasonably and very private. In all of those cases many won't want to use a web wallet.

dEBRUYNE

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Quote from: generalizethis on May 27, 2016, 05:39:31 PM

Quote from: dEBRUYNE on May 27, 2016, 05:31:09 PM

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 04:37:46 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 04:26:35 PM

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

Security.

Do you think anyone that needs a simple to use wallet is practicing OSPEC? Or do you mean the appearance of security?

Well, a webwallet (without 2FA) obviously poses more attack factors than a local wallet. Therefore, a local wallet to the extent of a GUI is not only more secure, but also generally perceived as more secure. Frankly, no one will really know what the impact will be, besides that it clearly gives the less-technical a (for them) more comfortable option to store their Monero. Furthermore, there simply is a learning curve to using the CLI, which a lot of people don't want to take on.

Arux

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Quote from: jwinterm on May 27, 2016, 09:48:12 AM

Is Monero core in a compileable state yet? Can one build it and test it out?

compilable but not usable.

if your system is compiling fine bitmonerod, monero-core should be compiling too.

1) grab and prepare the source:

Code:

git clone https://github.com/mbg033/monero-core.git
cd monero-core
./get_libwallet_api.sh

2) compile the qt part:

Code:

sudo apt-get install qtbase5-dev qt5-default qtdeclarative5-dev qml-module-qtquick-controls qml-module-qtquick-xmllistmodel
qmake
make

3) launch

Code:

release/monero-core

Hueristic

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Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 04:24:39 PM

Quote from: Hueristic on May 27, 2016, 04:10:53 PM

Let me link Grandma to anything other than a official supported easy to use GUI and see what happens.

I doubt Grandma will ever run her own node, regardless of GUI. In the CryptoFuture, I imagine Grandma will use a third-party solution specifically designed for grandmas

EDIT: or she will just enter her PIN at the register after the point-of-sale machine connects to her NFC powered keyring wallet. No GUI required.

If you've read any of my posts, you can probably tell I'm a big, big fan of user experience and accessibility. I just don't think it has much place in the core software, as it will ultimately not be a user end-point.

First off grandma and most anyone else that will use crypto could care less about running a node. Logical fallacy (Straw Man) there.

The masses need a GUI released from the Core team for one reason only. TRUST, all the other reasons are quibblable (ohh did i make a word up: fails spell check). Cheesy

AFA the bolded, in a perfect world yes. In reality a vast majority will not spend the time to do due diligence one something that is not backed by those they trust and unless XMR Dev's put on the Landing page that that (whatever wallet) is the official wallet (hence they are putting their word behind it) then nothing is going to get widely adopted. AFA the argument that many use different BTC wallets you forget that that is after the fact that they started with one supported wallet and diverged from there for whatever reason.

Quote from: generalizethis on May 27, 2016, 05:39:31 PM

...
Do you think anyone that needs a simple to use wallet is practicing OSPEC? Or do you mean the appearance of security?

Nope and Yup, not only the appearance but the trust of those supplying it without having to goto the effort to do the research.

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: dEBRUYNE on May 27, 2016, 05:31:09 PM

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 04:37:46 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 04:26:35 PM

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

Security.

Do you think anyone that needs a simple to use wallet is practicing OSPEC? Or do you mean the appearance of security?

dEBRUYNE

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 1141

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 04:37:46 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 04:26:35 PM

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

Security.

Johnny Mnemonic

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Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 04:26:35 PM

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

But such a solution already exists. MyMonero is already much simpler than downloading the core software and running a node, even with a bundled GUI. Why would grandma (or any "generic user") need the core GUI over MyMonero? Who does it really serve?

smooth

legendary

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Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 04:16:19 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 27, 2016, 04:08:15 PM

Quote from: Johnny Mnemonic on May 27, 2016, 03:37:47 PM

EDIT: for example, Poloniex doesn't need an XMR GUI to offer users a robust and intuitive crypto exchange... and XMR.TO and Shapeshift don't need an XMR GUI to offer users quick and easy btc conversion.

Except that is completely wrong. Poloniex can't offer a robust and intuitive crypto exchange for XMR unless users have the ability to
withdraw their coins in a manner consistent with the skill and comfort level. The same applies to all of the others more or less (less so for MyMonero).

It is also the case that spending coins left on an exchange, while possible, is inconvenient.

Part of the appeal of a private store of value is that you can actually store it yourself under your own control. Only then can you proceed to use it by spending it (which in turn makes it attractive to offer services to people using Monero as a private store of value), but not before. Without a GUI many potential users can't do either.

I'm not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with. I'm not saying GUI's aren't important. I'm saying they're products that should be left to third parties and are largely outside the scope of what the core software should include.

Except that the market isn't there for it, so third parties aren't doing it effectively, yet. Since that is the case, we have to focus efforts on getting one easy-to-use, easy to obtain and install, and well-maintained GUI out there.

I'd say the same thing about exchanges or anything else if no one were providing the service (in fact I sort of did that with the OTC trading thread in the very early days of Monero).

With greater adoption and scale (including liquidity and market cap), more third parties will be able to effectively provide these products, and they will likely do it better because they will be able to specialize on different feature tradeoffs and particular market segments (including grandmas), but until then we have to fill the gap with something reasonably suitable for a generic "user" if we want to get anywhere.

Johnny Mnemonic

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Quote from: Hueristic on May 27, 2016, 04:10:53 PM

Let me link Grandma to anything other than a official supported easy to use GUI and see what happens.

I doubt Grandma will ever run her own node, regardless of GUI. In the CryptoFuture, I imagine Grandma will use a third-party solution specifically designed for grandmas

EDIT: or she will just enter her PIN at the register after the point-of-sale machine connects to her NFC powered keyring wallet. No GUI required.

If you've read any of my posts, you can probably tell I'm a big, big fan of user experience and accessibility. I just don't think it has much place in the core software, as it will ultimately not be a user end-point.

r0ach

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If Monero wanted to get big attention and adoption, you gotta do something that Bitcoin isn't like below. I think this would be a crazy good crowdfund target (replace the word bitcoin core with monero and openbazaar with monerobazaar):

Quote from: ?? on ??

Integrate something like openbazaar + a messenger client (bitmessage) into Bitcoin core, with an option for toggling between full node and lite client.

Bitcoin Core isn't really in the business of making a monolithic wallet, but Monero could do one (assuming the first non-monolithic wallet ever comes out).

edit: and thus, the Smooth Road is born.

Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1290. (Read 3314316 times)