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Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1375. (Read 3314669 times)

legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
April 05, 2016, 12:52:22 PM
If y'all don't mind me pulling a quasi-hijack from the current subject, allow me to present an item well worth discussing. I actually was torn between posting it here and posting it in a new "General Discussion" thread, because the emerging use case might well be too big for Monero to handle atm. Even though Monero's tech fits this use case hand-in-glove, only Bitcoin has the ready-to-go whale-sized ecosystem and financial infrastructure to exploit this (as of now potential) use case.

First, the news item that got me thinking along the above lines:

Quote from: Associated Press
Trump proposes funding wall by cutting off remittances

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Donald Trump would force Mexico to pay for a border wall by threatening to cut off billions of dollars in remittances sent by immigrants living in the U.S., according to a memo released by his campaign Tuesday.

The memo outlines how Trump would try to compel Mexico to pay for a 1,000-mile wall if he becomes president.

In his proposal, Trump threatened to change a rule under the USA Patriot Act, an anti-terrorism law, to cut off funds sent to Mexico through money transfers known as remittances. Trump said he would withdraw the threat if Mexico makes "a one-time payment of $5-10 billion" to finance the wall."

The U.S. is home to about 12 million Mexicans, some living here illegally, according to various research organizations that monitor trends in immigration. They and other migrants use money transfer agents or banks to send money home, often with the objective of supporting their families.

The Mexican central bank reported that money sent home by Mexicans overseas hit nearly $24.8 billion last year, overtaking oil revenues for the first time as a source of foreign income. Cutting off those transfers would therefore represent a significant blow to the Mexican economy. Trump's campaign says that money "provides substantial leverage for the United States to obtain from Mexico the funds necessary to pay for a border wall."

"We have the moral high ground here, and all the leverage," the memo reads. "It is time we use it in order to Make America Great Again."

Now, it could be argued that the above item is 100% nothingburger because Trump won't win the Presidency. That's a point, but consider these two counterpoints:

1) The fear engendered by the fact that someone like Donald Trump has come close to the Presidency;
2) The related, and more rational, fear that the Establishment politicians will act to cut off or heavily tax those to-Mexico remittances anyway. If Donald Trump winds up losing, all they have to do is wait a long-enough interval to credibly claim that they're not knuckling under to The Donald and then claim that they've "answered the just demands of the [Trump supporters]".

What's intriguing about this use-case is that it has the potential to be framed as moral to a much wider group of people than hardcore libertarians. Imagine the typical Dem who hears about a Monero-powered para-remittance channel for those immigrants, justified as a way to "fight xenophobia!" He or she would actually be torn. On the one hand, it would clearly be a dark-market operation whose reason for being is to evade a new tax. But on the other hand, it would be explicitly set up to evade a highly regressive tax placed on the backs of mostly poor immigrants. The fact that it'd be a dark money pathway explicitly set up to help a group of disadvantaged and recently-maligned group of people would elicit a lot of squirmy sympathy or even hand-wringy support amongst Dems who can't stand the Trump movement. As a "moral" dark market, it's far more bankable than is Agora or the now-defunct Silk Road.

And, to shift to admittedly callous dollar-sand-cents figuring, a Big Fat Tax on fiat remittances to Mexico would open up a much larger "liquidity cushion" than Western Union's fees do. Even if the net proceeds from a Monero remittance were to knock off 50% in fiat terms, that 50% would match a 10% fee with a 40% tax piled on top of it.

But I think the best way to sell it, to undocumented-immigrant communities who already have lots of good reasons to be stuck-in-the-familiar-rut cautious, is emotional. Present a Monero para-remittance path as a way to whack the Donald Trump piñata with your money.

To be frank, I know next to nothing about those communities and I have no connections to any of them; I know no Spanish. So in this sense, I'm talking through my hat. But feel free to comment on this idea.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 504
April 05, 2016, 11:49:54 AM

This is inspiring - I am filled with pride watching those in power stand up for individual right to privacy.  We are right now deciding on the world we want to see in the future - a global surveillance state where no new ideas can prosper due to fears of censorship and repercussions, or an enlightened society of 'individual kingdoms' where everyone gets to decide their own level of involvement with the greater objectives of the species.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 504
April 05, 2016, 11:35:41 AM

I know smooth argued that over the long-term methodical open source wins, and I argued that over the short-term Monero's long-term could be disrupted. I don't want to start another flame war. I haven't delivered any usable crypto. Again this stuff frustrates me, so head down is my best response.

If you are as legendary of a coder as you say, have you considered working on the Monero code some and offering some commits?  Perhaps you can help bolster and accelerate development of what you admit is the best solution thus far.




On the subject of price rises - I think we could see much larger rises, at least once more in our lifetimes.  We have a miracle combination of a critical mass of individuals all aware of the advantages of cryptocurrency combined with a maturation of the technology.  
  
I can see Monero 'stagnating' in the single and double digits of dollars for many years (even though this would still be a significant rise from current levels)...  but I can also see a meteoric rocket from something like $4 a Monero in 2016 to $40,000 a Monero by 2018.  It will be the next 'tulip mania' and everyone will be screaming to get in.... right before Monero has an awful crash from $40,000 each down to $4,000 each in 2019 and is declared 'dead'.  These kinds of things can happen frightfully fast once a critical mass is reached.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
April 05, 2016, 11:11:29 AM
I think there will be a coin or possibly several coins that will experience bitcoin-like meteoric rise.
Even if XMR is not the one.

You see, if you assume crypto currencies will take over the world in coming years/decades, it cannot be that the largest crypto has marketcap of only in billions of dollars. If you look at the small currencies, their marketcaps are in 1012 rather than billions (not to mention any major currency).

Therefore if a currency starts pretty much from the scratches, it will give a huge leverage to the wealth.

Therefore, by stating "there will be no more bitcoin 2009-2013" is correct - there will be even bigger rises on the horizon (assuming once again crypto currencies will take over the trade and the current monetary system).
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 05, 2016, 10:57:59 AM
Yeah, I think you're absolutely correct with everything you say above.

People tend to get mesmerized by patterns in life.  The only pre-viewed pattern that seems to fit in crypto is Bitcoin, specifically the meteoric rise that happened in 2013.  Personally, I think that was a unique confluence of events that is unlikely to repeat in our lifetimes.  Too many factors have changed.

Kids hopping the ETH train view it as their birthright to have THEIR successful crypto rocketship to fortune.  Facts be damned.

I still think the story has yet to be written about crypto, in general, and whether or not it can scale to mass adoption (and maybe shed that nefarious label...I think it can).  I also think you're absolutely correct that the real money is NOT investing in all these random tokens.

I don't think there will be another Bitcoin circa 2012-2013.  
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 05, 2016, 10:53:40 AM
Edit#2: let us not forget how much work developing crypto is. Monero has a solid open source methodical forward movement...

I was trying to remember where I had seen an interesting blog post by Professor Dave Anderson (who is on the quoted linked page):

http://da-data.blogspot.com/2014/08/minting-money-with-monero-and-cpu.html?view=sidebar
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/hefuc/proposal.html

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 05, 2016, 10:03:28 AM
Don't you think zcash is a factor in this?  Maybe I'm misreading the tea leaves but the ethereum market cap seems to indicate that people are more comfortable funding development via premine / taxed mining rewards than not having any subsidies and slower development.  (XMR and Dash would be another comparison ... and those are two coins where the economic winner is clearly not the technical winner).

Is it because they think Ethereum is getting more development than it really is? Because it is seems reasonably clear from the technological facts in the Ethereum Paradox thread that Ethereum's development is mostly useless. Or am I hallucinating?

I think many people are looking for the next huge adoption coin. So they are ripe for bullshit about smart contracts, etc..

I am going to guess that we have a confluence of:

1. N00bs who really can't understand the technology and only think in simple soundbite buzzword terms.

2. Growing impatience/frustration about reaching the Bitcoin promise of mass adoption.

3. The wet dream of acquiring the next Big Thang in its nascent stage. Disguising a guaranteed P&D and lying to oneself about how that prevents it from ever having the network effects to be the next Big Thing, seems to be the delusion du jour.

Whereas, I think if there is any demand for parking capital in a decentralized, permissionless coin with the best open source development for minimizing risk, I am thinking Monero and Bitcoin are at the top of that list and what Bitcoin gains in terms of liquidity/widespread acceptance it gives up some to Monero in terms of its scalepocalypse. Also RingCT will add damn good privacy.

But since all these user adoption markets (including Bitcoin) are really still tiny, I doubt we have significant non-tinfoil-hat demographic serious money investing in tokens and the serious venture capital was going into ecosystem startups. So it is here that I think Bitcoin is kicking ass on every altcoin that aren't even with an ear shot. Mention crypto currency and the mainstream investors probably roll their eyes and say "nefarious".

When ever I write or think about this, I get frustrated and want to just go back to working on my project because I don't really have anything good to say. Let's see what others have to say and if they push their biases aside and comment rationally.

I know smooth argued that over the long-term methodical open source wins, and I argued that over the short-term Monero's long-term could be disrupted. I don't want to start another flame war. I haven't delivered any usable crypto. Again this stuff frustrates me, so head down is my best response.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 05, 2016, 09:46:52 AM

Most of bolded is explained by the dispostion effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_effect

Interesting biases/theories that are related to this are the endownment effect and prospect theory. All boil down to behavioral finance, which is in my opinion an interesting subject.

Very interesting.  Thank you.
legendary
Activity: 1256
Merit: 1009
April 05, 2016, 09:33:42 AM
Calm down, everybody in here is nervous about Monero so don't let it grab you too. Just take a cup of tea, make your predictions and trade as you like  Grin

Monitoring the short-term exchange(s) noise continuously can be very stressful.

Monero won't have Bitcoin's scaling problem until the transaction rate and market cap are much higher. Interim it should have an upgrade to RingCT, so I think it is given that 2016 - 2017 Monero will have a very significant rise as priced in BTC. Clearly XMR has broken out above of the downwedge as priced in BTC. I do think we still have a correction in BTC coming though, so I'd be keeping some dry US dollar powder on the table for a few months before going all in.

Beyond that it gets murkier. Because for example, I presume I will launch in 2017 with a real solution to the economies-of-scale economics of the scaling problem but even I recognize there is a long way to go between that plan and the actual accomplishment, so even I can't predict with 100% surety that event, much less all the other variables in play.

I don't see any other altcoin in 2016 ready to displace Monero as the free market, reliable alternative for parking money escaping the accelerating collapse of the peripheral markets (outside the USA) with Europe ready to march over the cliff after the BREXIT vote. I might have a Seedr IPO within 2016 at best, but that will be for the corporation not the token (which will be separately fair proof-of-work launched).

I am not referring to other pumps that are approaching as I can't predict the timing irrationality of gamblers, scammers, and the n00b prey who are learning by fire. I am referring to those well informed, serious investors who need to hedge against Bitcoin's scalepocalyspe and increasing centralization of mining especially 65% pool control in China. Look around and there is no other option with a CPU friendly hash function that is ready for prime time. Note I have not analyzed for example Lisk and Waves. I presume Lisk is more smart contract nonsense. Waves appears to be about colored coins, but I haven't studied thoroughly. We don't know yet when Zerocash (Z.cash) will launch and whether it will really be ready for prime time. One would presume it will have issues given the inexperience in crypto-currency of the developers.

Fluffypony et al, IMO now is the time to double-down on your coding effort and get the upgrade out as well as the GUI (if that is still an issue).

To others and their altcoins, I am not saying you have no chance to see a free market driven (not pump scam) rise in price also. On a case-by-case basis.

Disclaimer: I haven't really been paying close attention (because my head also needs to be in the sand on my own work) and others may have more well researched opinion.

Don't you think zcash is a factor in this?  Maybe I'm misreading the tea leaves but the ethereum market cap seems to indicate that people are more comfortable funding development via premine / taxed mining rewards than not having any subsidies and slower development.  (XMR and Dash would be another comparison ... and those are two coins where the economic winner is clearly not the technical winner).
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1141
April 05, 2016, 09:01:40 AM
If it weren't for a plethora of scam coins fooling newbies/newcomers and even guys with 2-3 year experience in cryptos, XMR would have had enjoyed lofty high valuations even now. It's a shame that money is always tied up chasing bad decisions and investments, crypto or otherwise.

What I don't understand is where are all the people who lost money on P&Ds? Why do we never hear from them?

The problem right now is I only read in this Altcoin Discussion forum about how excited people are about having bought some altcoins low and selling them for multi-baggers. I don't ever hear from the people who lost money. Where are they? Where did they go?

Without the sordid stories from the losers, everyone thinks it is silly to not try to get rich quick.

Post of the Week right there.  Fascinating topic.

Some of it is due to the power of the anonymity of an internet forum.  People simply don't interact here in the same way they would in a localized, less anonymous environment.

Related to that, I suspect that people assume it negatively impacts their credibility when they admit to making mistakes about backing the wrong horse.  There is no real incentive to admitting one made a mistake, especially if that makes other statements one makes (anonymously) less well-received.  

There may also be an element of something like a selection bias.  If you're currently holding a bag, it's easy to believe that it's about to turn around. My guess, which is pure projection because I've done this, is that you keep holding some coin on which you're way underwater, not because you believe the hype you believed when you bought it, but because you HOPE for that hype to take hold again, if even for a day, so you can get out with less pain.  If you haven't sold at a loss and realized those losses, again, there may be no self-admission that it's a bag you're holding.

Finally, I think it's REALLY EASY to be infected by a common problem among gamblers and speculators.  When you're successful, it's because you're smart.  When you are not successful, it's because you were unlucky or it's due to manipulation.  So our "winning" trades are due to our brilliance, which we will shout to the rooftops.  Our "losing" trades are just bad luck and not worth mentioning.  That totally happens IRL, as well.

This would be a great thread for the Alt Discussion board!





Most of bolded is explained by the dispostion effect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposition_effect

Interesting biases/theories that are related to this are the endownment effect and prospect theory. All boil down to behavioral finance, which is in my opinion an interesting subject.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 05, 2016, 08:22:40 AM
This would be a great thread for the Alt Discussion board!

Done.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
April 05, 2016, 06:56:06 AM
If it weren't for a plethora of scam coins fooling newbies/newcomers and even guys with 2-3 year experience in cryptos, XMR would have had enjoyed lofty high valuations even now. It's a shame that money is always tied up chasing bad decisions and investments, crypto or otherwise.

What I don't understand is where are all the people who lost money on P&Ds? Why do we never hear from them?

The problem right now is I only read in this Altcoin Discussion forum about how excited people are about having bought some altcoins low and selling them for multi-baggers. I don't ever hear from the people who lost money. Where are they? Where did they go?

Without the sordid stories from the losers, everyone thinks it is silly to not try to get rich quick.

Post of the Week right there.  Fascinating topic.

Some of it is due to the power of the anonymity of an internet forum.  People simply don't interact here in the same way they would in a localized, less anonymous environment.

Related to that, I suspect that people assume it negatively impacts their credibility when they admit to making mistakes about backing the wrong horse.  There is no real incentive to admitting one made a mistake, especially if that makes other statements one makes (anonymously) less well-received. 

There may also be an element of something like a selection bias.  If you're currently holding a bag, it's easy to believe that it's about to turn around.  My guess, which is pure projection because I've done this, is that you keep holding some coin on which you're way underwater, not because you believe the hype you believed when you bought it, but because you HOPE for that hype to take hold again, if even for a day, so you can get out with less pain.  If you haven't sold at a loss and realized those losses, again, there may be no self-admission that it's a bag you're holding.

Finally, I think it's REALLY EASY to be infected by a common problem among gamblers and speculators.  When you're successful, it's because you're smart.  When you are not successful, it's because you were unlucky or it's due to manipulation.  So our "winning" trades are due to our brilliance, which we will shout to the rooftops.  Our "losing" trades are just bad luck and not worth mentioning.  That totally happens IRL, as well.

This would be a great thread for the Alt Discussion board!



sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 05, 2016, 04:20:50 AM
If it weren't for a plethora of scam coins fooling newbies/newcomers and even guys with 2-3 year experience in cryptos, XMR would have had enjoyed lofty high valuations even now. It's a shame that money is always tied up chasing bad decisions and investments, crypto or otherwise.

There are too many scam coins out there. Those coins divert the funding flowing into Monero, so the price is low.

They are not in the market for Monero. They want to get rich quick which makes them ripe for manipulation and falling for the good story and pump. They have to learn by fire and only some will readjust their perspective. I don't see any solution to that even if you eliminated the scams they would go find them some where else, but I am trying to think of ways to present data more objectively to help some open their eyes.

Edit: If serious money moves into crypto, they will surely see Monero is the investor's choice.

I think many people are looking for the next huge adoption coin. So they are ripe for bullshit about smart contracts, etc.. Monero afaics is targeting at this point (near-term) more to investors than to users (apology if Monero's long range plans chart is not imprinted on my mind). Although more of the former could form the economy-of-scale to drive more of the latter as it did for Bitcoin (e.g. XMR.to and did that precede and form the idea for ShapeShift.io?), although Monero's main use case (for now) is anonymity and investment afaics.

Edit#2: let us not forget how much work developing crypto is. Monero has a solid open source methodical forward movement. I see other coins as quick flames, e.g. Come-from-Beyond's 12 Java files source code for Iota. I am a programmer so I understand how the man-hours pile up on this shit. To sustain that coding effort for one or two devs, is very intense. I did that in the late 1980s and again in late 1990s; and both times it was a huge sacrifice (eating and sleeping at your desk 14 x 7 for years). I tried to gear it up again in the late 2000s but mid-life maelstrom made it implausible. Trying to gear up for the late 2010s one more time. Much older now. This isn't easy but if it is fun then that is the key. Nobody will do this well and sustained if they aren't enjoying it. Appears to me Shen-noether and fluffy are enjoying this.
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
April 05, 2016, 04:17:05 AM
If it weren't for a plethora of scam coins fooling newbies/newcomers and even guys with 2-3 year experience in cryptos, XMR would have had enjoyed lofty high valuations even now. It's a shame that money is always tied up chasing bad decisions and investments, crypto or otherwise.

There are too many scam coins out there. Those coins divert the funding flowing into Monero, so the price is low.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 05, 2016, 04:01:35 AM
Calm down, everybody in here is nervous about Monero so don't let it grab you too. Just take a cup of tea, make your predictions and trade as you like  Grin

Monitoring the short-term exchange(s) noise continuously can be very stressful.

Monero won't have Bitcoin's scaling problem until the transaction rate and market cap are much higher. Interim it should have an upgrade to RingCT, so I think it is given that 2016 - 2017 Monero will have a very significant rise as priced in BTC. Clearly XMR has broken out above of the downwedge as priced in BTC. I do think we still have a correction in BTC coming though, so I'd be keeping some dry US dollar powder on the table for a few months before going all in.

Beyond that it gets murkier. Because for example, I presume I will launch in 2017 with a real solution to the economies-of-scale economics of the scaling problem but even I recognize there is a long way to go between that plan and the actual accomplishment, so even I can't predict with 100% surety that event, much less all the other variables in play.

I don't see any other altcoin in 2016 ready to displace Monero as the free market, reliable alternative for parking money escaping the accelerating collapse of the peripheral markets (outside the USA) with Europe ready to march over the cliff after the BREXIT vote. I might have a Seedr IPO within 2016 at best, but that will be for the corporation not the token (which will be separately fair proof-of-work launched).

I am not referring to other pumps that are approaching as I can't predict the timing irrationality of gamblers, scammers, and the n00b prey who are learning by fire. I am referring to those well informed, serious investors who need to hedge against Bitcoin's scalepocalyspe and increasing centralization of mining especially 65% pool control in China. Look around and there is no other option with a CPU friendly hash function that is ready for prime time. Note I have not analyzed for example Lisk and Waves. I presume Lisk is more smart contract nonsense. Waves appears to be about colored coins, but I haven't studied thoroughly. We don't know yet when Zerocash (Z.cash) will launch and whether it will really be ready for prime time. One would presume it will have issues given the inexperience in crypto-currency of the developers.

Fluffypony et al, IMO now is the time to double-down on your coding effort and get the upgrade out as well as the GUI (if that is still an issue).

To others and their altcoins, I am not saying you have no chance to see a free market driven (not pump scam) rise in price also. On a case-by-case basis.

Disclaimer: I haven't really been paying close attention (because my head also needs to be in the sand on my own work) and others may have more well researched opinion.
member
Activity: 115
Merit: 10
April 05, 2016, 03:40:40 AM
If it weren't for a plethora of scam coins fooling newbies/newcomers and even guys with 2-3 year experience in cryptos, XMR would have had enjoyed lofty high valuations even now. It's a shame that money is always tied up chasing bad decisions and investments, crypto or otherwise.

What I don't understand is where are all the people who lost money on P&Ds? Why do we never hear from them?

The problem right now is I only read in this Altcoin Discussion forum about how excited people are about having bought some altcoins low and selling them for multi-baggers. I don't ever hear from the people who lost money. Where are they? Where did they go?

Without the sordid stories from the losers, everyone thinks it is silly to not try to get rich quick.

*raises hand*

I think it is because it is a topic victims find embarrassing and would rather forget? We are males (mostly here) and I presume we don't like to be perceived as weak or having failures of judgement.

sometimes there are stories in other sections of btct (here too), but for the most part theres really no reward mechanism for coming here with a losing story. most people here come to make money. most people stay here to make money.

i would imagine the reason that such stories are rarely heard is because typically sob stories wont make you richer here. what will provably make you more money is more money. you could try lobbying for legislation, enforcement or control if you dont have money.

control is probably much easier had by scamming. and not much happens as far as enforcement unless its over a certain marketcap amount.

legislation, you seem to have made the point that its on its way in two years, a while out

apart from 'male ego', theres no real reason to share a sordid story.
hero member
Activity: 795
Merit: 514
April 05, 2016, 02:17:28 AM
If it weren't for a plethora of scam coins fooling newbies/newcomers and even guys with 2-3 year experience in cryptos, XMR would have had enjoyed lofty high valuations even now. It's a shame that money is always tied up chasing bad decisions and investments, crypto or otherwise.

What I don't understand is where are all the people who lost money on P&Ds? Why do we never hear from them?

The problem right now is I only read in this Altcoin Discussion forum about how excited people are about having bought some altcoins low and selling them for multi-baggers. I don't ever hear from the people who lost money. Where are they? Where did they go?

To me this is easy to answer. They left the scene altogether.

Probably, but I think it's easy to forget how few of us (real people) there are in a sea of scammers and shill accounts all trying to defraud one another.

Additionally, there's a difference between people who are generally interested in cryptocurrency and its future and those who simply want to make money trading it. The latter tend to get bored and disappear after losing their shirt a couple times.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
April 05, 2016, 01:23:42 AM
I made a lot (like $10k) buying Dogecoin from $300 per million all the way up to $1800 per million.  Then as it fell I gave a lot of it back.  
  
Then I moved half of that money into Nyancoin and let it sit.  
  
Today those are both relatively worthless investments, so you could say I lost quite a bit.  
  

 
  
Today I am happily and successfully 'bagholding' cryptonotes but I don't fault my losses from the animal-coin era.  I learned a lot about crypto, and it only cost me a few thousand dollars.  That's tuition well spent.  Perhaps if cryptonotes take off we might even see a long awaited ROI from that tuition.

+1
Well, i also thought i can stack up my stash with trading (nOOb trying to "read" the candels), lost a few €k on Monero and now i am getting back my losses by ASIC trading to make up these lost Moneroj. Time, a month or two, will tell if i succeed in doing so.
I also learned it the hard way, like i always did, and i am glad to watch people sharing their knowledge and learning from them, like we all do  Shocked Roll Eyes

"Errors are there to be made, the main thing is to learn from these!"
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 504
April 05, 2016, 01:04:34 AM
I made a lot (like $10k) buying Dogecoin from $300 per million all the way up to $1800 per million.  Then as it fell I gave a lot of it back.  
  
Then I moved half of that money into Nyancoin and let it sit.  
  
Today those are both relatively worthless investments, so you could say I lost quite a bit.  
  

 
  
Today I am happily and successfully 'bagholding' cryptonotes but I don't fault my losses from the animal-coin era.  I learned a lot about crypto, and it only cost me a few thousand dollars.  That's tuition well spent.  Perhaps if cryptonotes take off we might even see a long awaited ROI from that tuition.
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