[XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1880.

explorer

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Quote from: smooth on June 01, 2015, 08:18:49 PM

Quote from: dEBRUYNE on June 01, 2015, 08:34:54 AM

Quote from: Melbustus on May 31, 2015, 10:48:20 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 31, 2015, 03:08:02 PM

...
We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically).
...

Whoa... Seems to me that would very much break some fundamental use-cases for Monero. People probably want to store some wealth privately, for a potentially long time, without any ongoing effort; eg, print a paper key, toss it in a few safe locations, and forget about it. That's been the case for a lot of people who embraced bitcoin as a store-of-value, and I'd guess it is/will-be similar with Monero. Requiring respends obviously breaks that capability.

If the wallet does this automatically for you, the problem is solved right? Check his last sentence. If you don't have to do anything yourself nor access the wallet, this argument can be debunked in my opinion. Smooth, do you have any comment on this perhaps?

If it is offline cold storage then no the wallet couldn't automatically keep the coins fresh (or do anything else). But the original concept shouldn't be mistaken as you needing to put a big flashing sign on your head with your monero address and balance. It just means when you did spent the coins the first spend would need to be mix 0, then after that you or others (no one could tell which) could respend those coins with mixing to reblend them back into the fog of the (then) active blockchain easily enough.

But as I said the obvious implementation has unintended complications so this is not on the agenda right now.

Excellent. So no worse than buying monero on an exchange. One extra jump and all is well.

smooth

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Quote from: dEBRUYNE on June 01, 2015, 08:34:54 AM

Quote from: Melbustus on May 31, 2015, 10:48:20 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 31, 2015, 03:08:02 PM

...
We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically).
...

Whoa... Seems to me that would very much break some fundamental use-cases for Monero. People probably want to store some wealth privately, for a potentially long time, without any ongoing effort; eg, print a paper key, toss it in a few safe locations, and forget about it. That's been the case for a lot of people who embraced bitcoin as a store-of-value, and I'd guess it is/will-be similar with Monero. Requiring respends obviously breaks that capability.

If the wallet does this automatically for you, the problem is solved right? Check his last sentence. If you don't have to do anything yourself nor access the wallet, this argument can be debunked in my opinion. Smooth, do you have any comment on this perhaps?

If it is offline cold storage then no the wallet couldn't automatically keep the coins fresh (or do anything else). But the original concept shouldn't be mistaken as you needing to put a big flashing sign on your head with your monero address and balance. It just means when you did spent the coins the first spend would need to be mix 0, then after that you or others (no one could tell which) could respend those coins with mixing to reblend them back into the fog of the (then) active blockchain easily enough.

But as I said the obvious implementation has unintended complications so this is not on the agenda right now.

kazuki49

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Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: celestio on June 01, 2015, 07:46:27 PM

Also, I just realized avatars are allowed, would it be ok if I use your avatar, "we love Monero"?

absolutely, everyone is free to use it

celestio

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Quote from: kazuki49 on June 01, 2015, 03:58:29 PM

Quote from: adhitthana on June 01, 2015, 04:47:05 AM

Quote from: kazuki49 on May 31, 2015, 10:01:10 PM

I agree with you, I meant there won't be 'a' Bitcoin but two networks cannibalizing each other, so it both can be interpreted as the end of Bitcoin as we know it and the emergence of classic Bitcoin and Gavincoin.

I don't follow bitcoin closely ...what is that all about?

this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqbd78

tl;dr Gavin went nuts and want to abandon the current core bitcoin in favor of an obscure build that will allow his 20m blocks, and he is using his power to make sure everyone will follow him.

I do disagree heavily with the route Gavin's taking, largely because then Bitcoin XT will be controlled by only two people, Gavin and Hearn, and that's pretty centralized, IMO. Also because just increasing the blocksize limit isn't solving anything(Still not close enough in the least to scale to VISA levels for example).

Also, I just realized avatars are allowed, would it be ok if I use your avatar, "we love Monero"?

smooth

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on June 01, 2015, 04:08:35 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 31, 2015, 03:08:02 PM

Bitcoin Core (meaning the implementation as opposed to the Bitcoin protocol, which has a UXTO set but doesn't require processing it in any particular way) does some special thing with the UXTO which I haven't studied specifically so I can't really comment.

Cryptonote doesn't have a UXTO since any output can be spent any number of times. As such all outputs are equal, and there is no special UXTO collection to become overgrown.

In the original cryptonote implementation they were all stored in memory which is obviously absurd. Monero stores them in a database which means they will need to be accessed from a disk, but any efficient database should be able to do these simple lookups efficiently other than the physical access time. Once Monero becomes heavily used that will likely require an SSD, but it seems with 10 TB SSDs possibly arriving within the next year or so the days of anything non-SSD for general purpose computing are likely numbered. Magnetic disks are the new magtape.

We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically). That was considered for MRL-0004 but didn't quite make the cut because of some unresolved complications. That would allow nodes to operate with more limited storage, the way Bitcoin currently does. That's somewhat dangerous though (with both protocols) since there is nothing to ensure that a sufficient number of full archive nodes exist or don't become overloaded. At some point it may then become impossible or nearly impossible for new participants to do a full sync. So more work is needed there too (again with both protocols).

This is great! "No UXTO problem" is a feature important enough to be highlighted in the OP and investor/tech presentations.

Monero is even more awesome than I thought. Thanks smooth!

Look I don't think this is necessarily something to hype about. It means that our engineering work will have to focus on scaling of the entire output set and not some unspent subset (what bitcoin calls the UXTO). That's not necessarily better, and it could be worse.

But I also think that Bitcoin's focus on optimizing for the UXTO may have been a foolish dead end, since the UXTO can be deliberately bloated by an attacker.

kazuki49

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: obit33 on May 30, 2015, 04:57:48 PM

Not sure, that's where the bankers try to confuse us i guess...

what is your definition of inflation? Is it rising prices as the effect of an expanding money-supply, or is it just an expanding money-supply, wether some prices are rising or not?

As I understand: disinflation is a slowing rate of rising prices... it's not a slowing rate in expanding the money supply... so monero doesn't have disinflation, monero has a fixed inflation rate (as in can't be adjusted at will).

interesting discussion, but maybe off topic over here...

It is disinflation, if you look at a graph of Monero inflation rate it will look like this (except going negative aka deflation):

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: smooth on May 31, 2015, 03:08:02 PM

Bitcoin Core (meaning the implementation as opposed to the Bitcoin protocol, which has a UXTO set but doesn't require processing it in any particular way) does some special thing with the UXTO which I haven't studied specifically so I can't really comment.

Cryptonote doesn't have a UXTO since any output can be spent any number of times. As such all outputs are equal, and there is no special UXTO collection to become overgrown.

In the original cryptonote implementation they were all stored in memory which is obviously absurd. Monero stores them in a database which means they will need to be accessed from a disk, but any efficient database should be able to do these simple lookups efficiently other than the physical access time. Once Monero becomes heavily used that will likely require an SSD, but it seems with 10 TB SSDs possibly arriving within the next year or so the days of anything non-SSD for general purpose computing are likely numbered. Magnetic disks are the new magtape.

We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically). That was considered for MRL-0004 but didn't quite make the cut because of some unresolved complications. That would allow nodes to operate with more limited storage, the way Bitcoin currently does. That's somewhat dangerous though (with both protocols) since there is nothing to ensure that a sufficient number of full archive nodes exist or don't become overloaded. At some point it may then become impossible or nearly impossible for new participants to do a full sync. So more work is needed there too (again with both protocols).

This is great! "No UXTO problem" is a feature important enough to be highlighted in the OP and investor/tech presentations.

Monero is even more awesome than I thought. Thanks smooth!

kazuki49

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: adhitthana on June 01, 2015, 04:47:05 AM

Quote from: kazuki49 on May 31, 2015, 10:01:10 PM

I agree with you, I meant there won't be 'a' Bitcoin but two networks cannibalizing each other, so it both can be interpreted as the end of Bitcoin as we know it and the emergence of classic Bitcoin and Gavincoin.

I don't follow bitcoin closely ...what is that all about?

this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqbd78

tl;dr Gavin went nuts and want to abandon the current core bitcoin in favor of an obscure build that will allow his 20m blocks, and he is using his power to make sure everyone will follow him.

elrippo

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Activity: 1008

Merit: 1001

Quote from: rpietila on June 01, 2015, 06:43:04 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 01, 2015, 05:49:06 AM

Having an addictive game doesn't hurt either. Cheesy

While the game is in development, the designer indulges himself in the mysteries of the ancient civilizations:

Just found out that the midpoint of the great chamber of the Kheops Pyramid is situated at such a point (29.9792458° N) that it agrees with the speed of light in vacuum in 9 figure precision (299,792,458 m/s, exact value), corresponding to 3.3 centimeters precision in the placement of the chamber. This is the most astounding coincidence that I have found during my longstanding interest in such. Youtube 1 minute.

It handsomely beats even the values of Pi and e found in Genesis 1:1 and Gospel of John 1:1 in precision. (There is also the well-known 5-digit value of Pi in 1. Kings, quoted from the sceptic site for added credibility among Bible non-believers. This establishes the circumference of the vessel in question in the verse, with 0.5 mm precision given that the diameter was an exact value.)

I think you should watch this -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnXkgxFC30s
I hope you speak some german Risto, because this is a documentary by mathematitians and physichians, not by geologists Grin

I love that guy, an aeronautic engineer Cheesy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFpG4fTiz1g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Hu7oOVvHk

Back to TOPIC Grin

binaryFate

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Activity: 1512

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Still wild and free

Quote from: dEBRUYNE on June 01, 2015, 08:34:54 AM

Quote from: Melbustus on May 31, 2015, 10:48:20 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 31, 2015, 03:08:02 PM

...
We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically).
...

Whoa... Seems to me that would very much break some fundamental use-cases for Monero. People probably want to store some wealth privately, for a potentially long time, without any ongoing effort; eg, print a paper key, toss it in a few safe locations, and forget about it. That's been the case for a lot of people who embraced bitcoin as a store-of-value, and I'd guess it is/will-be similar with Monero. Requiring respends obviously breaks that capability.

If the wallet does this automatically for you, the problem is solved right? Check his last sentence. If you don't have to do anything yourself nor access the wallet, this argument can be debunked in my opinion. Smooth, do you have any comment on this perhaps?

Cannot work if funds are not in a "wallet", aka a software that is at least periodically able to run and do nothing. If you have something completely offline, say a paper wallet or a brain wallet, it cannot update anything.
Maybe additional criteria could be applied to the unspents together with the age, in order to avoid this kind of issue?

dEBRUYNE

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Activity: 2268

Merit: 1141

Quote from: Melbustus on May 31, 2015, 10:48:20 PM

Quote from: smooth on May 31, 2015, 03:08:02 PM

...
We may at some point impose a maximum age for outputs to be mixable (at which point they can be removed from the UXTO when spent, just like Bitcoin; to avoid losing untracability you would have to respend the outputs back to yourself prior to the deadline, or allow a wallet to do so automatically).
...

Whoa... Seems to me that would very much break some fundamental use-cases for Monero. People probably want to store some wealth privately, for a potentially long time, without any ongoing effort; eg, print a paper key, toss it in a few safe locations, and forget about it. That's been the case for a lot of people who embraced bitcoin as a store-of-value, and I'd guess it is/will-be similar with Monero. Requiring respends obviously breaks that capability.

If the wallet does this automatically for you, the problem is solved right? Check his last sentence. If you don't have to do anything yourself nor access the wallet, this argument can be debunked in my opinion. Smooth, do you have any comment on this perhaps?

rpietila

donator

Activity: 1722

Merit: 1036

Quote from: vokain on June 01, 2015, 06:53:08 AM

Risto, have you ever been to the Pyramids?

Not personally, even reading of them is captivating enough

<- let's continue in another thread though Wink

vokain

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Risto, have you ever been to the Pyramids?

rpietila

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Activity: 1722

Merit: 1036

Quote from: generalizethis on June 01, 2015, 05:49:06 AM

Having an addictive game doesn't hurt either. Cheesy

While the game is in development, the designer indulges himself in the mysteries of the ancient civilizations:

Just found out that the midpoint of the great chamber of the Kheops Pyramid is situated at such a point (29.9792458° N) that it agrees with the speed of light in vacuum in 9 figure precision (299,792,458 m/s, exact value), corresponding to 3.3 centimeters precision in the placement of the chamber. This is the most astounding coincidence that I have found during my longstanding interest in such. Youtube 1 minute.

It handsomely beats even the values of Pi and e found in Genesis 1:1 and Gospel of John 1:1 in precision. (There is also the well-known 5-digit value of Pi in 1. Kings, quoted from the sceptic site for added credibility among Bible non-believers. This establishes the circumference of the vessel in question in the verse, with 0.5 mm precision given that the diameter was an exact value.)

kazuki49

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 250

Quote from: rpietila on June 01, 2015, 05:11:58 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 01, 2015, 03:30:28 AM

Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

It has to be noted that before MiG (which is in design still), there is not a single website that is coherently promoting Monero as an investment, a currency, a store of value, or anything that is material to its success marketcapwise.

Or please link if you know of one Wink

This really is a good idea and there isn't anything like that... the official website does a good job as portal for "Monero an open-source project", but its nowhere near the level of information for "Monero a 21th century investment".

I could help translating to some languages.

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: rpietila on June 01, 2015, 05:11:58 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 01, 2015, 03:30:28 AM

Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

It has to be noted that before MiG (which is in design still), there is not a single website that is coherently promoting Monero as an investment, a currency, a store of value, or anything that is material to its success marketcapwise.

Or please link if you know of one Wink

This is how i found out:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinSerious/comments/2eg0r0/whats_the_best_path_for_privacy/

Having an addictive game doesn't hurt either. Cheesy

rpietila

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Activity: 1722

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Quote from: generalizethis on June 01, 2015, 03:30:28 AM

Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

It has to be noted that before MiG (which is in design still), there is not a single website that is coherently promoting Monero as an investment, a currency, a store of value, or anything that is material to its success marketcapwise.

Or please link if you know of one Wink

TrueCryptonaire

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Quote from: generalizethis on June 01, 2015, 03:30:28 AM

Quote from: TrueCryptonaire on June 01, 2015, 02:54:23 AM

I am always a little terrified when I hear that in order to succeed, Monero needs also btc to be succeeded.
By investing into XMR the investor is taking a risk on both Monero's success and Bitcoin's success.

Is it really so that Monero cannot stand on her own feet and merit but need the bitcoin for its success?

No. Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

The text books leave this out, but there was a gold strike in California before Sutter's Mill.

Yup.
Ideally Monero should stand on its own merits.

I read the statements here: "monero will not rise to ath unless btc rallies" etc.
Why XMR needs btc to rally in order to rise?

adhitthana

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Quote from: kazuki49 on May 31, 2015, 10:01:10 PM

I agree with you, I meant there won't be 'a' Bitcoin but two networks cannibalizing each other, so it both can be interpreted as the end of Bitcoin as we know it and the emergence of classic Bitcoin and Gavincoin.

I don't follow bitcoin closely ...what is that all about?

generalizethis

legendary

Activity: 1750

Merit: 1036

Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: TrueCryptonaire on June 01, 2015, 02:54:23 AM

I am always a little terrified when I hear that in order to succeed, Monero needs also btc to be succeeded.
By investing into XMR the investor is taking a risk on both Monero's success and Bitcoin's success.

Is it really so that Monero cannot stand on her own feet and merit but need the bitcoin for its success?

No. Monero's success depends on its usefulness, the community's ability to articulate that usefulness to those currently unaware of Monero and the community's ability to build an ecosystem of products and services designed to maximize Monero's usefulness.

The text books leave this out, but there was a gold strike in California before Sutter's Mill.

Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1880. (Read 3314343 times)