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Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 938. (Read 3314350 times)

member
Activity: 69
Merit: 10
November 15, 2016, 02:31:20 PM
I added this while you were posting.

Quote
If you really wanted to help liquidity you wold put those coins on other exchanges and set up some trading bots.
While I encourage that as well, especially putting some coins up for sale at bitsquare the decentralized exchange, I don't think there's really any kind of liqudity that is better than the other. They serve different functions, and both are important. In fact, a shorter HAS to buy back, a seller doesn't have to buy back. With a short you are thus guaranteed the liquidity both ways.

It doesn't make much difference if the seller is directly person A or person B who sells the coin's of A and is obligated to rebuy the initial amount + interests.

@ TC ...  I disagree, for the reasons you underlined (and I just bolded Smiley)  ... B has to buy back to repay A at some point, creating buying pressure somewhere down the line. A, by lending out his coins to B to short is implicitly showing no desire to sell at that price. If A were to sell, they may or may not buy back in. The immediate effect is the more or less the same, but the longer term effects have the potential to be significantly different.
sr. member
Activity: 453
Merit: 500
hello world
November 15, 2016, 02:21:55 PM
It can be used to dump which shakes confidence and weak hands follow that trend, it hurts the coin. Most people don't check to see whats being lent when they are watching a dump and panicking. I understand your only motive is profit so whatever. If you really wanted to help liquidity you wold put those coins on other exchanges and set up some trading bots.

its you who assumes this is the only market im providing liquidity and im not running "some trading bots", not me saying it.

its those bots you recommend who extract money from markets by the way, not me.

also my motive is not profit, but reasonable liquidity and price stability. if you cant see how they are related to each other besides being registered on this forum for years, me explaining it probably wont help either.


besides that, you say you only hold dust ?i clearly dont. what are you doing to help the ecosystem besides attacking me? the millions of $$ trading volume each day and the newly atracted daytraders may leave the impression we are doing a pretty good job, dont you think ?

legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
November 15, 2016, 02:21:06 PM
I added this while you were posting.

Quote
If you really wanted to help liquidity you wold put those coins on other exchanges and set up some trading bots.
While I encourage that as well, especially putting some coins up for sale at bitsquare the decentralized exchange, I don't think there's really any kind of liqudity that is better than the other. They serve different functions, and both are important. In fact, a shorter HAS to buy back, a seller doesn't have to buy back. With a short you are thus guaranteed the liquidity both ways.

It doesn't make much difference if the seller is directly person A or person B who sells the coin's of A and is obligated to rebuy the initial amount + interests.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
November 15, 2016, 02:17:34 PM
I added this while you were posting.

Quote
If you really wanted to help liquidity you wold put those coins on other exchanges and set up some trading bots.
While I encourage that as well, especially putting some coins up for sale at bitsquare the decentralized exchange, I don't think there's really any kind of liqudity that is better than the other. They serve different functions, and both are important. In fact, a shorter HAS to buy back, a seller doesn't have to buy back. With a short you are thus guaranteed the liquidity both ways.

I think bitsquare needs to change it's name, it's to easily confused with bifinex. To get on something like Kraken or Coinbase we need a more diversified trading eco sytem then just polo and the droppings on Bittrex. If I had the bankroll I'd be doing that, as I think that will help this coin grow much faster than a GUI or aNY OF THE OTHER additions on the roadmap sans mutlisig. Damn laptop, always hitting caps lock instead of "a". Smiley

Not to mention anyone interested in increasing the worth of their coins should be doing everything they can to get on Large USD conversion exchanges rather than making peanuts lending that help suppress the price. I mean really how long do you whales need to accumulate, how rich do you have to get before you consider enough is enough and open this project up. We are not idiots here and sometimes it seems the whales treat us as such because we are not in their category.
member
Activity: 69
Merit: 10
November 15, 2016, 02:03:14 PM
@ TheKoziTwo - great explanation of why the ability to short is essential to price discovery  Smiley

In other news, this should be fun to watch ...

https://coin.dance/blocks

ViaBTC up from 7.5% to 10.43% and Bitcoin.com up from 2.5% to 4.86% in last 24 hours. That's >15% explicity against Segwit and for a hard fork before signalling even begins ...

Adaptive blocksizes anyone ??  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1552
Merit: 1047
November 15, 2016, 02:01:39 PM
I added this while you were posting.

Quote
If you really wanted to help liquidity you wold put those coins on other exchanges and set up some trading bots.
While I encourage that as well, especially putting some coins up for sale at bitsquare the decentralized exchange, I don't think there's really any kind of liqudity that is better than the other. They serve different functions, and both are important. In fact, a shorter HAS to buy back, a seller doesn't have to buy back. With a short you are thus guaranteed the liquidity both ways.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
November 15, 2016, 01:48:50 PM
..
I can't get butthurt I have nothing but dust. I'm pissed that those loans protect shorters and hurt the ecosystem.

please explain how they hurt the ecosystem  in your view Huh

a healthy lending market does nothing but support the ecosystem, since it enables a variety if financial strategies and tools (e.g. hedging) for all market participants.

you seem confused really. protecting shorters? we make shorting possible in the first place. if they get rekt by doing so is not my decision.



+1

There's this common misconception about people selling (or worse: shorting) that they are hurting the coin. You'll notice that people who are bearish tend to get more hate directed towards them. It makes perfect sense, because if you hold and the price is going down it hurts. And who's causing the price to go down? Well obviously sellers/shorters. Shorters becomes an enemy to blame for ones own losses, an outlet for all the frustration that builds up during a long drawn out and bloody beartrend.

While it's easy to fall victim to this sort of thinking I believe this view is narrow minded and here's why:
Without opposing forces the price may go higher, but it will be on low volume and the crashes will be much deeper. In a sense the price becomes more artificial the less volume is involved and the less liquidity is available. Sellers/shorters provide a very important function in the market, that is: liquidity which prevents the price from going too high, and also liqudity that prevents the price from going too low (shorters must close their short, traders who sell buy back). These opposing forces work beautifully to stabilize a market and avoid even higher and lower spikes that we would have had without them. The more opposing forces in a market the more stable it becomes. Stability is GOOD for the coin, not bad.

Can we think of any example where there are no sellers and shorters? Yes. Zcash. There was almost zero supply as it launched and no way to properly short, and the consequence of that was a launching price that went beyond 2 million USD. The ATH has been set and we'll never see prices even remotely close. If there had been sufficient amount of sellers or shorters, this would not have happened, the price would have reflected reality better. I don't think it's heatlhy for any coin to have such raises like we've seen in zcash. And as we've just witnessed, without sellers/shorters, that's what you're gonna get.


I added this while you were posting.

Quote
If you really wanted to help liquidity you wold put those coins on other exchanges and set up some trading bots.
legendary
Activity: 1552
Merit: 1047
November 15, 2016, 01:45:27 PM
..
I can't get butthurt I have nothing but dust. I'm pissed that those loans protect shorters and hurt the ecosystem.

please explain how they hurt the ecosystem  in your view Huh

a healthy lending market does nothing but support the ecosystem, since it enables a variety if financial strategies and tools (e.g. hedging) for all market participants.

you seem confused really. protecting shorters? we make shorting possible in the first place. if they get rekt by doing so is not my decision.



+1

There's this common misconception about people selling (or worse: shorting) that they are hurting the coin. You'll notice that people who are bearish tend to get more hate directed towards them. It makes perfect sense, because if you hold and the price is going down it hurts. And who's causing the price to go down? Well obviously sellers/shorters. Shorters becomes an enemy to blame for ones own losses, an outlet for all the frustration that builds up during a long drawn out and bloody beartrend.

While it's easy to fall victim to this sort of thinking I believe this view is narrow minded and here's why:
Without opposing forces the price may go higher, but it will be on low volume and the crashes will be much deeper. In a sense the price becomes more artificial the less volume is involved and the less liquidity is available. Sellers/shorters provide a very important function in the market, that is: liquidity which prevents the price from going too high, and also liqudity that prevents the price from going too low (shorters must close their short, traders who sell buy back). These opposing forces work beautifully to stabilize a market and avoid even higher and lower spikes that we would have had without them. The more opposing forces in a market the more stable it becomes. Stability is GOOD for the coin, not bad.

Can we think of any example where there are no sellers and shorters? Yes. Zcash. There was almost zero supply as it launched and no way to properly short, and the consequence of that was a launching price that went beyond 2 million USD. The ATH has been set and we'll never see prices even remotely close. If there had been sufficient amount of sellers or shorters, this would not have happened, the price would have reflected reality better. I don't think it's heatlhy for any coin to have such raises like we've seen in zcash. And as we've just witnessed, without sellers/shorters, that's what you're gonna get.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
November 15, 2016, 01:34:42 PM
..
I can't get butthurt I have nothing but dust. I'm pissed that those loans protect shorters and hurt the ecosystem.

please explain how they hurt the ecosystem  in your view Huh

a healthy lending market does nothing but support the ecosystem, since it enables a variety if financial strategies and tools (e.g. hedging) for all market participants.

you seem confused really. protecting shorters? we make shorting possible in the first place. if they get rekt by doing so is not my decision.




It can be used to dump which shakes confidence and weak hands follow that trend, it hurts the coin. Most people don't check to see whats being lent when they are watching a dump and panicking. I understand your only motive is profit so whatever. If you really wanted to help liquidity you wold put those coins on other exchanges and set up some trading bots.
sr. member
Activity: 453
Merit: 500
hello world
November 15, 2016, 01:03:04 PM
..
I can't get butthurt I have nothing but dust. I'm pissed that those loans protect shorters and hurt the ecosystem.

please explain how they hurt the ecosystem  in your view Huh

a healthy lending market does nothing but support the ecosystem, since it enables a variety if financial strategies and tools (e.g. hedging) for all market participants.

you seem confused really. protecting shorters? we make shorting possible in the first place. if they get rekt by doing so is not my decision.


legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
November 15, 2016, 12:04:31 PM

If we get 100 USD XMR we would be looking at a fundamentally very different situation from now since that would place the market capitalization of Monero at over 1.3 Billion USD with Monero in second place behind Bitcoin. That means for example the major Bitcoin / fiat exchanges, Bitcoin payment processors etc will no longer be able to ignore Monero.  



I must admit, I cannot see why other exchanges, given the volume Monero has in BTC on Polo, have not already listed Monero.

Is being 'truly private money' actually an issue for exchanges, or just the GUI - surely they would want the business? At some point they must take it on - but do we really have to wait until over a billion USD market cap for it to be a no-brainer?

The best reasons that I've heard is.

1) Its difficult to integrate. Jaxx (a wallet / exchange service) has apparently put like 80% of its effort into integrating Monero over the past month or something, and its still pending.

2) Even after integration, its hard to pull the volume from the main exchange. Case in point, bittrex lists monero, and a new one (https://tuxexchange.com/) even had a free monero giveaway to attract users.  So after all the effort of integration, there's no guarantee that your exchange will reap the same rewards as Poloniex.

So I think it does have to be a much larger market cap, perhaps.

I would postulate that there is low liquidity on those that have added it therefore other exchanges are not incentivized.


Code:
0.0449%	3623.63513249	2-3 Days
0.0450% 0.83741892 2 Days
0.0450% 16651.64981782 2-10 Days

I hope whoever this is gets their account hacked.

becasue you are not happy with the rate or what exactly is it that makes you feel anger regarding the liquidity providers ? (besides apparent buthurt)

its probably mine so i take your talk personal.


are the bad bad shorters going to dump it ?  Cry

I can't get butthurt I have nothing but dust. I'm pissed that those loans protect shorters and hurt the ecosystem.
full member
Activity: 234
Merit: 100
November 15, 2016, 11:39:10 AM
buy now or wait?
sr. member
Activity: 453
Merit: 500
hello world
November 15, 2016, 10:43:42 AM
Zcash + syscoin together.. real decentralized marketplace with real anon... how will xmr react? Stay tuned...

sounds promising im tuned  Roll Eyes

syscoin Grin
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
November 15, 2016, 10:38:06 AM
Zcash + syscoin together.. real decentralized marketplace with real anon... how will xmr react? Stay tuned...
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 2053
Free spirit
November 15, 2016, 09:00:59 AM
These 2 walls are closing in


full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
True Flip ICO: 28 of June 2017
November 15, 2016, 08:48:20 AM
The other good news are also BitcoinMeister is speaking about xmr.
Bear in mind, last time he became interested the price rose from 1 usd or so 14 usd or so.
If XMR does the same thing also this time, we should be looking at 100 usd XMR. But it is adviced to be cautious and not to go all in XMR.

Steady on, TC...

Anything is possible, but let's be sure we're out of the bear market first?   Breaking 0.012 and staying over it as a level needs to happen.  Then we can look at getting to $10 - but I don't think we will get anywhere close to even the ATH level until Spring (unless the GUI is out very soon, BTC stays flat or drifts and we are very lucky) let alone $100.

The GUI will encourage more people to buy, suck money off-exchange (leaving less for immediate sale) so a spike then is more likely but a real new climb to above the last ATH needs time and events conspiring for us. 

A steady XMR might prove better for adoption - and we need that base to build from.

So, maybe save your $100 predictions for now, please?

I used to avoid XMR and now I decided to have XMR in my portfolio. I bought some XMR and planning to hold them for a year or two and see how it's price is going to move. I think XMR will go north and I have also got into mining XMR in Eobot. I guess  CPU mining is out of luck now.
legendary
Activity: 2702
Merit: 2053
Free spirit
November 15, 2016, 08:27:30 AM

Also ,serious risk of being goxxed is a major factor in whether to trade small exchanges or not... You can never be sure the owner won't fake a hack job (bfx style)  and so to trade there the risks often outweigh the potential rewards...


So true, still smarting from my few btc lost at ShareX exit scam
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1000
Si vis pacem, para bellum
November 15, 2016, 08:09:27 AM

If we get 100 USD XMR we would be looking at a fundamentally very different situation from now since that would place the market capitalization of Monero at over 1.3 Billion USD with Monero in second place behind Bitcoin. That means for example the major Bitcoin / fiat exchanges, Bitcoin payment processors etc will no longer be able to ignore Monero.  



I must admit, I cannot see why other exchanges, given the volume Monero has in BTC on Polo, have not already listed Monero.

Is being 'truly private money' actually an issue for exchanges, or just the GUI - surely they would want the business? At some point they must take it on - but do we really have to wait until over a billion USD market cap for it to be a no-brainer?

The best reasons that I've heard is.

1) Its difficult to integrate. Jaxx (a wallet / exchange service) has apparently put like 80% of its effort into integrating Monero over the past month or something, and its still pending.

2) Even after integration, its hard to pull the volume from the main exchange. Case in point, bittrex lists monero, and a new one (https://tuxexchange.com/) even had a free monero giveaway to attract users.  So after all the effort of integration, there's no guarantee that your exchange will reap the same rewards as Poloniex.

So I think it does have to be a much larger market cap, perhaps.

For number 2 on your list I think I can view from experience..... People simply don't want to use the small obscure exchanges for lots of reasons....

They're is barely no liquidity for serious trade to be done by people who are playing with  $100k+ so the pool needs to be a few  millions deep already before the whales can swim....so you have a chicken and the egg problem

Also ,serious risk of being goxxed is a major factor in whether to trade small exchanges or not... You can never be sure the owner won't fake a hack job (bfx style)  and so to trade there the risks often outweigh the potential rewards...

Of course, these places are often based in areas where they are no laws in place or recourse for possible thefts etc and then you see why people tend to use the larger exchanges
legendary
Activity: 2604
Merit: 1748
November 15, 2016, 07:25:59 AM

If we get 100 USD XMR we would be looking at a fundamentally very different situation from now since that would place the market capitalization of Monero at over 1.3 Billion USD with Monero in second place behind Bitcoin. That means for example the major Bitcoin / fiat exchanges, Bitcoin payment processors etc will no longer be able to ignore Monero.  



I must admit, I cannot see why other exchanges, given the volume Monero has in BTC on Polo, have not already listed Monero.

Is being 'truly private money' actually an issue for exchanges, or just the GUI - surely they would want the business? At some point they must take it on - but do we really have to wait until over a billion USD market cap for it to be a no-brainer?

The best reasons that I've heard is.

1) Its difficult to integrate. Jaxx (a wallet / exchange service) has apparently put like 80% of its effort into integrating Monero over the past month or something, and its still pending.

2) Even after integration, its hard to pull the volume from the main exchange. Case in point, bittrex lists monero, and a new one (https://tuxexchange.com/) even had a free monero giveaway to attract users.  So after all the effort of integration, there's no guarantee that your exchange will reap the same rewards as Poloniex.

So I think it does have to be a much larger market cap, perhaps.

You're probably right, but I am not sure if it's so much of a problem if Bittrex managed. That said, it doesn't do nearly as much volume on most coins, so yes, it wouldn't steal Polo business away so easily.

I can understand Jaxx having issues with wallet integration given how long it's taking for us to get a GUI out there ourselves. 

Maybe it's just 'bigger' (fiat) exchanges don't see it as an imperative yet - but the volume has been huge at times like up to 5 million a day at the end of Aug/ early Sept - which is not to be sniffed at. 

I am not arguing with your points so much as hopeful we see another decent exchange before too long. Let's see if the GUI makes us look more mature - maybe then I will have my wish come true Wink
hero member
Activity: 768
Merit: 505
November 15, 2016, 07:10:26 AM

If we get 100 USD XMR we would be looking at a fundamentally very different situation from now since that would place the market capitalization of Monero at over 1.3 Billion USD with Monero in second place behind Bitcoin. That means for example the major Bitcoin / fiat exchanges, Bitcoin payment processors etc will no longer be able to ignore Monero.  



I must admit, I cannot see why other exchanges, given the volume Monero has in BTC on Polo, have not already listed Monero.

Is being 'truly private money' actually an issue for exchanges, or just the GUI - surely they would want the business? At some point they must take it on - but do we really have to wait until over a billion USD market cap for it to be a no-brainer?

The best reasons that I've heard is.

1) Its difficult to integrate. Jaxx (a wallet / exchange service) has apparently put like 80% of its effort into integrating Monero over the past month or something, and its still pending.

2) Even after integration, its hard to pull the volume from the main exchange. Case in point, bittrex lists monero, and a new one (https://tuxexchange.com/) even had a free monero giveaway to attract users.  So after all the effort of integration, there's no guarantee that your exchange will reap the same rewards as Poloniex.

So I think it does have to be a much larger market cap, perhaps.

Sure but i guess the only reason why Polo has such a massive % is that it allows the margin trading... and margin trading many coins, thats why you see the big volumes there... but there are also fiat exchanges that atleast offer margin for BTC... so maybe those could want a piece of the cake in the future
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