...
not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO
...
not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO
...
Topic: XMR vs DRK - page 68. (Read 69802 times)
dude, there is a darksend whitepaper which demonstrates how it works, the code was reviewed by K Atlas, plus people have been trying to break it (unsuccessfully) since it was launched.
citing my reply to icebreakers ridiculous signature as 'darkcoins proof' is equally ridiculous.
Also, I'd like to say that XMR has great anon, I'm not disputing that....
wow gmaxwell has spoken out against your project? i had no idea. gmaxwell is a legend. link?
I'll link it in my reply to majamina
Quote
not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO
Is there a reward for it? Either money or alternatively a bare knuckle fight with evan on neutral ground i.e. an irish pub would motivate a lot of people.
Quote
1) That comment is from today
really....perhaps you can link the comments, would be interesting to see in context.
Has he actually reviewed the code though?
Quote
2) Bitcoin HAS working micropayment channel implementations - that stuff always works on mainnet because no fork is needed; impulse.se for example specifies one (its from bitpay) and it has a bitcore addon.
not the same thing really though is it, as having instant TX built natively into the coin / wallet?
Quote
3) Spork is a 1:1 copy of Bitcoins system with the possibility to rollback like dictator - thats the only difference.
so it's the same except it's different?
Evan came up with x11 and it was absolutely revolutionary and as such has been widely used and cloned into x13 ,x15 ect
there has been no credible evidence presented that it is insecure in any way.
there has been no credible evidence presented that it is insecure in any way.
Chaining hashing algorithms is neither revolutionary nor clever.
When you chain hashing algorithms bad things happen: http://blog.ircmaxell.com/2015/03/security-issue-combining-bcrypt-with.html
To quote that blog: "The underlying problem is that combining cryptographic operators that weren't designed to be combined can be disastrous. Is it possible to do so safely? Yes. Is it a good idea to do it? No. This particular case is just one example where combining operations can be exceedingly dangerous. But the bottom line: never roll your own crypto. It can have fatal consequences."
So he designed something that is (unwittingly or knowingly) open to preimage attacks...and that's revolutionary?
Monero's proof:
Darkcoin's proof:
Monero has proof that the ring signatures are impossible to double-spend, are exculpable (ie. funds cannot be stolen by other members of a particular ring, including the "real" signatory), are unforgeable (cannot be faked), and are anonymous. Since you've made the accusation I won't take on the role of the common Darkcoin cultist and say "put up or shut up!", I'll instead show you what burden of proof means (and this is literally taken straight from the whitepaper) -
Proof of double-spend protection:
Proof of exculpability:
Proof of unforgeability:
Proof of anonymity:
The burden of proof is on Monero, and there is the proof. Now do the same for Darkcoin, please.
Proof of double-spend protection:
Proof of exculpability:
Proof of unforgeability:
Proof of anonymity:
The burden of proof is on Monero, and there is the proof. Now do the same for Darkcoin, please.
Darkcoin's proof:
...
not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO
...
not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO
...
Fixing the bloat "problem" isn't on our agenda right now. We can achieve linear reductions in blockchain size through various schemes, but none of them make a particularly large impact. If anything we will implement a lightweight wallet that uses a bloom-filter-like approach to tell full nodes which set of viewkeys its interested in, and then left those nodes do the heavy lifting. In fact, we can offer a lightweight pruned blockchain right now by only maintaining a limited set of blocks as well as the txoset and the key image set, which will give you a fully operational Monero node that needs less than 1/10th of the current blockchain space. That tooling is premature, though, as there are other priorities (eg. headers-first sync up) before we can focus on that.
How many full nodes there are currently? What is the incentive to run one? What if they are DDoS'ed?
Is the bolded part a problem for privacy?
It boggles my mind that Evan didn't design the protocol around micropayment channels, where every full node could be incentivised to mix transactions or vote on InstantX transactions or whatever. It would make the anonymity set so much larger.
Perhaps he thought it's better to make sybil attacks harder. It's basically free to launch as many full nodes as required.
Quote
- Darksend: a poor implementation of CoinJoin. To quote the actual inventor of CoinJoin (gmaxwell) on the topic of Darkcoin: "That other stuff was initially "hey this coinjoin stuff is great, we put it in an altcoin!" to which my result was "hey, idiots, the whole point of coinjoin was that it already worked in bitcoin. If you're talking about something incompatible there are much better approaches" ... and they've since gone off to do other things, but uh.. seemingly without a lot of thought in advance."
now I may have missed something - but my understanding is that gmaxwell made these rather bitter remarks, was subsequently invited to review the Darksend code, agreed to do that once it was open source but never actually did....so these outdated remarks are based on the 'idea' of darksend rather than the actual implementation. Hardly a persuasive piece of evidence to present against the current, working anon implementation in DRK.
Quote
- InstantX: a clone of the GreenAddress instant Bitcoin transaction system, or more accurately a clone of Natanael L's "Secure zero-confirmation payments using temporary notarized P2SH multi signature wallets".
Your point being? DRK has working instant transactions on mainnet. Other coins off the BTC codebase don't have this...
Quote
- Sporks: turns the Bitcoin alert key system into a remote kill switch that one person can use to disrupt the network at will. Awesome.
This is not a balanced or even credible representation of the Spork feature, as you well know.
1) That comment is from today
2) Bitcoin HAS working micropayment channel implementations - that stuff always works on mainnet because no fork is needed; impulse.se for example specifies one (its from bitpay) and it has a bitcore addon.
3) Spork is a 1:1 copy of Bitcoins system with the possibility to rollback like dictator - thats the only difference.
mydesktop was smooth afaik.
Thats why its missing from github search.
Thats why its missing from github search.
To all newbies:
This is how you know Monero is a scam - the dev's don't spend any time on developing and instead are trying to troll people to *convince* them to sell the competition and buy mooneros.
Just look at the github, once a month maybe they add a line of code or fix a word list, and they still don't have a GUI?
This is how you know Monero is a scam - the dev's don't spend any time on developing and instead are trying to troll people to *convince* them to sell the competition and buy mooneros.
Just look at the github, once a month maybe they add a line of code or fix a word list, and they still don't have a GUI?
[ ric->bitmonero ]$ git log --since=2014-03-25 --pretty=format:"%h commited on %ad by %an"
d728639 commited on Tue Mar 24 08:50:08 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
1c49d6b commited on Tue Mar 24 08:48:43 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
8855a32 commited on Tue Mar 24 02:46:48 2015 -0400 by Thomas Winget
51e3579 commited on Sun Mar 22 05:26:30 2015 -0400 by Thomas Winget
f78bb00 commited on Fri Mar 20 16:56:55 2015 -0400 by Thomas Winget
2b0583b commited on Fri Mar 20 16:40:54 2015 -0400 by Thomas Winget
178b009 commited on Tue Mar 10 10:20:19 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
7e72e94 commited on Fri Mar 6 02:38:06 2015 -0800 by smooth
8237705 commited on Thu Mar 5 10:56:46 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
41a95e7 commited on Thu Mar 5 00:45:54 2015 -0800 by smooth
754a785 commited on Wed Mar 4 23:35:04 2015 -0800 by smooth
c01069f commited on Wed Mar 4 15:31:24 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
10e4132 commited on Wed Mar 4 15:29:20 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
9dab105 commited on Sun Mar 1 03:36:46 2015 -0500 by Thomas Winget
52f9629 commited on Sun Mar 1 02:35:33 2015 -0500 by Thomas Winget
76289d0 commited on Thu Feb 5 07:21:14 2015 -0500 by Thomas Winget
1016712 commited on Sun Mar 1 00:03:57 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
98a4e6a commited on Sat Feb 28 23:34:30 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
7590f33 commited on Sat Feb 28 23:32:28 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
db53e19 commited on Thu Feb 5 05:38:49 2015 -0500 by Thomas Winget
96cbecf commited on Thu Feb 5 04:11:20 2015 -0500 by Thomas Winget
9193d6f commited on Thu Jan 29 17:10:53 2015 -0500 by Thomas Winget
e728992 commited on Fri Feb 20 00:59:47 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
7b01a07 commited on Fri Feb 20 00:57:26 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
6e5797d commited on Tue Feb 3 20:15:02 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
cbb0742 commited on Tue Feb 3 13:13:36 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
f103e0d commited on Tue Feb 3 13:05:28 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
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17d81f2 commited on Tue Jan 27 14:07:05 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
497a514 commited on Tue Jan 27 14:04:23 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
709bbc5 commited on Tue Jan 27 14:04:23 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
bd143e0 commited on Tue Jan 27 09:44:17 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
9b3673a commited on Tue Jan 27 09:43:15 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
de8a129 commited on Tue Jan 27 09:16:34 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
e70bc3d commited on Tue Jan 27 09:15:14 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
bd10324 commited on Tue Jan 27 09:08:09 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
2b3b70a commited on Tue Jan 27 09:05:47 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
bb85fea commited on Tue Jan 27 07:45:21 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
615079e commited on Mon Jan 26 23:19:53 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
9e0516c commited on Thu Jan 15 14:03:35 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
580e003 commited on Thu Jan 15 13:59:37 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
5149286 commited on Wed Jan 14 20:39:57 2015 -0500 by Thomas Winget
f74792b commited on Wed Jan 14 13:14:01 2015 -0800 by warptangent
23c3d38 commited on Sun Jan 11 15:49:07 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
24d500c commited on Sun Jan 11 11:06:35 2015 +0000 by moneromooo-monero
87839cd commited on Sat Jan 10 19:32:08 2015 +0000 by moneromooo-monero
24ddfa7 commited on Thu Jan 8 12:17:08 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
6600966 commited on Tue Jan 6 18:39:16 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
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54fbf2a commited on Fri Jan 2 18:54:22 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
f4b69d5 commited on Fri Jan 2 18:52:46 2015 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
1b46226 commited on Mon Dec 15 17:43:12 2014 -0500 by Thomas Winget
df53c0a commited on Mon Dec 15 17:28:11 2014 -0500 by Thomas Winget
4a53898 commited on Mon Dec 15 17:23:42 2014 -0500 by Thomas Winget
f4675dc commited on Sat Dec 13 13:52:27 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
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c1bf8fb commited on Sat Dec 13 13:51:39 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
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ac19084 commited on Wed Dec 10 20:04:08 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
d562085 commited on Sat Dec 13 13:45:57 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
583cf0a commited on Thu Dec 11 02:48:04 2014 -0800 by warptangent
95eb944 commited on Thu Dec 11 02:47:24 2014 -0800 by warptangent
b261448 commited on Wed Dec 10 20:04:08 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
d7aafd5 commited on Wed Dec 10 02:51:45 2014 -0800 by warptangent
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cfc8c55 commited on Sat Dec 6 06:58:33 2014 -0800 by warptangent
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efad735 commited on Mon Dec 8 22:55:28 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
ebb117c commited on Mon Dec 8 20:39:26 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
1925eef commited on Mon Dec 8 20:01:19 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
f9822c4 commited on Sat Dec 6 03:09:46 2014 -0800 by warptangent
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ab7c6c0 commited on Tue Nov 25 21:48:54 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
ce71c01 commited on Tue Nov 18 17:04:47 2014 -0500 by Ben Boeckel
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2b93288 commited on Thu Nov 6 22:11:39 2014 -0700 by Riccardo Spagni
d2287d3 commited on Mon Nov 3 14:35:48 2014 -0500 by Thomas Winget
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c696492 commited on Fri Oct 24 17:39:15 2014 -0400 by Ben Boeckel
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b032619 commited on Mon Oct 13 16:00:09 2014 -0400 by jebes
1795c38 commited on Wed Oct 8 21:38:55 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
b94b8cd commited on Wed Oct 8 00:44:26 2014 +0530 by Oran Juice
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bc537ac commited on Tue Oct 7 00:44:44 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
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b419075 commited on Tue Oct 7 00:08:47 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
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28dfb4b commited on Mon Oct 6 17:44:23 2014 -0400 by David G. Andersen
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e4fb913 commited on Mon Oct 6 10:15:21 2014 -0400 by David G. Andersen
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3a0b00a commited on Mon Oct 6 15:40:01 2014 +0200 by Riccardo Spagni
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3e6b6ba commited on Thu Oct 2 22:36:02 2014 +0530 by Oran Juice
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3bc16dc commited on Sun Jun 15 09:48:13 2014 +0200 by fluffypony
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9682a15 commited on Wed Apr 9 13:14:35 2014 +0100 by Antonio Juarez
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(You'll notice that even vertoe contributed to Monero development;) )
This excludes the blockchainDB branch on tewinget's fork, the 0MQ and http-server and smart-mining branches on oranjuice's fork, the QoS branch on rfreeman's fork, and is only representative of what has made it to staging.
659 commits in the past year = ~55 commits a month, 1.8 commits a day.
The code is high quality and easily understood by others - see Kristov Atlas review.
That's why exploits were found by an amateur coder within a few days after the code was released as open source.
Why did Atlas miss them?
the exploits were in masternode payment scheme weren't they? I don't think atlas reviewed that part....he was looking at the darksend code...maybe i'm wrong...
Quote
- Darksend: a poor implementation of CoinJoin. To quote the actual inventor of CoinJoin (gmaxwell) on the topic of Darkcoin: "That other stuff was initially "hey this coinjoin stuff is great, we put it in an altcoin!" to which my result was "hey, idiots, the whole point of coinjoin was that it already worked in bitcoin. If you're talking about something incompatible there are much better approaches" ... and they've since gone off to do other things, but uh.. seemingly without a lot of thought in advance."
now I may have missed something - but my understanding is that gmaxwell made these rather bitter remarks, was subsequently invited to review the Darksend code, agreed to do that once it was open source but never actually did....so these outdated remarks are based on the 'idea' of darksend rather than the actual implementation. Hardly a persuasive piece of evidence to present against the current, working anon implementation in DRK.
Quote
- InstantX: a clone of the GreenAddress instant Bitcoin transaction system, or more accurately a clone of Natanael L's "Secure zero-confirmation payments using temporary notarized P2SH multi signature wallets".
Your point being? DRK has working instant transactions on mainnet. Other coins off the BTC codebase don't have this...
Quote
- Sporks: turns the Bitcoin alert key system into a remote kill switch that one person can use to disrupt the network at will. Awesome.
This is not a balanced or even credible representation of the Spork feature, as you well know.
The code is high quality and easily understood by others - see Kristov Atlas review.
That's why exploits were found by an amateur coder within a few days after the code was released as open source.
Why did Atlas miss them?
Just to be transparent:
I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.
I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.
Staff usually won't delete posts unless reported.
As I warned you, the Darkheads don't want too see an open, moderated, intelligent, and honest XMR VS DRK debate, so they reported it.
broken anon - not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO
wow gmaxwell has spoken out against your project? i had no idea. gmaxwell is a legend. link?
Just to be transparent:
I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.
I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.
Staff usually won't delete posts unless reported.
You should appeal to the forum mods.
It was reported, most likely by a large number of DRK supporters, which is probably why it got deleted without fair consideration, but it is certainly not off topic to DRK and should not be deleted on that thread.
[DOMINATION POST]
Wow. I think I need a cigarette after voyeuristically watching that exquisitely deep fucking of Darkcoin.
Just to be transparent:
I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.
I posted the exact same message about this OP in both the Official Dark/Dash OP and Official Monero OP. The one in the Dark/Dash OP was deleted by bitcointalk staff.
Staff usually won't delete posts unless reported.
As I warned you, the Darkheads don't want too see an open, moderated, intelligent, and honest XMR VS DRK debate, so they reported it.
happy to debate openly, let's check the BS points in your sig:
instamine - yawn, yes we know, a bunch of coins were mined early. who gives a fuck? not anyone who's investing if you check the charts.
broken anon - not a single darksend TX has been traced, no matter what gmaxwell or anyone else might say. Trace one or GTFO
ponzy/HYIP - you either don't know what these are, or are just talking shit. Demonstrate, with supporting calculations, how DRK is a HYIP/ponzi or GTFO.
broken maternodes - masternodes run rock-solid, on low-cost VPS, getting paid like fucking clockwork, providing all the services they're supposed to. Demonstrate otherwise or GTFO.
trusted 3rd parties - BS, the only trust is on miners and masternode owners. Miners are trad POW just like BTC, masternode ownership is more distributed than mining (no pools).
stolen name - BS...Dashcoin was a dead project, their dev happily sold the github to DRK so it could use the name. Whining from bagholders of a dead coin doesn't change the facts.
busfactor=1 - BS....DRK/DASH is open source, other devs are involved. Evan under a bus would hurt the coin for sure, like any coin that lost it's lead dev, but there is enough momentum and market cap for others to take over and run with the project. The code is high quality and easily understood by others - see Kristov Atlas review.
no fundamentals - BS, DRK has the strongest fundamentals of any alt hence the market cap and positive trend.
Aren't most of Darkcoin's MasterNodes running on Amazon servers?
http://www.zdnet.com/article/amazon-dot-com-the-tech-master-of-secrecy/
http://www.zdnet.com/article/amazon-dot-com-the-tech-master-of-secrecy/
The way I see it there is no completely perfect solution to the problem of how to handle decentralised trustless value transfer systems.
Nobody's claiming they have a perfect system.
On one hand you have XMR and all the other countless cryptonote clone coins which while an interesting experiment into anonymity have proven over the last year or so to be unworkable as mass adoption value transfer systems.
By "countless" you mean 23, most of which have been abandoned?
the main stumbling blocks of the Cryptonote clones is is the blockchain bloat that completely rules out mass adoption. if XMR had BTC levels of usage the blockchain bloat would render it unusable overnight.
How many BTC users do you know that run a full node? Do *you* run a full node? No, you use Electrum or BreadWallet or Blockchain.info. Why would Monero be any different? Why would it be "unusable overnight" for all of the MyMonero.com users?
The second problem is that the ring signatures are exploitable under certain circumstances so the likelihood of serious development taking place to find a solution to the bloat issue is severely reduced.
Ring signatures are not "exploitable" on any level under the random oracle model. Given the level we're having this conversation on it's clear you aren't knowledgeable enough about cryptography to grok this, but I'll say it anyway: Monero has proof that the ring signatures are impossible to double-spend, are exculpable (ie. funds cannot be stolen by other members of a particular ring, including the "real" signatory), are unforgeable (cannot be faked), and are anonymous. Since you've made the accusation I won't take on the role of the common Darkcoin cultist and say "put up or shut up!", I'll instead show you what burden of proof means (and this is literally taken straight from the whitepaper) -
Proof of double-spend protection:
Proof of exculpability:
Proof of unforgeability:
Proof of anonymity:
The burden of proof is on Monero, and there is the proof. Now do the same for Darkcoin, please.
Why would any professional developer spend the required time to fix the bloat issue if there are other fundamental issues regarding the anonymity provided by the ring signature system?
Fixing the bloat "problem" isn't on our agenda right now. We can achieve linear reductions in blockchain size through various schemes, but none of them make a particularly large impact. If anything we will implement a lightweight wallet that uses a bloom-filter-like approach to tell full nodes which set of viewkeys its interested in, and then left those nodes do the heavy lifting. In fact, we can offer a lightweight pruned blockchain right now by only maintaining a limited set of blocks as well as the txoset and the key image set, which will give you a fully operational Monero node that needs less than 1/10th of the current blockchain space. That tooling is premature, though, as there are other priorities (eg. headers-first sync up) before we can focus on that.
the final nail in the coffin for mass adoption of cryptonote derived coins is the fact that merchant adoption is hampered significantly by the fact that the API is incompatible with platforms developed for BTC, this means that to implement XMR payments a whole new payment platform would have to developed and tested which a huge an potentially disastrous proposition.
Same goes for Ripple, and they seem to be doing just fine without BTC compatibility. Also you'd do well to check the Merchant Additions section of our Design and Development Goals: https://getmonero.org/design-goals/ - you'll notice something just for you.
DRK/DASH on the other hand has none of the above issues and has the huge benefit of the 2 tier masternode system which is already nearly a year old and provides Instant transactions world leading levels of anonimization and the potential to support future services.
Bitcoin already has a 2-tier system: full nodes, and SPV clients. Even better: full nodes can do anything MasterNodes do, and they can be incentivised through micropayment channels. A choice quote from that blog post is: "If we’re going to have a free market for services between nodes on the Bitcoin P2P network, we need a mechanism via which the nodes can pay each other. This mechanism exists in Bitcoin now, and it’s called micropayment channels. Any two nodes can connect and they have this mechanism via which, if they can agree on who owes what to whom, they can construct a payment and they can adjust that payment as rapidly as they need to and settle it infrequently on the Bitcoin block chain."
It boggles my mind that Evan didn't design the protocol around micropayment channels, where every full node could be incentivised to mix transactions or vote on InstantX transactions or whatever. It would make the anonymity set so much larger.
here is an over view of the utterly unique revolutionary DRK value transfer system.
It's easy to bander the term "unique" around until you sit down and think about it:
- Darksend: a poor implementation of CoinJoin. To quote the actual inventor of CoinJoin (gmaxwell) on the topic of Darkcoin: "That other stuff was initially "hey this coinjoin stuff is great, we put it in an altcoin!" to which my result was "hey, idiots, the whole point of coinjoin was that it already worked in bitcoin. If you're talking about something incompatible there are much better approaches" ... and they've since gone off to do other things, but uh.. seemingly without a lot of thought in advance."
- InstantX: a clone of the GreenAddress instant Bitcoin transaction system, or more accurately a clone of Natanael L's "Secure zero-confirmation payments using temporary notarized P2SH multi signature wallets".
- Sporks: turns the Bitcoin alert key system into a remote kill switch that one person can use to disrupt the network at will. Awesome.
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