YOBIT SCAM: x10 Banner Promoters Will Be Tagged For Promoting a Ponzi Scheme - page 4.

Lauda

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on January 28, 2020, 10:59:12 AM

Quote

your opinion can be bought for pocket change.

If I know I would never scam anyone and I'm tagged as a scammer, what is it left for me to believe other than thinking the policy is wrong?

Negative trust rating requirement =/= being a scammer. You don't understand the system properly and I kinda think that you never did (which is fine as it includes the super-majority of the users) and we're discussing something that shouldn't be discussed here. Additionally, there's no policy. Anyone could tag you for being a scammer, even when you're in-fact not a scammer; right this second and we couldn't prevent it. We can only take reactive measures (to alleviate improper tags).
Furthermore, there are various perspectives that properly argue that e.g. advertising a scam makes you complicit i.e. a scammer yourself even if there's no malicious intent. We can go into many discussions pertaining to semantics and viewpoints, but this just wastes time (right now, and in this thread - start another).

This whole ordeal has been handled were poorly, to the point that Yobit managed to advertise their "scamBox" for >1 month up to the point that they shut it down, not us. We have failed this time, just failed. This is what the focus should be not who got labeled how in the crossfire or the semantics behind stated words et. al.

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I didn't want to engage in more discussion about this, but I wanted to react to misinterpretation of Techshares words.

Quote from: suchmoon on January 28, 2020, 10:44:36 AM

Quote from: iluvbitcoins on January 28, 2020, 10:30:12 AM

If someone thinks mixers exist to launder money for scammers he's righteous to red tag people wearing their signatures.

If you don't see a difference between something that exists with the sole purpose of scamming (X10/investbox) and something that may be used by scammers (mixing) then there is no limit to absurdity you can push this argument to.

Who said there's no difference between them and who said YoBit isn't a scam?

Someone here used non sequitur, which is pretty much what's happening here.
His point wasn't that Yobit isn't a scam, nor that ChipMixer is a scam.
His point was if you label someone a scammer based on your opinion, it will inevtibaly lead to degradation of the Trust system.
Tagging the website owner if there's proof is legitimate. Tagging random user who participated in their signature campaign isn't.
I believe that's his point. Not saying YoBit isn't a scam or that ChipMixer is a scam.

Quote

your opinion can be bought for pocket change.

If I know I would never scam anyone and I'm tagged as a scammer, what is it left for me to believe other than thinking the policy is wrong?

Lauda

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Quote from: suchmoon on January 28, 2020, 10:44:36 AM

Quote from: iluvbitcoins on January 28, 2020, 10:30:12 AM

If someone thinks mixers exist to launder money for scammers he's righteous to red tag people wearing their signatures.

If you don't see a difference between something that exists with the sole purpose of scamming (X10/investbox) and something that may be used by scammers (mixing) then there is no limit to absurdity you can push this argument to.

I actually can't believe that we are still having this discussion. It's not like you could argue that there's no mens rea or anything.. Undecided

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on January 28, 2020, 10:30:12 AM

If someone thinks mixers exist to launder money for scammers he's righteous to red tag people wearing their signatures.

If you don't see a difference between something that exists with the sole purpose of scamming (X10/investbox) and something that may be used by scammers (mixing) then there is no limit to absurdity you can push this argument to.

Lauda

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Terminated.

I think that if this continues, anyone whose financially-motivated opinion is/was that "Yobit isn't a scam" will need to be tagged. By continuing this path, you are not proving that you a free-thinkers or rational - Quite the contrary, you're proving that you are very easily manipulated, and your opinion can be bought for pocket change. Whether you want to admit this to yourself or not is not of my concern (or any other rational member's opinion).

The nonsensical "whataboutism" drawing to mixers and the advertising of gambling services (hello me) deserve even more condemning than the people above. You do not get to justify advertising a scam just because somebody may be advertising something else, or some other type of scam (even if it is a bigger scam than the scam that you're advertising!).

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Quote

Non sequitur. You fail at analogies. The proposition that some criminals may abuse a good service, just as criminals abuse the Internet itself (thanks, o_e_l_e_o), has no logical similarity to the proposition that a service actively cheating its own users is a scam.

The base of his argument was that it was an opinion.
You believe YoBit is a scam because their coin won't have value and tag people who wear their signatures.
If someone thinks mixers exist to launder money for scammers he's righteous to red tag people wearing their signatures.
You can disagree the same as we do now.
If you can tag based on your opinion, why can't everyone?
Trade isn't an opinion.
You either scam someone, or you don't.

JollyGood

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And there you go, you summed it up much better than I ever could.

The notion that any criminal could misuse a bonafide service cannot and should not be compared with an out-and-out scam that was designed with the specific purpose to make the owners of the not-so bonafide service wealthy while hiding behind nonsensical jargon in an attempt to deflect from potential lawsuits.

Quote from: nullius on January 27, 2020, 05:33:24 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

To be honest, for me, talking not even hours, but days, about that coinmixer is mixing coins for criminals is absurd, because we all know that criminals use it.

Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

He makes a very good point that strikes at the heart of this issue. The conclusion that Yobit is a scam is an OPINION. There may be supporting evidence, but that is besides the point.

Non sequitur. You fail at analogies. The proposition that some criminals may abuse a good service, just as criminals abuse the Internet itself (thanks, o_e_l_e_o), has no logical similarity to the proposition that a service actively cheating its own users is a scam.

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Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

He makes a very good point that strikes at the heart of this issue. The conclusion that Yobit is a scam is an OPINION. There may be supporting evidence, but that is besides the point. You and others have opened the door to justifying for tagging users who support projects which in the taggers OPINION is a scam. This is the can of worms you people open up with these kinds of frivolous and overbearing tags. Even if it is a proven fact, you are still acting on guilt via association, which is the bread and butter of any kangaroo justice system.

This is why myself and others have been arguing against tagging users for their signatures very fervently, because there is NO WAY to universally and reliably enforce this rule, meaning it is GUARANTEED to be enforced arbitrarily. At the end of the day, what does any of this excessive tagging behavior accomplish? Absolutely nothing, except for destroying users reputations, and causing tons and tons of disputes of course. Yobit lives on, your abuse of the user base doesn't change that.

Congratulations for the great comment!

TECSHARE

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Quote from: nullius on January 27, 2020, 05:33:24 PM

Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

He makes a very good point that strikes at the heart of this issue. The conclusion that Yobit is a scam is an OPINION. There may be supporting evidence, but that is besides the point.

Non sequitur. You fail at analogies. The proposition that some criminals may abuse a good service, just as criminals abuse the Internet itself (thanks, o_e_l_e_o), has no logical similarity to the proposition that a service actively cheating its own users is a scam.

(Plus what o_e_l_e_o said.)

What analogy? Uh, no, actual sequitur. You are in fact using guilt via association. Additionally, as I already stated this application of negative ratings can only be applied in a completely arbitrary fashion by its very nature, thus this should be left out of the trust system. The only result of this kind of mass spamming of ratings will be to cause people to ignore negative ratings as common. It will stop nothing and have many negative consequences.

nullius

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Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:19:22 PM

In opinion of many people coin mixers are very bad tool that help very bad people. I belive that you trust in service that you advertise, but can you be sure it doesn't help criminals?

So, Chipmixer is being unjustifiably smeared in favour of Yobit by an account with negative trust feedback from nutildah, bL4nkcode, Lauda, ibminer (twice!), and yahoo62278. (Sorry, yahoo: You sleep with curs, you wake up with fleas.)

Why am I not surprised?

N.b. that it is apparently a stolen/sold/hacked account with many scam accusations; and it is a “Legendary” account that, prior to this post, had exactly one earned merit received earlier today, for a post that is now deleted. TECSHARE just doubled this account’s earned merit.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 27, 2020, 04:22:11 PM

In the opinion of many people, ~~the internet~~, ~~VPNs~~, ~~Tor~~, ~~cash~~, ~~bitcoin~~, ~~encryption~~, privacy is a very bad thing that helps very bad people.

Please read this post, and my reply to it, for why this argument is complete nonsense: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-i-am-temporarily-wearing-an-unpaid-unsolicited-chipmixer-signature-ad-5214200

Indeed, it is the reason why I am currently advertising ChipMixer for free, on principle!

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

To be honest, for me, talking not even hours, but days, about that coinmixer is mixing coins for criminals is absurd, because we all know that criminals use it.

Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

He makes a very good point that strikes at the heart of this issue. The conclusion that Yobit is a scam is an OPINION. There may be supporting evidence, but that is besides the point.

Non sequitur. You fail at analogies. The proposition that some criminals may abuse a good service, just as criminals abuse the Internet itself (thanks, o_e_l_e_o), has no logical similarity to the proposition that a service actively cheating its own users is a scam.

(Plus what o_e_l_e_o said.)

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

The conclusion that Yobit is a scam is an OPINION. There may be supporting evidence, but that is besides the point.

A position overwhelmingly supported by evidence is a fact.

Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

You and others have opened the door to justifying for tagging users who support projects which in the taggers OPINION is a scam.

Please quote where I have advocated for tagging these users.

Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

This is the can of worms you people open up with these kinds of frivolous and overbearing tags.

Please quote where I have left tags for any of these users.

Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

Even if it is a proven fact, you are still acting on guilt via association, which is the bread and butter of any kangaroo justice system.

Guilt via association would be accusing people who use YoBit because of the X10 scam. Making a decision to promote a scam, and taking steps to display their signature and post it all over the forum, is a conscious choice.

Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

This is why myself and others have been arguing against tagging users for their signatures very fervently, because there is NO WAY to universally and reliably enforce this rule, meaning it is GUARANTEED to be enforced arbitrarily.

I tend to agree with this. The vast majority of altcoins are scams, and there are thousands of users who wear their signatures.

Quote from: TECSHARE on January 27, 2020, 05:07:06 PM

Yobit lives on, your abuse of the user base doesn't change that.

Please quote where I have abused the user base.

TECSHARE

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 27, 2020, 04:51:54 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

To be honest, for me, talking not even hours, but days, about that coinmixer is mixing coins for criminals is absurd, because we all know that criminals use it.

And we all know that criminals use the internet. Your point?

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

X10 it is shitcoin created for pump and dump and nothing more.

Except it isn't a coin at all. It can't be deposited or withdrawn. It can't be spent. It doesn't have any wallets. It doesn't have a blockchain. It exists only within YoBit.

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

And it is not a scam.

It categorically is, and no sane person can seriously argue otherwise. See my post here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53650350

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

Cryptocurrencies were created to give us financial freedom and if someone wants to invest in such risky shitcoins then let them do it.

It's not a coin and it's not an investment. It's a scam.

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

If he is so stupid that he does not understand how it works, then either let him go and learn, or this is not the place for him.

You will never convince me that it is ethical to promote a proven scam under the proviso of "Do your own research".

He makes a very good point that strikes at the heart of this issue. The conclusion that Yobit is a scam is an OPINION. There may be supporting evidence, but that is besides the point. You and others have opened the door to justifying for tagging users who support projects which in the taggers OPINION is a scam. This is the can of worms you people open up with these kinds of frivolous and overbearing tags. Even if it is a proven fact, you are still acting on guilt via association, which is the bread and butter of any kangaroo justice system.

This is why myself and others have been arguing against tagging users for their signatures very fervently, because there is NO WAY to universally and reliably enforce this rule, meaning it is GUARANTEED to be enforced arbitrarily. At the end of the day, what does any of this excessive tagging behavior accomplish? Absolutely nothing, except for destroying users reputations, and causing tons and tons of disputes of course. Yobit lives on, your abuse of the user base doesn't change that.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

To be honest, for me, talking not even hours, but days, about that coinmixer is mixing coins for criminals is absurd, because we all know that criminals use it.

And we all know that criminals use the internet. Your point?

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

X10 it is shitcoin created for pump and dump and nothing more.

Except it isn't a coin at all. It can't be deposited or withdrawn. It can't be spent. It doesn't have any wallets. It doesn't have a blockchain. It exists only within YoBit.

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

And it is not a scam.

It categorically is, and no sane person can seriously argue otherwise. See my post here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53650350

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

Cryptocurrencies were created to give us financial freedom and if someone wants to invest in such risky shitcoins then let them do it.

It's not a coin and it's not an investment. It's a scam.

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 PM

If he is so stupid that he does not understand how it works, then either let him go and learn, or this is not the place for him.

You will never convince me that it is ethical to promote a proven scam under the proviso of "Do your own research".

Erdogan

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on January 27, 2020, 04:22:11 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:19:22 PM

In opinion of many people coin mixers are very bad tool that help very bad people. I belive that you trust in service that you advertise, but can you be sure it doesn't help criminals?

In the opinion of many people, ~~the internet~~, ~~VPNs~~, ~~Tor~~, ~~cash~~, ~~bitcoin~~, ~~encryption~~, privacy is a very bad thing that helps very bad people.

Please read this post, and my reply to it, for why this argument is complete nonsense: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-i-am-temporarily-wearing-an-unpaid-unsolicited-chipmixer-signature-ad-5214200

To be honest, for me, talking not even hours, but days, about that coinmixer is mixing coins for criminals is absurd, because we all know that criminals use it.
Same situation is talking about pump and dump shitcoin like X10. We all know that most coins was made for pump and dump but hate is focused on X10 because it shows more clearly all system and it is more understandable to those who do not understand investment tools of banksters.
X10 it is shitcoin created for pump and dump and nothing more. It is free market, that makes, that after some time 10% daily interest make dump of coins on market. And it is not a scam. Only idiots invest in such risky business.
Cryptocurrencies were created to give us financial freedom and if someone wants to invest in such risky shitcoins then let them do it. If he is so stupid that he does not understand how it works, then either let him go and learn, or this is not the place for him.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Erdogan on January 27, 2020, 04:19:22 PM

In opinion of many people coin mixers are very bad tool that help very bad people. I belive that you trust in service that you advertise, but can you be sure it doesn't help criminals?

In the opinion of many people, ~~the internet~~, ~~VPNs~~, ~~Tor~~, ~~cash~~, ~~bitcoin~~, ~~encryption~~, privacy is a very bad thing that helps very bad people.

Please read this post, and my reply to it, for why this argument is complete nonsense: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-i-am-temporarily-wearing-an-unpaid-unsolicited-chipmixer-signature-ad-5214200

Erdogan

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Quote from: LoyceV on January 27, 2020, 11:21:49 AM

Quote from: iluvbitcoins on January 27, 2020, 10:53:28 AM

It's the vistors that decide which ads they open and which products they purchase.
Not those that sell advertisement space.

I guess I have higher standards: I don't advertise anything I don't trust.

Legally, you're probably right though. Google has been earning money having phishing sites advertise on their search results for many years, and reporting the ads doesn't mean they get removed so it's intentional.

In opinion of many people coin mixers are very bad tool that help very bad people. I belive that you trust in service that you advertise, but can you be sure it doesn't help criminals?

Lauda

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on January 27, 2020, 11:46:53 AM

This is probably the most well-intended post in this thread.
Stands like this can easily result in account destruction.
-snip-
I will retreat now for my own good.

That was the whole point of PM-ing users! It was for their own good, certainly not the good of the sender or people spending their time advocating for this. I would leave no ratings on you (assuming you didn't retaliate against anyone which I didn't look into). Thank you, it makes doing good much easier!

iluvbitcoins

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Quote from: Lauda on January 27, 2020, 11:25:05 AM

Quote from: iluvbitcoins on January 27, 2020, 10:53:28 AM

*has sent a PM
That's all I wanted to post.
This sort of self righteous bullying all over the forum needs to stop.

Wrong. I was advised to take a uniform approach (before the existence of this thread and me knowing the user list) and tag everyone instantly after sending out the PM, i.e. not even be generous as Jolly was with the 24 hours. People who removed their signatures would have their tag removed, those that didn't were implicitly acknolwedging awareness of the situation and admitting they condone advertising for scams (thus their own actions or well inaction makes them inherently untrustworthy and worthy of the tag).

iluvbitcoins please stop arguing the advertising a ponzi scam (i.e. helping people get scammed) is sensible or otherwise you'll find yourself on autopilot to self-destruction of your own account. You can thank me later.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 27, 2020, 11:21:49 AM

Legally, you're probably right though. Google has been earning money having phishing sites advertise on their search results for many years, and reporting the ads doesn't mean they get removed so it's intentional.

How about we don't waste time what a broken justice system thinks should imprison regular citizen and not the lawmaker, and actually focus on the distinction between good and evil whereas Yobit is a pure display of of the latter?

This is probably the most well-intended post in this thread.
Stands like this can easily result in account destruction.

I will admit I am taking a more defensive stand than I usually would.
I am very much against ponzies, I have written extensive posts on this forum about the pension plan which is clearly a ponzi and where so many young people are going to lose their money. This isn't a ponzi, it's an inflationary coin (like our FIAT, except this one is voluntary) and for that reason I have removed the signature.

I didn't research into YoBit at all because I have believed it's not my job to do so for reasons I outlined above.
If I thought they were a scam I would have removed the signature much earlier. I didn't.
I will retreat now for my own good.

Lauda

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on January 27, 2020, 10:53:28 AM

*has sent a PM
That's all I wanted to post.
This sort of self righteous bullying all over the forum needs to stop.

Wrong. I was advised to take a uniform approach (before the existence of this thread and me knowing the user list) and tag everyone instantly after sending out the PM, i.e. not even be generous as Jolly was with the 24 hours. People who removed their signatures would have their tag removed, those that didn't were implicitly acknolwedging awareness of the situation and admitting they condone advertising for scams (thus their own actions or well inaction makes them inherently untrustworthy and worthy of the tag).

iluvbitcoins please stop arguing the advertising a ponzi scam (i.e. helping people get scammed) is sensible or otherwise you'll find yourself on autopilot to self-destruction of your own account. You can thank me later.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 27, 2020, 11:21:49 AM

Legally, you're probably right though. Google has been earning money having phishing sites advertise on their search results for many years, and reporting the ads doesn't mean they get removed so it's intentional.

How about we don't waste time what a broken justice system thinks should imprison regular citizen and not the lawmaker, and actually focus on the distinction between good and evil whereas Yobit is a pure display of of the latter?

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Quote from: iluvbitcoins on January 27, 2020, 10:53:28 AM

It's the vistors that decide which ads they open and which products they purchase.
Not those that sell advertisement space.

I guess I have higher standards: I don't advertise anything I don't trust.

Legally, you're probably right though. Google has been earning money having phishing sites advertise on their search results for many years, and reporting the ads doesn't mean they get removed so it's intentional.

Topic: YOBIT SCAM: x10 Banner Promoters Will Be Tagged For Promoting a Ponzi Scheme - page 4. (Read 2413 times)