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Bitinvestor

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Quote from: niko on January 15, 2013, 12:22:27 PM

Luke-Jr and regular, I see your point, but I disagree. I never considered pre-ordering ASICs, simply because it didn't seem to me like BFL or bASIC had the experience and ability to give it a try without much risk. Previously delivered FPGAs were a weekend hobby compared to the scope of delivering an ASIC. This involves serious engineering, know-how, project management, accounting and customer service, outsourcing, coding. There was no way the likes of Inaba and Sony had what it takes to deliver within a reasonable time frame. In fact, I don't do business with those sorts of characters, even if they delivered i the past. There was no way Tom had what it takes (for different reasons). Not sure about the Avalon and BitFountain teams - at least they each seem to have a team.

Ah, yes. Hindsight is a beautiful thing. Where were you when those projects got started? I don't remember you saying those things BEFORE they were obvious.

niko

hero member

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There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.

Luke-Jr and regular, I see your point, but I disagree. I never considered pre-ordering ASICs, simply because it didn't seem to me like BFL or bASIC had the experience and ability to give it a try without much risk. Previously delivered FPGAs were a weekend hobby compared to the scope of delivering an ASIC. This involves serious engineering, know-how, project management, accounting and customer service, outsourcing, coding. There was no way the likes of Inaba and Sony had what it takes to deliver within a reasonable time frame. In fact, I don't do business with those sorts of characters, even if they delivered i the past. There was no way Tom had what it takes (for different reasons). Not sure about the Avalon and BitFountain teams - at least they each seem to have a team.

Trance104

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Typical BTC drama. I had a preorder with him too.

What a shame.

regular

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Merit: 250

Quote from: niko on January 15, 2013, 10:47:18 AM

Quote from: regular on January 15, 2013, 09:41:24 AM

got my chargeback today too.

Until BTC has more protection for buyers, I don't see myself ever buying any big-ticket items with them in the future. It seems scams are just too easy.

Ah, the lost art of due diligence... You don't need "more protection" - you can protect yourself by treating bitcoins much like you treat cash. You wouldn't just go to a strange neighborhood and hand a couple of thousands of dollars to a hand sticking out from a hole in the wall, the wall having a spray-painted advertisement "will build and deliver advanced, customized, integrated circuits"...? Or would you?

Paying cash to the likes of Sony and Tom - even ngzhang and friedcat, who so far appear much more credible - based solely on the promise to develop and deliver a rather complex product.

The best way to protect yourself when paying cash and cash-like bitcoins is to do research. Get to know the project, get to know the people. Are they trustworthy? Are they competent? Are there any red flags? Alternatively, just pay a nanny (credit card company) to take care of you: she will gladly do it for a fee. If you are smart, you won't even be paying the fee - they'll find less-then-smart customers to cover it for you.

No matter how much due diligence you do, there has to be some risk involved. Pretty much all three of the ASIC vendors BFL, BTCFPGA, and Avalon all have or had decent reputation at delivering a previous product. There is no way you can tell me there was obvious fraud going on with any of them early on.

Until there is more consumer protection, I don't think bitcoins will achieve enough usage as it is hard to not have the "nanny" protection when shopping online. It seems like anyone can create a good persona online for a while, but past achievement does not always indicate future performance.

Luke-Jr

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Quote from: niko on January 15, 2013, 10:47:18 AM

Quote from: regular on January 15, 2013, 09:41:24 AM

got my chargeback today too.

Until BTC has more protection for buyers, I don't see myself ever buying any big-ticket items with them in the future. It seems scams are just too easy.

Ah, the lost art of due diligence... You don't need "more protection" - you can protect yourself by treating bitcoins much like you treat cash. You wouldn't just go to a strange neighborhood and hand a couple of thousands of dollars to a hand sticking out from a hole in the wall, the wall having a spray-painted advertisement "will build and deliver advanced, customized, integrated circuits"...? Or would you?

Paying cash to the likes of Sony and Tom - even ngzhang and friedcat, who so far appear much more credible - based solely on the promise to develop and deliver a rather complex product.

The best way to protect yourself when paying cash and cash-like bitcoins is to do research. Get to know the project, get to know the people. Are they trustworthy? Are they competent? Are there any red flags? Alternatively, just pay a nanny (credit card company) to take care of you: she will gladly do it for a fee. If you are smart, you won't even be paying the fee - they'll find less-then-smart customers to cover it for you.

While I agree friedcat seems credible, everyone else do as well - and have delivered on FPGA products. While I was skeptical of BFL back in 2010, 2 years later I see no reason not to trust Sonny or anyone else there. I've known Tom since before he started BTCFPGA, and likewise trust him to do his best to deliver - and make good on refunds if he can't. Not much personal connection with ngzhang, but his Icarus works okay and he definitely seems to be into Bitcoin hardware for the long haul. I can't say I really see any reason for your graffiti analogy: the ASIC vendors are all basically trustworthy.

P.S. I have no reason to doubt Tycho/Deepbit either.

niko

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 501

There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.

Quote from: regular on January 15, 2013, 09:41:24 AM

got my chargeback today too.

Until BTC has more protection for buyers, I don't see myself ever buying any big-ticket items with them in the future. It seems scams are just too easy.

Ah, the lost art of due diligence... You don't need "more protection" - you can protect yourself by treating bitcoins much like you treat cash. You wouldn't just go to a strange neighborhood and hand a couple of thousands of dollars to a hand sticking out from a hole in the wall, the wall having a spray-painted advertisement "will build and deliver advanced, customized, integrated circuits"...? Or would you?

Paying cash to the likes of Sony and Tom - even ngzhang and friedcat, who so far appear much more credible - based solely on the promise to develop and deliver a rather complex product.

The best way to protect yourself when paying cash and cash-like bitcoins is to do research. Get to know the project, get to know the people. Are they trustworthy? Are they competent? Are there any red flags? Alternatively, just pay a nanny (credit card company) to take care of you: she will gladly do it for a fee. If you are smart, you won't even be paying the fee - they'll find less-then-smart customers to cover it for you.

Littleshop

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Quote from: el_rlee on January 15, 2013, 07:02:32 AM

Quote from: Miles Bennett Dyson on January 14, 2013, 04:24:53 PM

I have 2 orders of total 3x 72GH/s units (1/3 which is BTC payed), which I have all requested refunds on. On the old BTCFPGA site it says my CC order is refunded but I do not have received any money in my bank account, and it's been days. And while no status change on the BTC order I also haven't received any btc back even tho Dave said on the forum that all BTC refunds were processed.

Anyone else in the same situation?

Me. Paid with CC in August, CC company says they can only do a charge back within 60 days after I get my bill - so no chance any more.
Order status on btcfpga.com says "refunded" - but nothing hit my account so far. Asked for the refund on 10th.

Charge backs can go for six months. Unfortunately for you and according to the item below you had 120 days for merchandise not received which is more then the 60 they told you:

http://blog.unibulmerchantservices.com/visa-chargeback-reason-codes-and-time-limits/

deeplink

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

In cryptography we trust

Quote from: regular on January 15, 2013, 09:41:24 AM

Until BTC has more protection for buyers, I don't see myself ever buying any big-ticket items with them in the future. It seems scams are just too easy.

This IMHO is not an issue with Bitcoin, but with the people that allow themselves to get scammed so easily.

regular

sr. member

Activity: 297

Merit: 250

got my chargeback today too.

Until BTC has more protection for buyers, I don't see myself ever buying any big-ticket items with them in the future. It seems scams are just too easy.

Cablez

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1000

I owe my soul to the Bitcoin code...

I received either a refund or charge-back today as well. Now all that remains is the BTC I paid. Undecided

becoin

legendary

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The Manual:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/purchasing-bitcoin-asics-the-manual-136615

itsgoldbaby

full member

Activity: 157

Merit: 100

Hello!

I received my CC refund this morning, I asked for the refund on the 8th I think.

el_rlee

legendary

Activity: 1600

Merit: 1014

Quote from: Miles Bennett Dyson on January 14, 2013, 04:24:53 PM

I have 2 orders of total 3x 72GH/s units (1/3 which is BTC payed), which I have all requested refunds on. On the old BTCFPGA site it says my CC order is refunded but I do not have received any money in my bank account, and it's been days. And while no status change on the BTC order I also haven't received any btc back even tho Dave said on the forum that all BTC refunds were processed.

Anyone else in the same situation?

Me. Paid with CC in August, CC company says they can only do a charge back within 60 days after I get my bill - so no chance any more.
Order status on btcfpga.com says "refunded" - but nothing hit my account so far. Asked for the refund on 10th.

senseless

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Merit: 541

Quote from: Sigma on January 14, 2013, 11:22:23 PM

Yep, actually got the refund this morning when it seems my bank woke up. Honestly I am very happy that they seem to be at least responding and refunding still.
Imo still bASIC is simply a problem ridden company and not a scam. If they get their shit together I absolutely would purchase a unit.

Ya it would be really nice. I still have not had my refunds processed since Jan 6. I'm still "Ready to ship", after dozens of emails to all sorts of email address. No reply since I was supposed to "receive my refund within 24 hours" on Jan 11.

Miles Bennett Dyson

newbie

Activity: 40

Merit: 0

I have got my money back, well most of it. 90$ less, but might be because I use another currency and perhaps conversion fee and difference in value since I payed.
Still no bitcoin for the other orders tho, which should be easiest to pay back especially since the BTC he got is worth so much more now than when he received them.

Bogart

legendary

Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

How about this one?

http://cnysensiblepc.com/

Nemesis

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Activity: 462

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Quote from: jamesg on January 14, 2013, 08:13:12 PM

Quote from: Nemesis on January 14, 2013, 06:16:48 PM

Quote from: jamesg on January 14, 2013, 04:36:21 PM

Quote from: Miles Bennett Dyson on January 14, 2013, 04:24:53 PM

Also, anyone got anymore contact info on Davebuzz or Tom? Or if you seen them hang out in an IRC channel lately, all I got was dave's email.

Someone on IRC said Tom changed his number....

Someone please post pics of him again. His avatar was so cool.

https://plus.google.com/photos/107082417778531020969/albums

lol was this page publicly available b4 bASIC started? If it was, and ppl jumped on are deserved to be scammed.

Look at his employment and education!

Sigma

newbie

Activity: 14

Merit: 0

Quote from: senseless on January 14, 2013, 12:31:17 AM

Quote from: Sigma on January 14, 2013, 12:26:59 AM

Quote from: senseless on January 13, 2013, 11:47:59 PM

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 05:59:29 PM

Quote from: senseless on January 13, 2013, 02:59:38 PM

This whole argument is kind of moot since people aren't getting refunds at all.

Should have received a refund last week. Requested a refund on Jan 6.

Several members of this forum have reportedly received refunds already.

Been waiting for mine since Jan 6. People after me have claimed to have received them.

......

Also been waiting since Jan 6 and nothing. Although it does say "Refunded" on the order information page, my money has not shown up sadly.
Hopefully it is just held up over the weekend? We shall see I suppose.

If your status is refunded then your refund was processed. It will probably show up on monday or tuesday in your account.

My status has not been changed to refunded (signaling that it has been refunded/processed).

Yep, actually got the refund this morning when it seems my bank woke up. Honestly I am very happy that they seem to be at least responding and refunding still.
Imo still bASIC is simply a problem ridden company and not a scam. If they get their shit together I absolutely would purchase a unit.

Shadow383

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Merit: 250

Quote from: MichaelBliss on January 14, 2013, 02:36:40 PM

I wonder how many people who don't regularly follow this forum or the btcfpga forum, have no idea about what's happening, and therefore have not asked for a refund. You know, the people who trusted the bASIC team and believed their money was in good hands? The people who would never imagine that tom might have "left town".

Law of the jungle and they are just sol? @Sitrow or any of the other bASIC team members: Will all the customers be contacted w/ the advice from the forums that they should ask for a chargeback or is it up to everyone to discover this for themselves and hope there's money left for their own refund?

I only found out about the situation the other day, and even then only because I used to mine on OzCoin.
Have sent out emails to everyone involved and I guess I'll be processing a chargeback tomorrow once my bank opens.
Seriously pissed off at the whole thing. Here's hoping Tom has enough cash left to pay everyone back.

This is why you get venture capital, produce a product and then take orders.

Phinnaeus Gage

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