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becoin

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Quote from: dust on January 13, 2013, 08:57:55 PM

Becoin, that screenshot is a from a BFL order, not a bASIC one. Regardless, that is the Bitpay interface, no BTC prices were quoted on either BFL or bASIC's sites.

I know it is from BFL. I'm giving this example because at BFL the shit is quite bigger!

It is not important whose interface is this. What is important is the name of the document (Invoice) and the issuer (BF Labs).

mtminer

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Activity: 86

Merit: 10

I got my CC refund that I requested on the 8th. So not all is lost.

becoin

legendary

Activity: 3431

Merit: 1233

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:56:08 PM

Yes. Note the USD figure.

Did I say that the price is only in BTC? No. What I said is that the price is in BTC as well!

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:56:08 PM

The BTC is in brackets because it's converted at a spot price, and not the official price of the invoice (and certainly wouldn't be legally recognised as the real price).

Those are of course your free interpretations... It is laughable that if some data in official document is unofficial if it is in brackets!?

Would you show me a screenshot of a similar invoice issued by a US based vendor if you purchased a product priced ONLY in USD with your GBP credit card? I would like to see the GBP price "in brackets"?

dust

hero member

Activity: 840

Merit: 1000

Becoin, that screenshot is a from a BFL order, not a bASIC one. Regardless, that is the Bitpay interface, no BTC prices were quoted on either BFL or bASIC's sites. If you log into your bASIC account, you can find the record of your order, which unsurprisingly is denominated in USD.

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:49:24 PM

Quote from: Bogart on January 13, 2013, 08:46:28 PM

Quote from: TheOddShot on July 11, 2010, 11:17:24 PM

I have also seen the hashing performance stats on a working pre-prod unit!

Dave, can you tell us exactly what you saw, for the good of the project and those invested in it?

Thanks.

I would also like to know this; I'd guess from IRC comments that it was a PC running mining software with a board connected to it.

I am curious about this as well. It is hard to believe that bASIC had a working prototype and yet never posted video proof of it, or even flew in a third party to verify it. No ASIC company has shown a working demo yet, so it would have been a huge boost to bASIC if they were able to.

nathanrees19

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: becoin on January 13, 2013, 08:51:06 PM

Sure, no problem.

Happy now?

Yes. Note the USD figure. The BTC is in brackets because it's converted at a spot price, and not the official price of the invoice (and certainly wouldn't be legally recognised as the real price).

Phinnaeus Gage

legendary

Activity: 1918

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Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:47:55 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 08:42:28 PM

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:06:40 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 07:43:18 PM

-Product was paid for with BTC.

It's like me complaining that I paid in GBP and got back less GBP because the US dollar got weaker.

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 07:43:18 PM

-BTC were not converted to fiat and keep in one wallet.

Irrelevant. The payment is USD with live conversion, hence the refund should be USD with live conversion.

With all due respect, Nathan, for I have no qualms with you (seriously), but for discussion purposes only, consider another scenario.

What if Bitcoin 100 ceased to exist for some reason and all funds currently residing in a main wallet needed to be returned? Some of those donations were collected when Bitcoin was barely north of $2.00 USD per. Should I/we calculate the exchange rate for all the donations at the time they were given and return the exact dollar amount in BTC, or should we/I return the exact Bitcoin amount that was donated? If the former, Roger Ver would not be happy but, OTOH, the balance of Zhou Tong's donation would be pocketed. Of course, I would have ~~Dave~~ Rassah do the accounting math.

Bitcoin 100 has no such clause as to how funds would be returned if such a scenario were to play out. One reason for being such is that I don't control the wallet. Rassah and Roger are the only two people capable of moving coins. But the right thing to do would be to return the exact Bitcoin amount, for there's three reputations at stake, surely two, and most definitely at least one.

Taking a quick look at the website, I'm seeing all figures in BTC only (hence accounting should be in BTC); USD or CAD or GBP is irrelevant. If BTC is the primary or sole currency then logically the refunds should be exact BTC values.

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 08:42:28 PM

To be clear, I not trying to start a shitstorm with you Nate, but would love to continue this friendly discussion if it's warranted.

Agreed, but I doubt we'll ever agree.

Actually, I do agree with your latest assessment. I think the conversion horse has been beat enough, so I'll let it go, with somewhat seeing the light.

Thanks for your posts, Nathan.

~Bruno K~

becoin

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Activity: 3431

Merit: 1233

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:07:43 PM

Quote from: becoin on January 13, 2013, 08:00:49 PM

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 07:41:36 PM

I'm seeing only USD prices.

I'm seeing BTC price as well. If I didn't see such a price how would I know how much BTC I had to pay YOUR COMPANY?.

Screenshot?

Sure, no problem.

Happy now?

nathanrees19

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: Bogart on January 13, 2013, 08:46:28 PM

Quote from: TheOddShot on July 11, 2010, 11:17:24 PM

I have also seen the hashing performance stats on a working pre-prod unit!

Dave, can you tell us exactly what you saw, for the good of the project and those invested in it?

Thanks.

I would also like to know this; I'd guess from IRC comments that it was a PC running mining software with a board connected to it.

nathanrees19

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 08:42:28 PM

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:06:40 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 07:43:18 PM

-Product was paid for with BTC.

It's like me complaining that I paid in GBP and got back less GBP because the US dollar got weaker.

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 07:43:18 PM

-BTC were not converted to fiat and keep in one wallet.

Irrelevant. The payment is USD with live conversion, hence the refund should be USD with live conversion.

With all due respect, Nathan, for I have no qualms with you (seriously), but for discussion purposes only, consider another scenario.

What if Bitcoin 100 ceased to exist for some reason and all funds currently residing in a main wallet needed to be returned? Some of those donations were collected when Bitcoin was barely north of $2.00 USD per. Should I/we calculate the exchange rate for all the donations at the time they were given and return the exact dollar amount in BTC, or should we/I return the exact Bitcoin amount that was donated? If the former, Roger Ver would not be happy but, OTOH, the balance of Zhou Tong's donation would be pocketed. Of course, I would have ~~Dave~~ Rassah do the accounting math.

Bitcoin 100 has no such clause as to how funds would be returned if such a scenario were to play out. One reason for being such is that I don't control the wallet. Rassah and Roger are the only two people capable of moving coins. But the right thing to do would be to return the exact Bitcoin amount, for there's three reputations at stake, surely two, and most definitely at least one.

Taking a quick look at the website, I'm seeing all figures in BTC only (hence accounting should be in BTC); USD or CAD or GBP is irrelevant. If BTC is the primary or sole currency then logically the refunds should be exact BTC values.

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 08:42:28 PM

To be clear, I not trying to start a shitstorm with you Nate, but would love to continue this friendly discussion if it's warranted.

Agreed, but I doubt we'll ever agree.

Bogart

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Activity: 966

Merit: 1000

Quote from: TheOddShot on July 11, 2010, 11:17:24 PM

I have also seen the hashing performance stats on a working pre-prod unit!

Dave, can you tell us exactly what you saw, for the good of the project and those invested in it?

Thanks.

nathanrees19

full member

Activity: 196

Merit: 100

Quote from: becoin on January 13, 2013, 08:28:33 PM

If I pay with bitcoins the currency of the TRANSFER is bitcoins!

It couldn't be made more obvious that the currency of the sale is USD. You're opting to transfer an alternate currency at a spot price. The refund is therefore a transfer of an alternate currency at a spot price.

There never was a fixed BTC sale price.

Phinnaeus Gage

legendary

Activity: 1918

Merit: 1570

Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:06:40 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 07:43:18 PM

-Product was paid for with BTC.

It's like me complaining that I paid in GBP and got back less GBP because the US dollar got weaker.

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 07:43:18 PM

-BTC were not converted to fiat and keep in one wallet.

Irrelevant. The payment is USD with live conversion, hence the refund should be USD with live conversion.

With all due respect, Nathan, for I have no qualms with you (seriously), but for discussion purposes only, consider another scenario.

What if Bitcoin 100 ceased to exist for some reason and all funds currently residing in a main wallet needed to be returned? Some of those donations were collected when Bitcoin was barely north of $2.00 USD per. Should I/we calculate the exchange rate for all the donations at the time they were given and return the exact dollar amount in BTC, or should we/I return the exact Bitcoin amount that was donated? If the former, Roger Ver would not be happy but, OTOH, the balance of Zhou Tong's donation would be pocketed. Of course, I would have ~~Dave~~ Rassah do the accounting math.

Bitcoin 100 has no such clause as to how funds would be returned if such a scenario were to play out. One reason for being such is that I don't control the wallet. Rassah and Roger are the only two people capable of moving coins. But the right thing to do would be to return the exact Bitcoin amount, for there's three reputations at stake, surely two, and most definitely at least one.

To be clear, I not trying to start a shitstorm with you Nate, but would love to continue this friendly discussion if it's warranted.

Later, bud.

~Bruno K~

AmDD

legendary

Activity: 1027

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Quote from: Starlightbreaker on January 13, 2013, 07:49:29 PM

so there are still people sticking with them until march?

As long as someone is going to stepup and produce a product I'll stick it out. I dont want to lose my money but I didnt invest any I couldnt afford to lose so bring it on.

MichaelBliss

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Activity: 526

Merit: 500

Quote from: becoin on January 13, 2013, 08:28:33 PM

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:06:40 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 07:43:18 PM

-Product was paid for with BTC.

It's like me complaining that I paid in GBP and got back less GBP because the US dollar got weaker.

1. If you were quoted a price in GBP, you have the right to get same amount GBP in case of a refund.
2. How many websites have you seen pricing their products ONLY in USD and informing their customers that they accept payments in GBP as well? I know how many. ZERO!
3. If my credit card account is run in GBP and I want to purchase a product priced in USD, the credit card processing company is contacting the credit card issuer to make the currency conversion and TRANSFER on my behalf USD! If I'm paying with bitcoins what I TRASFER is bitcoins, not USD! The refund is nothing else than the reversal of a transfer! The original transfer and the reversal of the transfer must be in the same currency and in the same amount. This is why it is called refund! If I pay with bitcoins the currency of the TRANSFER is bitcoins!

Well put.

Sitarow

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Activity: 1792

Merit: 1047

Quote from: becoin on January 13, 2013, 08:00:49 PM

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 07:41:36 PM

I'm seeing only USD prices.

I'm seeing BTC price as well. If I didn't see such a price how would I know how much BTC I had to pay YOUR COMPANY?

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 07:41:36 PM

Any BTC price is clearly generated based on current market rates.

Market rates? As defined by BitPay? Okay, then I'll contact BitPay for such a refund! I don't care which company will refund my bitcoin payment.

Like BFL, and Avalon, BTCFPGA and bitcoinasic.com have included options to pay in USD and BTC. If you used a CC from a Canadian or Euro institution, then expect to have that CAD converted to USD in order to pay the invoice in full.

The same goes for BTC. During your order the BTC going rate is converted to USD in order to pay the invoice in full.

As a customer your responsibility is to pay the USD value on the invoice.
As a merchant your responsibility is to supply the product or refund the customer for the full value on the invoice for said currency, USD in this case.

That works for even Walmart, Cosco, and Amazon.

SysRun

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Activity: 616

Merit: 500

Portland Bitcoin Group Organizer

Quote from: allten on January 13, 2013, 08:25:16 PM

So, what is the best way to request a refund?
Is there a Personal Email available? PM on Bitcointalk?

Tried the website, but I'm doubtful.

thanks.

[email protected]

taken from this post.

https://www.btcfpga.com/forum/index.php?topic=1041.msg3095#msg3095

becoin

legendary

Activity: 3431

Merit: 1233

Quote from: nathanrees19 on January 13, 2013, 08:06:40 PM

Quote from: Phinnaeus Gage on January 13, 2013, 07:43:18 PM

-Product was paid for with BTC.

It's like me complaining that I paid in GBP and got back less GBP because the US dollar got weaker.

1. If you were quoted a price in GBP, you have the right to get same amount GBP in case of a refund.
2. How many websites have you seen pricing their products ONLY in USD and informing their customers that they accept payments in GBP as well? I know how many. ZERO!
3. If my credit card account is run in GBP and I want to purchase a product priced in USD, the credit card processing company is contacting the credit card issuer to make the currency conversion and TRANSFER on my behalf USD! If I'm paying with bitcoins what I TRASFER is bitcoins, not USD! The refund is nothing else than the reversal of a transfer! The original transfer and the reversal of the transfer must be in the same currency and in the same amount. This is why it is called refund! If I pay with bitcoins the currency of the TRANSFER is bitcoins!

allten

sr. member

Activity: 455

Merit: 250

You Don't Bitcoin 'till You Mint Coin

So, what is the best way to request a refund?
Is there a Personal Email available? PM on Bitcointalk?

Tried the website, but I'm doubtful.

thanks.

Sitarow

legendary

Activity: 1792

Merit: 1047

Quote from: julz on January 13, 2013, 08:00:14 PM

What email address are people using to contact Dave?

Quote

If you sent me mail prior to 1/11, and the status doesn't reflect what you expect, resend the mail. My most reliable email seems to be [email protected], but I have also found some requests in my spam folder, due to the origin of the emailer. I'll try to check that frequently.

fcmatt

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Activity: 2072

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seems like a scammer tag should be given for this mess, refunds or not.
basic was not transparent enough to deserve anything else.

Topic: . - page 9. (Read 27386 times)