Topic: [18 GH][0% Fee] A1BITCOINPOOL.COM 20 BTC BONUS PROPORTIONAL POOL (Read 9328 times)

Thanks Meni for addressing my question and correcting my previous statement.  I hope it provides value to more that just me.

I did not invent PPLNS. (I did design some of its more accurate, largely unused variants though).

Choosing PPS over PPLNS as a backup pool for hopping has no effect on expected return (assuming equal fees etc.). It does decrease payout variance, but whether this is significant is entirely up to the miner who needs to valuate what variance means to him. Variance is a thing, but it's not boolean - going with PPLNS over solo already can eliminate about 99.9% of solo variance (just for the parts when this pool is used; depends on pool's and miner's size), so eliminating what remains with PPS is generally not very significant, but preferable all else being equal.

Didn't read my last post?  Idiot is pretty strong name calling!  Please mister brilliant, elaborate on "expected value vs variance" and how it is applicable to mining multiple pools?  Think you are loosing...  And mister lazy, use more than a couple of sentences, please.  Or will your followers get confused?

You are being being exposed...and being pretty arrogant.  Three things you can't run from: Death, Taxes and your own imperfections!

And "doesn't have the basic knowledge to make a debate interesting" is pretty bold words for someone who hasn't rebutted this preposterous statement "It is possible for simultaneously hopping"  Dude, you are L-A-Z-Y!

Furthermore, I think I have demonstrated that my IQ is above 80...  81 for the win.  Go back to the van and start "preparing your counter-assault"  "I have him on ignore." Oh, your going to hide with your head in the sand

No.  I have him on ignore.  He is an idiot, knows everything and doesn't have the basic knowledge to make a debate interesting.  He can't get the concept of expected value vs variance so really there is no frame of reference to begin.

Funny... you read "All of his logical fallacies boil down to an inability to understand the difference between variance and expected return.  It is possible for simultaneously hopping to provide a significant increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term." and think  DeathAndTaxes kicked some hopper ass with logic and numbers...

Read the last part "...increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term." and read this:

"Although expected return is the best estimate available of future returns, the actual return is not likely to equal the expected return. For this reason, investors and managers would like to have an idea of how precise their estimate might be. To help quantify the precision of their estimates, you use two concepts: variance and its square root, the standard deviation.

Most people are risk averse, in that they wish to minimize the amount of risk they must endure to earn a certain level of expected return. If investors were indifferent to risk, they would not be influenced by the differences between stock A and stock B above, whereas the risk-averse investor would clearly prefer stock A. Therefore, most people want to know the range, or dispersion, of possible outcomes, as well as the likelihood of certain outcomes occurring....(so you can learn to) calculate the variance of an expected return." http://ci.columbia.edu/ci/premba_test/c0332/s6/s6_4.html

Also I know, a pools speed is inversely related to it variance...and slow pools are risky (high variance)...that is why hoppers penalize those pools while hopping.  Which will cause a miner to spend the most time in  low variance faster pools.

Now read once again "simultaneously hopping to provide a significant increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term."  If you easily get confused, that is not the clue that logic is being used to "kick(ed) some hopper ass"

The Deja Vu. It is so strong right now. Every 3-4 months this happens. I remember the last time DeathAndTaxes kicked some hopper ass with logic and numbers, and he must be preparing his counter-assault now...

On this, you are wrong!  That is my only argument...the truth...

"It is possible for simultaneously hopping"  How can you mine two pools at the sometime?  Even slicing, which I think  is confusing you, mines a slice here and there (multiple pools) but in consecutive slices and not lowest share count always wins.  You can only use your hash power one share on one pool at a time.

"He even thought your statement about variance over 1 week was some kind of evidence that hopping has reduced real world returns"  where is the quote?  That is apple and oranges... variance and evidence of hopping?  Really?  Your reading comprehension is not as good as your math...sorry...I am sure you are a great guy, but please be more specific or maybe not complain about hoping on a prop thread that encourages hopping...who is the troll?

"He knows everything and anyone who disagrees has less experience than him."  Sorry, I am interesting in talking shop about hopping on a prop thread or stating "I don't understand the current payment strategy," which A1 and answered directly.  It is not a pissing contest, just tell me something that makes sense, can be proved, or state a correction in that fashion.

"chubby going head to head with DandT...  I wonder who is going to win this..."  IF we are keeping count, you haven't returned the ball yet...:0 (kidding, lighten up)  I don't think I am smarter than you, just looking for a rational argument and you have to admit "It is possible for simultaneously hopping" was a poor choice of words and would, in effect, multiply your hash rate.  But, that is not hopping and you can't mine in parallel...agree?  I think you meant mine prop pools consecutively?  Seriously, from real world experiences and the current universe of true (not scored) prop pools, it is not nearly enough hopping opportunity to reach to make that a significant of a difference, like  175% -200% averages?

si·mul·ta·ne·ous  (sml-tn-s, sml-)
adj.
1. Happening, existing, or done at the same time.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/simultaneously

Keeping score: DT said "What opportunity cost?  Worst case scenario no pool is ever below the hop point (impossible)"  Goat, think you ever use a back up pool? Very possible! Plus, only one pool offers 100% PPS with 0% fee...MT. Red and just started offering it.  I do agree that mining multiple pools in your hopper, (not http://blockchain.info, hehe) your efficiency will increase,  but not nearly like you "think!" +1

Don't be so lazy DnT...could have just looked it up:

opportunity cost
n
(Economics) Economics the benefit that could have been gained from an alternative use of the same resource

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/opportunity+cost

oh, you were thinking you could mine in parallel...   +1

 

Update:  We are still working on trying to undo what the hacker did.  I will pay everyone once we get up and running again.  Thanks for your patience.

My title was "Contracts or PPS payouts greater than 100% are pool hopping with your hashes!" which was true for you, however, you weren't addressing it in your thread...which I read.  Also, you have PPS in your title, which I took as a reward system for mining a block ala thought you were a pool or was concerned others may assume.  (see https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf, 2.2 Pay-per-share (PPS)) to see that your nomenclature is misleading, hence, I forced a clarification.  I have been pretty consistent with my reasoning, and a tad irresponsible, but I am very imperfect.  Plus,  we both suspect a few others of doing so, now, where was I irresponsible?  GPUMAX? Yes...but a user was using a contract in that way...but not really applicable to my argument or had to do with P@40.  Moreover, I don't care! I just wanted the anti-hop miners to know what, I speculated, was indeed happening.  

If we have bad blood, I understand...but I still think we are on the same side?

"p2p for the win."  Since you don't get credit for not completing a "p2p share" by hopping out and it is PPLNS, are you getting 100% on btc or mining nmc proportionality, cause there is no true MM on p2p?  Tried it, that is what I found, now not doing so.  But, A1 prop otherwise... and I slice A1... still...sometimes... :0

No reason to continue the conversation with someone who lacks either the knowledge to make the debate interesting or the willingness to learn to make it worthwhile.  I will let him believe what he wants to.

All of his logical fallacies boil down to an inability to understand the difference between variance and expected return.  It is possible for simultaneously hopping to provide a significant increase to expected return AND have variance make measuring that difficulty in the short term.

He even thought your statement about variance over 1 week was some kind of evidence that hopping has reduced real world returns.  

Honestly it isn't worth the time.  He knows everything and anyone who disagrees has less experience than him.

Yeah. I too have established a link with cablepair ( by other means ; I did not know that he had a former failed pool till later on etc. ) and I hope that he will eventually pay me those BTC, even if it is not much.

I feel integrity matters much more than a mere 5 bucks. Losing your reputation over 5 bucks is worthy of a facepalm. 

Amen Bro!  But I have given A1 enough grief...waiting to see how it plays out...  point well taken!  Maybe he will notice his pools thread is really active...

You need to hire the paper boy in "Better Off Dead" to get your $5.  You'll net $3!

I don't think we disagree?  and you were hopping on a grand scale, which is awesome.  I just had a problem calling a proxy and mining pool, that is all my friend.  And I am wrong a lot...right just sometimes so I like to defend my arguments until I end up being wrong, again.

"Chubby you are a long time hopper but you don't know what the fuck is going on... "  Really?  I covered why your returns can be lower than theoretical not to long ago.  Again, I appreciate your honesty and testimonials cause it also supports my experiences...and I haven't been doing it that long...just been making mistakes and learning as I go.  Unless the pool is over 50 GB, like you prefer, it can take months for payout based on a few hours of mining.  And there far less than 15 prop pools to keep you that busy, so when two pools are in the hop range, you can only mine one or average the two...and the opportunity mine multiple pools consecutively keeps shrinking, not growing.  Everything I find or figure out, I share with you and other peers...not sure what you use to hop, so I made an assumption  So, I am no expert, but clueless?  Come on bro...



DandT misquoted me and I made a spectacle of it, that was all...this is a forum...and I am looking for enough posts to do the cool banner stuff...

Yeah. I like how you guys keep on blabbing about the payment system when it seems the OP has gone and left lots of unpaid shares

Hope he does give me the 0.92775905 BTC I am owed after he manages to recover that hacked database.

DT - Sorry the question was for Meni Rosenfeld, who designed PPLNS.  You are not an expert on PPLNS and he is, sorry bro.  Your reading comprehension is not good as expressed by this statement "I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical."  BTW, if you haven't figured it out by now, I know the details of hopping...better than you I think..?  And the more you and a few others try and help me out with responses to my sarcastic, loaded questions, about hopping, the more it shows you don't completely understand hopping concepts enough to teach us something new on a prop pool thread...who is trolling who? Please go to this mythical non-p2p 0% MM pool and work on their thread? Kidding, I love the debate and I always enjoy to learn something new.   Really, I try to provided a educated balance to your arguments...sprinkled with humor and whit (bite lip please)  Go back and read my posts and you will see "I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical." was...in fact...retarded and we are all now dumber for reading it.

See, goat and I are telling you and your assumption are not as extreme as you state.  Probably,  since you have very limited experience with hopping or have not analyzed the real returns from it.  Output from simulations are more favorable than in production.  Also, goat has given another testimonial on his total efficiency.

AFAIK PPLNS is good for 24/7 miners, everything else can be used by a hopper to achieve maximum efficiency.  I would still like to hear from MR, since you can't provide more insight due to you poor reading comprehension...sorry

This is a prop pool that encurages hopping, so what is the topic?  Should we all just whine that the pool might not recover?

Mt. Red is 100% MM PPS... ~101% by your calculation...

What opportunity cost?  Worst case scenario no pool is ever below the hop point (impossible) so you always are mining on fallback pool an thus "only" earn 100% PPS value.  Oh noes I "only" get full fair value.  Anytime any one of the prop pools is below the hop point you are earning higher than 100% PPS value. 

So the lower bound under the theoretical and non-existent scenario that no pools is below the hop point is 100% PPS.
The upper bound w/ just 1 hoppable pool is 128% PPS.  With 5 or 6 pools is closer to 200%.


I thought you said profits from hoping were only theoretical.  Variance doesn't matter to anyone except idiots who "need" a reward ever couple hours.  Expected value is expected value and over the long run a PPLNS pools with lower fees than a PPS pool will have a higher expected value.  Given there are PPLNS pools w/ no fees and merged mining the expected value can be ~101% PPS.

You guys wouldn't mind trying to get a bit closer to topic, would you?

In theory, but with the current number of pools? Don't think so...you can mine at every pool at the best time...I consider it the opportunity cost of mining with in the current universe of prop pools.

What about PPLNS as a backup pool? Would a hopper be be better off in a less variable reward system like PPS to maintain higher efficiency, as opposed to the less popular mining strategy of less efficiency?

Analysis of Bitcoin Pooled Mining Reward Systems, Appendix B (Pool-hopping in proportional pools). There's no limit to how much you can gain under the right conditions.

By the way, "anti-hopping measures" by bitcoinpool et al are a joke. Deepbit's stats hiding isn't that effective either.

DnT, he had me fooled too, but martychubbs is just trolling and crying as he sees the last prop pools slowly disappear.