[18 GH][0% Fee] A1BITCOINPOOL.COM 20 BTC BONUS PROPORTIONAL POOL - page 5.

sadpandatech

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: organofcorti on January 28, 2012, 02:06:58 AM

Quote from: sadpandatech on January 28, 2012, 02:00:02 AM

How often does someone who has enough hash rate to hop profitably really have any significant downtime?n it is worth it imho.

Hop profitably or mine on a pool profitably. If you really meant 'hop', I don't understand what you're saying. Which probably says more about me than you, but still - erklären Sie mir bitte?

die Welt kann nie wissen! well, atleast what the heck I'm babbling about, anyhows. ;p

Hop profitability; for instance someone with 200MH is not going to get enough shares before x%(40%?) of current difficulty shares to make it worth moving to another pool on prop. Someone much more proficient at the math would have to explain it better. But the jist is that on proportional unless you are one of the highest hash rates at the pool you lose your butt big time after the top hashers move on.
I'm not sure if that's what you were asking or if that is the only part I had not described very well though.

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 28, 2012, 02:29:03 AM

..... of getting rapped by hoppers.....

Or hopped by rappers! Ahha ha haa! Ahem. :sigh:

Sorry about that.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: sadpandatech on January 28, 2012, 02:00:02 AM

How often does someone who has enough hash rate to hop profitably really have any significant downtime? A safe measure is adjusting the % of hash rate tolerance and the time tolerance. We also have the benefit of having a human checking such things. I'd like to think the pool op would not punish his highest hashers if they had a situation that would trigger a drop of their shares. It would be pretty obvious if the same person just happened to have 'problems' several times in a row after acquiring the optimal shares.

So totally subjective human checking. Yeah that would be a pool I would never use.

PPS, PPLNS, SMPPS = guaranteed hop proof AND doesn't punish miners who disconnect.
scheme full of human subjective fail = not guaranteed hop proof AND punishes miners AND subject to misuse and abuse.

Also luck = variance. PPLNS has just as much variance as prop thus in the short run luck plays just as much of a factor in payouts. So it "rewards" luck just as much as prop does. Of course thinking a pool is superior based on luck is dubious. This isn't a single hand of blackjack this is billions of shares per year. It all evens out anyways.

There is absolutely no purpose for prop to exist under any circumstances except to give the uninformed, clueless, and stupid the "option" of getting rapped by hoppers who annihilate their earnings.

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

Quote from: sadpandatech on January 28, 2012, 02:00:02 AM

How often does someone who has enough hash rate to hop profitably really have any significant downtime?n it is worth it imho.

Hop profitably or mine on a pool profitably. If you really meant 'hop', I don't understand what you're saying. Which probably says more about me than you, but still - erklären Sie mir bitte?

sadpandatech

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on January 27, 2012, 11:57:48 PM

Quote from: sadpandatech on January 27, 2012, 08:13:48 PM

I got a quick fix for you. Anyone that drops off more than 10% of their starting mining power for more than x time. drop their shares. period. the only people that will put off is the hoppers.

And anyone who loses connectivity, power outage, mining crash while they are at work.

yea, yea. I knew that someone wold come and say that. Guess that's what I get for not spelling it out..

How often does someone who has enough hash rate to hop profitably really have any significant downtime? A safe measure is adjusting the % of hash rate tolerance and the time tolerance. We also have the benefit of having a human checking such things. I'd like to think the pool op would not punish his highest hashers if they had a situation that would trigger a drop of their shares. It would be pretty obvious if the same person just happened to have 'problems' several times in a row after acquiring the optimal shares.

yes, other options require less human interaction. But prop pays for luck, and if it can be made to work then it is worth it imho.

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

Quote from: Inaba on January 28, 2012, 12:12:35 AM

Err... n=1=solo mining. n=0.5 would be... umm, kind of impossible I think? A share is atomic.

I think mostly people use the N in PPLNS as shorthand for N*D shares, not N shares.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: Inaba on January 28, 2012, 12:12:35 AM

Err... n=1=solo mining. n=0.5 would be... umm, kind of impossible I think? A share is atomic.

Sorry n=1*difficulty, n=0.5*difficulty.

Inaba

legendary

Activity: 1260

Merit: 1000

Err... n=1=solo mining. n=0.5 would be... umm, kind of impossible I think? A share is atomic.

A1BITCOINPOOL

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Thanks for the information, I will give at least a one round notice.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: A1BITCOINPOOL on January 27, 2012, 11:35:38 PM

I'm probably going to switch to pplns. I was thinking about making n= 1/2 of the difficulty, or is that the high for n.

I believe that is a rather low n. Most use n=difficulty. Larger n smooths out the variance but it also can seem "unfair" to a new user. It isn't but I believe that is why an n=1 is commonly used. Still n= 0.5 is still hop proof just be aware that a significant number of rounds will go unpaid. Nobody loses anything but the variance can be "rocky".

Also I agree with the post above. Meni likely knows more about mining math, reward systems, and mining exploits than any 20 people I know. He has an ebook which covers every reward methods with pros, cons, simulations, analysis, and lots of math. It should be required reading for any pool op.

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

I like n=1. Good balance of time to payout and variance. But DGM is much more configurable, and with a few pools ops now with lots of experience, and with the inventor (Meni Rosenfeld) being an active forum member, you should be able to get a bunch of advice and maybe even help.

My advice: whichever system you choose, don't change payout methods mid round Wink

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: sadpandatech on January 27, 2012, 08:13:48 PM

I got a quick fix for you. Anyone that drops off more than 10% of their starting mining power for more than x time. drop their shares. period. the only people that will put off is the hoppers.

And anyone who loses connectivity, power outage, mining crash while they are at work.

There are proven hop proof solutions. Instead of methods which punish non-hoppers why not just use a solution which is ... and call me crazy ... actually hop proof like PPS, PPLNS, SMPSS (and varaints) and DGM?

A1BITCOINPOOL

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

I'm probably going to switch to pplns. I was thinking about making n= 1/2 of the difficulty, or is that the high for n.

Inaba

legendary

Activity: 1260

Merit: 1000

Right, so it would be fine for DGM to use a $block_reward = 40 instead of 50...

But now that I think about it, even if you changed the block reward it wouldn't matter. The score is independent of the block reward, it just divides up whatever you feed it as the reward appropriately, according to contribution.

Heh... you could even random(1, 50) the block reward, then award whatever isn't doled out to a lucky participant(s).

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

No, I imagine it would have to be ongoing. You just wouldn't be able to change the proportion of btc for the gamble, but that's no deal breaker.

Inaba

legendary

Activity: 1260

Merit: 1000

Not if it's in perpetuity. Are you talking about a one time thing?

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

So you just don't include the other 10btc distributed randomly then? Won't that have an effect on the overall score?

Inaba

legendary

Activity: 1260

Merit: 1000

It could, just set the block reward to 40 instead of 50 and DGM should be fine.

organofcorti

donator

Activity: 2058

Merit: 1007

Poor impulse control.

There was a Russian pool that did a gambling thing that was fair. Nothing wrong a with a gambling payout system as long as it's transparent and can't be gamed.

There's an idea for you A1BITCOINPOOL - use a payout system that gives a slightly random payout. Eg, start with PPLNS but base the payout on 40btc instead of 50. Then split the remaining 10 btc among ten random miners. You have fair payouts with some luck involved. I'm not sure if this would work with DGM.

sadpandatech

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 500

Actually, I would prefer Prop. If it were not for the hopping thing, you have that little gambling itch covered where finding blocks quick, pays better.... I would probably only do that if I had 5GH+ at present dif though.

Topic: [18 GH][0% Fee] A1BITCOINPOOL.COM 20 BTC BONUS PROPORTIONAL POOL - page 5. (Read 9275 times)